The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

[face2face]

Actually, those who believe in the immortal soul might be able to provide some Scripture to support this idea of a Spiritual Body with fingers toes, tongue etc needing a rotten corpse to reunite with?

 

[MatthewG]

One also as to consider that if Jesus came back as the (Word of God) soul / spirit from the dead. People would never have seen him. He had a special resurrection.

 

[face2face]

One also as to consider that if Jesus came back as the (Word of God) soul / spirit from the dead. People would never have seen him. He had a special resurrection.

best to put that keyboard away Matt...read the entire thread and try to answer some of the ridiculous beliefs these guys have in forcing a Literal reading of Luke 16:19.

 

[David in NJ]

The Parable is simply a look inside of the state of the Realm of the dead, which paradise, and the prison part of sheol - was separated from God - for a time until Jesus overcame death.

MatthewG ,
Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable but was/is actual reality just as you correctly pointed out = "realm of the dead vs paradise"

 

[face2face]

Something else just dawned on me regarding this false belief.

If Abraham and Lazarus and all those faithful before them, have already been rewarded BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place?

Also, this means the Apostle Paul wasnt told as per Hebrews 11:39-40.

 

[David in NJ]

Something else just dawned on me regarding this false belief.

If Abraham and Lazarus and all those faithful before them, have already been rewarded BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place?

Also, this means the Apostle Paul wasnt told as per Hebrews 11:39-40.

Your imagination is both wandering and wondering = you're going in circles around a non-parable parable......

It is good to wonder, just do not wander from the Truth.......

 

[MatthewG]

MatthewG ,
Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable but was/is actual reality just as you correctly pointed out = "realm of the dead vs paradise"

Its still all in the realm of the dead. It was a parable but it wouldnt be understood until the holy spirit dropped.

The aposltes would teach about it.

The reason it is a parbale is because pharisees were around him while he spoke unto his disciples.


Just did a study on it.

A look at Luke Chapter 16 - May God Guide this for you by the spirit

The Parable of the Dishonest Manager Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Jesus starts talking about a parable of the dishonest manager. Luk 15:1 Then drew near unto...

www.christianityboard.com

So atlest one can find out what is true.

 

[MatthewG]

best to put that keyboard away Matt...read the entire thread and try to answer some of the ridiculous beliefs these guys have in forcing a Literal reading of Luke 16:19.

People are people.

 

[David in NJ]

Its still all in the realm of the dead. It was a parable but it wouldnt be understood until the holy spirit dropped.

The aposltes would teach about it.

The reason it is a parbale is because pharisees were around him while he spoke unto his disciples.


Just did a study on it.

A look at Luke Chapter 16 - May God Guide this for you by the spirit

The Parable of the Dishonest Manager Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Jesus starts talking about a parable of the dishonest manager. Luk 15:1 Then drew near unto...

www.christianityboard.com

So atlest one can find out teith.

That does not make it a parable and this is a common error.

Did Jesus only speak parables to the pharisees and sadducees? = No

Here is JESUS speaking direct Truth to the pharisees, sadducees and general audience Jews, some who believed and those who were against Him: John ch8

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”


34Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”


42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

48Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever dude.

Only in private did he reveal thing to his disciples, but when others were around he would speak in parables.

Matthew 13:
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: 'I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.'


“Another simile spake he to them: ‘The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.’ All these things spake Jesus in similes to the multitudes, and without a simile he was not speaking to them, that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, ‘I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.’ Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, ‘Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭33‬-‭36‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Matthew 13:33-36 (YLT98) - Another simile spake he to them: ‘T | YouVersion

Another simile spake he to them: ‘The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.’ All these things spake Jesus in s

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

Thinking about the realm of the dead, surely was the state of affairs hidden.

Well… that was a parable of the state of affairs.


Why doesnt anyone listen?

 

[David in NJ]

Whatever dude.

Only in private did he reveal thing to his disciples, but when others were around he would speak in parables.

Matthew 13:
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: 'I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.'


“Another simile spake he to them: ‘The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.’ All these things spake Jesus in similes to the multitudes, and without a simile he was not speaking to them, that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through the prophet, saying, ‘I will open in similes my mouth, I will utter things having been hidden from the foundation of the world.’ Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, ‘Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭33‬-‭36‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Matthew 13:33-36 (YLT98) - Another simile spake he to them: ‘T | YouVersion

Another simile spake he to them: ‘The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.’ All these things spake Jesus in s

bible.com

FALSE Statement = "Only in private did he reveal thing to his disciples, but when others were around he would speak in parables."

You were shown in John ch8 where JESUS spoke directly, without any parable or simile, to a audience of believers and non-believers.

Saying "whatever" is avoidance of Truth.

 

[MatthewG]

Whatever dude.

You wont trick me.

he spoke parable to those in saw in John 8.


Mysteries, hidden things.

Just had Jesus said would be fulfilled.

Matthew 13:
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: 'I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.'

 

[David in NJ]

Whatever dude.

You wont trick me.

Your right, i will not trick you!

Your dilemma is that you are currently "tricked" - but not by me!

 

[MatthewG]

Read what i stated…

Dont have to be a jerk about it, @David in NJ

 

[MatthewG]

he spoke parable to those he saw in John 8.


Mysteries, hidden things.

Just had Jesus said would be fulfilled.

Matthew 13:
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: 'I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.'

 

[MatthewG]

And when do we see jesus reveal something to his disciples when he was alone,


Go read about the parable of the sower and youll find out he did express more to disciples in private. Even though they wouldnt understand until the holy spirit dropped.

