The Order of Salvation

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Robert Pate

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How much of the rest of the Bible do you think is not of God? My suspicions on that? Everything that you don't agree with. But whether or not that is the case, it is clear that you and I have nothing more to discuss, since you have no acceptable authority to base your opinions on. In rejecting part of the Scriptures, you have made null the whole of the Scriptures.
 

Robert Pate

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How much of the rest of the Bible do you think is not of God? My suspicions on that? Everything that you don't agree with. But whether or not that is the case, it is clear that you and I have nothing more to discuss, since you have no acceptable authority to base your opinions on. In rejecting part of the Scriptures, you have made null the whole of the Scriptures.
The historical Gospel of Jesus Christ calls everything into question, even the Bible itself. Paul said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" Galatians 1:8. The Gospel is our authority. Are you sure that you know what it is?
 

JBO

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The historical Gospel of Jesus Christ calls everything into question, even the Bible itself. Paul said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" Galatians 1:8. The Gospel is our authority. Are you sure that you know what it is?
I am sure of three things here. I am sure that the gospel is presented in the Bible. I am sure that Jesus Christ has not called the Bible into question. And I am sure that you have completely misunderstood Paul's message in Galatians 1:8.
 
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Zao is life

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Anything that we do is a work. Faith is not what saves us. What saves us is the doing and the dying of Jesus. Faith is what makes the Gospel ours.
By grace, through faith. Without faith we receive no forgiveness.
On The day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard Peter's Gospel and were convicted by the Holy Spirit of their need for Christ, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.
The Holy Spirit preceded their faith since He it was who convicted them.

Your words above make you contradict yourself even while you accuse others of not getting it.
 
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Zao is life

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Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with forgiveness. Our forgiveness is based upon the doing and the dying of Jesus. "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" Hebrews 9:22.
True. And our forgiveness that was bought by Jesus comes to us through the fact that we believe in Him, and all His name means, and all He did for us (believing, a.k.a "faith"). And without the testimony of the Holy Spirit, we will not believe.

So the Holy Spirit always precedes our faith, and this is God's grace, and when we believe, our faith causes us to change our minds and hearts (repentance), and this is God's grace.​
 
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Zao is life

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Faith is impossible unless one turns their mind and heart toward Christ.
It's the other way around, IMO. It's impossible for anyone to turn their heart and mind toward Christ unless they believe (faith).

And it's impossible for anyone to believe (faith) unless the Holy Spirit wasn't at work, quickening the dead.
 
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JBO

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It's the other way around, IMO. It's impossible for anyone to turn their heart and mind toward Christ unless they believe (faith).

And it's impossible for anyone to believe (faith) unless the Holy Spirit wasn't at work, quickening the dead.
Faith leads to quickening, not the other way around as you seem to be saying. That is, faith does not come from being born again; rather, those with faith are born again. Now it is true that the Holy Spirit was working. And the major way in which He works is through the written word, the Bible. Faith comes by hearing (or reading) about Christ.
 

Zao is life

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Faith leads to quickening, not the other way around as you seem to be saying
I can't accept that what you say above is true. Because it's the same as saying that the Holy Spirit only quickens if the person who is quickened somehow miraculously starts believing, without the conviction or testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Yet without the conviction and testimony of the Holy Spirit, no one can believe.​
 
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Robert Pate

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By grace, through faith. Without faith we receive no forgiveness.

The Holy Spirit preceded their faith since He it was who convicted them.

Your words above make you contradict yourself even while you accuse others of not getting it.
The Holy Spirit is only given to those that hear and believe the Gospel. "This only would I learn of you. did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2. God must see you in Christ before he gives you his Holy Spirit.
 
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WalterandDebbie

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Robert Pate said Oct 29, 2023

Monday 11-13-23 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Cheshvan 28 5784, 52nd. Fall Day

“Faith without works is dead” is a phrase that appears in the Bible, in the book of James 2:14-26. The passage explains that faith alone is not enough to save a person, but that faith must be accompanied by good works.

The passage gives examples of how faith and works are intertwined, such as how Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, and how Rahab the harlot was justified by her works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way. The passage concludes that just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead 12345.

Love, Walter And Debbie
 
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Zao is life

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God must see you in Christ before he gives you his Holy Spirit.
God saw all the descendants of Adam in Christ before all creation. Only Christ existed before creation:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will -- Ephesians 1:4-5

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him.

Firstly, Man does not call God. God calls man. God called Adam in the Garden of Eden after he sinned. Adam would not have looked for God. He was hiding from God.

God called Noah and told him (the Word of God) the end of all flesh had come before Him, and Noah believed what he heard, acted accordingly, and so was saved (faith comes by first hearing from God's Spirit).

