The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

[Helen]

I do not see that. For I hold to the penal substitution theory of atonement and do not define myself as a Calvinist.
I believe that the verses before it do, however, say that God punished Christ to satisfy the demands of justice. And the verse in question does substantiate the idea.

Amen...

For me , Isa 53 ...."He saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied."
"It pleased the Lord to bruise Him..." etc....

The whole motivation is Love...from Gen to Rev...always.

 

[Helen]

I agree with others here... That although God"laid on Him the iniquity of us all", the death of the Son of God was voluntary... God did not sacrifice His Son... The Son sacrificed Himself.

 

[Helen]

Well I am glad that all these are just "theories"...
In other words ....opinions.

 

[Helen]

Can you point to one?

That want to live in sin? I imagine that's what you mean, right? Who exactly is it here on this forum that states that they want to live in sin?

Much love! And looking for an answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about members of Christianty Board, "Loving people living community".

If you mean, there are people out there on the internet saying . . . anything . . all sorts of things . . .

Of course, there are.

But you said, "live as they want." As if people claim salvation, but that they want to sin, and claim grace as a cover for that. Hm.

But as far as being called things, and having people act towards you in an unchristian manner, I get plenty of that right here!

What about people on this forum? Anyone saying that they want to sin? Who?

Much love!

You didn't understand Marks...
I AM SAYING that there are persons that say they could live as they want and still claim to be saved and they use grace as a cover.

You reply to the above was:
Hm.

Go to that site I gave you and check it out.
Your "Hm" will become "WOW".

Trust me on this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes...as in....the soul that sins...it shall live. Didn't the devil say..."you won't die!" It's all just peace and prosperity!

Many see grace as a free pass on sinning. It is called "the gospel OF grace." The real gospel is the gospel ACCORDING to grace.

This confusion is due to seeing grace as forgiveness due to a religious status instead of empowerment from God by faith. These will look up grace in a man made dictionary where it says..."unmerited favour"...and then fully trusting that Merriams or Websters is here to lead us to God will ignore the verses in the bible that DO explain grace....from God's perspective.

But people will grasp at anything to "get off the hook" for sins. That doesn't make it true.

Agreed.
Some book writers call this Cheap Grace or Easy Believism.
OSAS is another name for it.

I'm truly sorry for this because these persons are living under a false sense of security and the preachers that teach this are not doing them any good service.

Revelation says that nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
Rev. 21:27 --- and, it's just common sense.

Also this idea of being born again is beginning to annoy me.
Not because it ISN'T true...IT IS TRUE...
But some feel that if they walked down an isle and "ACCEPTED" Jesus...that's the end of that.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK. So arguing that on this forum would be the proverbial Straw Man?

Much love!

I don't know what you mean....

We were speaking about persons that think they could live as they want and sin all they want and still be saved.

I stated that I don't know of anyone on this forum..and above is your reply.

 

[justbyfaith]

I consider it to be the gospel itself that there are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of God...justice and mercy. Justice requires that God punish sin exactly and that the full penalty be exacted from the sinner. Mercy desires that less than the punishment for the iniquity deserved be exacted from the sinner.

These two attributes in the heart of God are not reconciled except in the Cross of Jesus Christ. Christ took the penalty for our sins so that justice could be satisfied and God also show mercy to the sinner. He died in our place. Is this not the gospel itself?

Therefore to reject this understanding is to reject the gospel itself; to not hold it in memory; and to not be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[John Caldwell]

I consider it to be the gospel itself that there are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of God...justice and mercy. Justice requires that God punish sin exactly and that the full penalty be exacted from the sinner. Mercy desires that less than the punishment for the iniquity deserved be exacted from the sinner.

These two attributes in the heart of God are not reconciled except in the Cross of Jesus Christ. Christ took the penalty for our sins so that justice could be satisfied and God also show mercy to the sinner. He died in our place. Is this not the gospel itself?

Therefore to reject this understanding is to reject the gospel itself; to not hold it in memory; and to not be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

I agree that God's attributes are not to be separated from God. These attributes do not shackle God but instead describe God.

If you don't mind, will you please justify this presupposition: "Justice requires that God punish sin exactly and that the full penalty be exacted from the sinner".

The reason I ask is Scripture seems to describe forgiveness as something else entirely. I know this is man's justice, but can you show me that it is God's?

In Christ,

John

 

[marks]

You didn't understand Marks...
I AM SAYING that there are persons that say they could live as they want and still claim to be saved and they use grace as a cover.

You reply to the above was:
Hm.

Go to that site I gave you and check it out.
Your "Hm" will become "WOW".

Trust me on this.

OK, no worries!

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying these are the sorts of comments that are used like weapons against members here. And it's a straw man argument.

It's like me arguing against believing in the great Wu, as if there were those here that do. But it doesn't apply, and it's a straw man, a logical fallacy used as a device in debate to not have to actually respond, but make it look like you have.

I say that we are forgiven and made righteous, so now we just live out who God made us.

Then someone argues, there is no cheap grace, you can't just say you've been forgiven so that you can just sin all you want. But that's not responsive. It's just blowing smoke. As If I were promoting cheap grace. Just an example. But hopefully you will understand what I'm saying.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, no worries!

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying these are the sorts of comments that are used like weapons against members here. And it's a straw man argument.