@David in NJ im not so much of a fool as people can take me for.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You said: "This is not hard to understand but evidently it is very difficult for you to accept because you are so locked into the false teachings of the apostate church. Where is your "love for the truth"?"

i just read this last statement of yours and found it to be quite judgmental and against the will of God for your walk.

The fact that i am pointing out to you that Luke 16:14-31 is not a parable is the Love of the Truth and for you.

Secondly, i am not part of any apostate church as i belong to Christ and am sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, you need some self inspection here as it is you who are "locked in" on claiming a 'parable' when it is not.

What is it in Luke 16:19-31 that you disagree with?

Do you believe in soul sleep?

Dear David in NJ,
What I stated is completely in line with the teachings of Christ. Have you not read what Christ said to the Pharisees?

All "churches" in the world are apostate; all 2,000 different sects and denominations. If they are not, scripture is wrong because it clearly teaches what was going to happen to the churches after the Apostles deaths.

The apostate church teaches a works based belief system which they say will save a person. It cannot. This teaching comes from "another gospel" which is taught by Satan through the spirit of anti-Christ. When a believer mixes works with faith, they commit the sin that leads to death. At that point, the believer becomes "worse than the first (Mat 12:43:45).

Do you think that you can avoid keeping this prophecy of Mat 12:43-45?

You cannot because no one can who has received the Early Rain and has been called out from the world. I spent the first 44 years of my life in the apostate church and was fully deceived. It wasn't until 2005 that Christ came to me a second time and pulled me out.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Do you believe that Christ is referring to His Gospel in the verse above? He is not. He is talking about the "another gospel" which Satan will teach to His Elect. The "nations" are the thoughts and beliefs of the believer. After Satan's gospel has been fully accepted by one of Christ's Elect, they are ready for the "end to come".

This scripture below describes what happens when the "end" comes to an Elect believer:

1Thes 15:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Christ comes to them "at night" because they are walking in darkness. They are in Satan's apostate church where he is masquerading as Christ. The believer dwells in that church in "peace and safety" because, like you, they believe they are saved and are following the truth of Christ. However, they are utterly deceived and have become a "man of sin". Christ even said this deception is so powerful that it could deceive the "very Elect" if it were possible:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The only reason it was not possible was because the Very Elect (the Apostles) were converted prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the church. But for everyone else in the church since the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ, it will deceive them and make them "worse than the first". No one can avoid it happening to them.

After an Elect believer has been fully corrupted by Satan in His apostate church, the end will come and bring "sudden destruction" to them. This destruction comes with the Second Coming of Christ. At that time, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain upon the Elect believer (what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost). With that gift, the believer's spiritual blindness is healed. From the truth they will now receive, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that occurred within themselves (God's temple). The man of sin, whom they became, will also be revealed to them. After this happens, the judgment of the Day of the Lord will begin. It starts by removing the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot from within the believer. Both are "taken" and cast into the Lake of Fire:

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood (represents the judgment of the Day of the Lord) came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two (one believer, one flesh) be in the field; the one shall be taken (Man of Sin), and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot), and the other left (child of God).

The Man of Sin is the child of the Devil who has the spirit of anti-Christ. The Great Harlot is the "worsen" carnal nature. After both are removed from within the believer, all that will remain is the newly born child of God. This is also taught in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

What I have just explained above is what spiritually happens when an Elect believer is converted. Conversion requires both the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment).

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT, and with FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of Fire will "thoroughly purge his floor". In other words, the baptism of Fire will remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the worsened carnal nature from the believer. After this judgment is complete, the Holy Spirit will fully govern the believer. Only then will the believer be able to walk by the Spirit and in truth.

You asked:
Do you believe in soul sleep?

"Soul sleep" is not a scriptural term.

Here is what scripture teaches about death:

When a person physically dies, they are dead and they have no consciousness. At that time, their spirit returns to God.

If the person is saved, scripture equates their state of death to be like "sleep". Though they are dead and have no consciousness, they are spiritually alive. This means that the person has no sin within them.

That truth is what Christ is referring to below:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

After Christ died on the cross, He was literally dead for three days. He had no consciousness. He, too, entered into "sleep" like His Elect do. Upon His resurrection, He was given a new spiritual body and life returned to Him. However, like His Elect, He never spiritually died:

John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

The spiritual term "bones" represents spiritual life. If the bones are said to be broken, the person has spiritually died. In contrast, if the bones are said not to be broken, the person is spiritually alive.

That is what this prophecy below concerning Christ means:

Psa 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

The bodily resurrection from the grave for the Elect is still a future event. It will occur at the end of the this present age. All the Apostles and other Elect who have died are still in the grave and have no consciousness. They are not in heaven looking down upon us as most people believe. This false understanding of death is commonly stated at funerals to give comfort to the loved ones of the deceased but there is no truth in it.

Joe

 

[David in NJ]

@FaithWillDo - Joe says:

"Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Do you believe that Christ is referring to His Gospel in the verse above? He is not. He is talking about the "another gospel" which Satan will teach to His Elect."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Joe,
You are currently involved with people who are void of the Holy Spirit of Truth.

It is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that in Matthew 24:14 JESUS is speaking of His Gospel of the Kingdom as a Witness to all nations.

Acts chapter 1 confirms this as well as many many scripture passages.

And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

[MatthewG]

Some may disregard this message from Paul,

But he made it to the whole world; he knew.


if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

Do you think he i just speaking jewishly - 'as like a hyperbole'?