God called Abraham and told him (the Word of God) that he would have a son, and in his seed all the families of the earth would be blessed, and Abraham believed God, and since then all the seed of Abraham who believe the Word of God like Abraham did, are saved, and we are saved through the seed of Abraham in Whom all the nations of the earth are blessed.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

The Holy Spirit first calls and testifies. Without the testimony of the Holy Spirit we will not either believe, or reject what we were not told by the Holy Spirit:

John 15
26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
27 And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
We hear the Word of God. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin, and of God's righteousness, eternal judgment and salvation through Jesus.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying both to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him:

John 3
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Only Christ existed before creation:


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will -- Ephesians 1:4-5

Adam (mankind) did not exist before the foundation of the world, but Christ existed before the foundation of the world, therefore Adam (and all the descendants of Adam) is predestined to be saved by Christ through faith in Christ. But only the one who does not call God a liar when God calls him, but instead believes God and responds accordingly, is saved.

Otherwise (as in Calvinism) God purposed before creation to saw Adam in two so that only one part of the descendants of Adam would be called by the Holy Spirit, convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit, so as to be saved.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him.
 
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Robert Pate

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Monday 11-13-23 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Cheshvan 28 5784, 52nd. Fall Day

“Faith without works is dead” is a phrase that appears in the Bible, in the book of James 2:14-26. The passage explains that faith alone is not enough to save a person, but that faith must be accompanied by good works.

The passage gives examples of how faith and works are intertwined, such as how Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, and how Rahab the harlot was justified by her works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way. The passage concludes that just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead 12345.

Love, Walter And Debbie
James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer believes in Jesus, but also believes that one must keep the law of Moses. The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1, not to Gentile Christians. James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21. James sent men to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21. Paul never did say that "Faith without works is dead". The thief on the cross was saved without works. He was saved by faith alone.
 

WalterandDebbie

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James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer believes in Jesus, but also believes that one must keep the law of Moses. The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1, not to Gentile Christians. James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21. James sent men to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21. Paul never did say that "Faith without works is dead". The thief on the cross was saved without works. He was saved by faith alone.
Disagree.
 
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Robert Pate

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God saw all the descendants of Adam in Christ before all creation. Only Christ existed before creation:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will -- Ephesians 1:4-5

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him.

Firstly, Man does not call God. God calls man. God called Adam in the Garden of Eden after he sinned. Adam would not have looked for God. He was hiding from God.

God called Noah and told him (the Word of God) the end of all flesh had come before Him, and Noah believed what he heard, acted accordingly, and so was saved (faith comes by first hearing from God's Spirit).

God called Abraham and told him (the Word of God) that he would have a son, and in his seed all the families of the earth would be blessed, and Abraham believed God, and since then all the seed of Abraham who believe the Word of God like Abraham did, are saved, and we are saved through the seed of Abraham in Whom all the nations of the earth are blessed.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

The Holy Spirit first calls and testifies. Without the testimony of the Holy Spirit we will not either believe, or reject what we were not told by the Holy Spirit:

John 15
26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
27 And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
We hear the Word of God. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin, and of God's righteousness, eternal judgment and salvation through Jesus.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying both to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him:

John 3
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Only Christ existed before creation:


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will -- Ephesians 1:4-5

Adam (mankind) did not exist before the foundation of the world, but Christ existed before the foundation of the world, therefore Adam (and all the descendants of Adam) is predestined to be saved by Christ through faith in Christ. But only the one who does not call God a liar when God calls him, but instead believes God and responds accordingly, is saved.

Otherwise (as in Calvinism) God purposed before creation to saw Adam in two so that only one part of the descendants of Adam would be called by the Holy Spirit, convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit, so as to be saved.

1 John 5
10 He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.

It's the Holy Spirit testifying to the one who believes, and to the one who does not believe. No one can make God a liar unless God has called him.
No doubt about it you are a Calvinist. Calvinist believe that God predestinates some to heaven and damns the rest to hell.

This is one of the most perverted doctrines ever to come out of the mind of a man. It makes God out to be a merciless tyrant that delights in sending people to hell. The fact that you believe this about God means that you don't trust in him. How could anyone have faith in a God that predestinates people hell before they are born. Only a Calvinist. Calvinism is self defeating.
 

Robert Pate

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Disagree.
The book of James is not a creditable book. It was one of the first books of the Bible. I am sure that James came into a full knowledge of Paul's Gospel and justification by faith at a later date. But for now, it is more Jewish than it is Christian.
 

Zao is life

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No doubt about it you are a Calvinist. Calvinist believe that God predestinates some to heaven and damns the rest to hell.

This is one of the most perverted doctrines ever to come out of the mind of a man. It makes God out to be a merciless tyrant that delights in sending people to hell. The fact that you believe this about God means that you don't trust in him. How could anyone have faith in a God that predestinates people hell before they are born. Only a Calvinist. Calvinism is self defeating.
And you either never read my post, or read it and completely misunderstood it, or willfully misunderstood it and came here to speak about a theology my post opposed, and falsely claim my post advocates for.

If the last one of the possibilities is the case, then you are a deceiver.

Those who gave my post a "Like" understood that my post goes counter to Calvinism.
 
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Zao is life

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James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer believes in Jesus, but also believes that one must keep the law of Moses. The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1, not to Gentile Christians. James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21. James sent men to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21. Paul never did say that "Faith without works is dead". The thief on the cross was saved without works. He was saved by faith alone.
Neither of you understand what James meant by "works", or why he said it.