You mean that ME saying that some say they could live as they want and sin forever and still be saved....IS A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. (as a response to someone)

It's like me arguing against believing in the great Wu, as if there were those here that do. But it doesn't apply, and it's a straw man, a logical fallacy used as a device in debate to not have to actually respond, but make it look like you have.

ok

I say that we are forgiven and made righteous, so now we just live out who God made us.

Then someone argues, there is no cheap grace, you can't just say you've been forgiven so that you can just sin all you want. But that's not responsive. It's just blowing smoke. As If I were promoting cheap grace. Just an example. But hopefully you will understand what I'm saying.

Much love!

Well, I THINK I understand now.
Maybe I wasn't understanding because I don't use any of those tactics and I don't blow smoke because I don't like smoking and so far I don't think you're promoting cheap grace and I'm always responsive to any question.

GOT IT?
LOL

 

[Philip James]

I know this is man's justice, but can you show me that it is God's?

Hello John,

Man's 'justice' was condemned at the cross :


And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation:

sin, because they do not believe in me;

righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me;

condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned

Peace be with you!

 

[justbyfaith]

So you believe in a wrathful God?
Not a loving, merciful and just God?

Yes, the Lord does indeed have wrath against sin, Romans 1:18.

There is no right or wrong atonement due to this reason.
It's just a matter of which one you agree with most.

This is not necessarily true. There may be one that is right above all the others, and the most biblical. If I agree with one of the other theories more, it does not make that theory true.

We can know a few things. We can know that God was not wrathful towards Christ.

We do not know this. the wrath of God was poured out against Christ over our sin. See 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus became sin for us and took our penalty.

We can know that God did not separate from Christ.

Jesus said, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? on the cross.

We can know that God did not punish Christ.

The Bible teaches that God did indeed punish Christ on our behalf and instead of us.

Also this idea of being born again is beginning to annoy me.
Not because it ISN'T true...IT IS TRUE...
But some feel that if they walked down an isle and "ACCEPTED" Jesus...that's the end of that.

If anyone is truly born again, they will be made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and will abide for ever (1 John 2:17). This amounts to living holy (1 John 3:6).

 

[GodsGrace]

View attachment 6937

Hi H,
Have you been reading along?
I wasn't talking about anyone on this forum....
If there's someone like that here....
I'LL TAKE CARE OF THEM!!

 

[justbyfaith]

I know this is man's justice, but can you show me that it is God's?

Justice is justice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the Lord does indeed have wrath against sin, Romans 1:18.



This is not necessarily true. There may be one that is right above all the others, and the most biblical. If I agree with one of the other theories more, it does not make that theory true.



We do not know this. the wrath of God was poured out against Christ over our sin. See 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus became sin for us and took our penalty.



Jesus said, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? on the cross.



The Bible teaches that God did indeed punish Christ on our behalf and instead of us.



If anyone is truly born again, they will be made into a new creature in Christ and will abide for ever (1 John 2:17). This amounts to living holy (1 John 3:6).

Of course God has wrath against sin.
Did I say He didn't?
I hope your last sentence is right, but I dont' think so.

 

[Episkopos]

I am sorry, I am still way back at the beginning of this thread.

No, He would never take His anger out on another person...that is why He took it upon Himself...
'The Great Creator became our Saviour and all God's fullness dwelleth in Him. '

Yes. He offered Himself up to evil men in order to take the hatred of the outward man, which is conformed to selfishness and wickedness, onto Himself. He offered Himself as a lamb among wolves. And He bids us do the same.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course God has wrath against sin.
Did I say He didn't?

I believe your exact words were:

So you believe in a wrathful God?
Not a loving, merciful and just God?

Implying that if God is loving, merciful, and just, that this is contrary to the idea that He has wrath against sin.

 

[Helen]

Hi H,
Have you been reading along?
I wasn't talking about anyone on this forum....
If there's someone like that here....
I'LL TAKE CARE OF THEM!!

This thread is getting far too complicated for me...it is making my brain ache.

Im reading along...but half the time I cant understand what the basic issue is!! All I know is...The Lamb was slain before the creation of the world.
Therefore the God Head had the answer before it all began.

Jesus came into our TIME because He wanted to ...He came to die to remove sin inherited through the bloodline of Adam. The Father was well pleased with the perfect sacrifice.

I reject the concept that the debt was owed to Satan. Satan had nothing to do with it, was only the foolish tool of destruction from the very beginning....he thought he'd got rid of Jesus at the cross.
The sweet savour of the Lamb paid the debt of sin before God....
"While we were yet enemies..Christ died for the ungodly. "

Therein is my faith. More that that gets too complicated for me.

.........H

 

[Nancy]

This thread is getting far too complicated for me...it is making my brain ache.

Im reading along...but half the time I cant understand what the basic issue is!! All I know is...The Lamb was slain before the creation of the world.
Therefore the God Head had the answer before it all began.

Jesus came into our TIME because He wanted to ...He came to die to remove sin inherited through the bloodline of Adam. The Father was well pleased with the perfect sacrifice.

I reject the concept that the debt was owed to Satan. Satan had nothing to do with it, was only the foolish tool of destruction from the very beginning....he thought he'd got rid of Jesus at the cross.
The sweet savour of the Lamb paid the debt of sin before God....
"While we were yet enemies..Christ died for the ungodly. "

Therein is my faith. More that that gets too complicated for me.

.........H

"This thread is getting far too complicated for me...it is making my brain ache."
Ahaha, Helen, I am so with you on that...I gave up on this one pretty much from the beginning! Makes my brain bleed...ah, the simplicity of the wondrous Gospel...sigh.