The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

Matthew 25:31-33 LITV
31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33) And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.

This gathering and judgment occurs when Jesus returns in glory.

Matthew 24:29-30 LITV
29) And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.

Jesus comes in glory immediated following the great tribulation of those days.



Romans 11:25-27 LITV
25) For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26) and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27) And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isa. 59:20, 21

Not all of Isreal is yet saved. Those who are, are one with the gentiles in Christ. We aren't "Christian Jews and Gentiles", we are just "Christians". Some are Jewish, and some are Russian, and some are American, according to the flesh . . .

2 Corinthians 5:16 LITV
16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.



Revelation 7:3-8 LITV
3) Do not harm the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we seal the slaves of our God on their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5) Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed.

One reason being that these words are all written in masculine gender, where neuter gender would indicate men and women both.

Revelation 14:4 LITV
4) These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones following the Lamb wherever He may go. These were redeemed from among men as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.

This understanding is likewise carried forward in the above passage.



Not all Israel is yet saved, but the church by definition is.



2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 KJV
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

This is how the Bible speaks of it. Are you saying that you think Satan will "fake a rapture of the church"?



The Bible tells us something a little different on this point,

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 KJV
10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Much love!

I can see right off the Bible version you are using is contributing much to your confusion. The Greek in the KJV of Revelation 7 refers to 'servants', not to sons because the Greek can be translated to 'child' or 'foal', simply meaning children or offspring. Thus the KJV translators rendered it as "children".

Rev 7:3-4
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV

As for your confusion of believing on a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, that comes from men, and not from God's written Word. Jesus showed He comes to gather His Church after the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

This whole pre-trib rapture is one doctrine that I am not sure about. About the time I am convinced it is false doctrine, something usually comes up that makes me question that assumption. This happens time and time again. I am now at the point where I will not take a position on the timing of the rapture. There is too much confusion and contradicting view points. I think we just need to trust that we will be protected by God during the tribulation however it comes to be. We are not appointed to wrath.

You mean you'd rather stay in confusion instead of heeding what Lord Jesus actually said below?...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 

[marks]

But of course as a pretribber you have to explain away the saints of Revelation as those who missed the rapture and therefore were not worthy and all of a sudden become worthy to be called saints (AKA tribulation saints).

If you want to give Pre-trib timing a look, I'd recommend getting a broader look at pre-trib ideas. This one, "Partial Rapture", is a rather minority view, at least among the people and churches I know. It is not a Scriptural view, denying the efficacy of Jesus' death in effecting our reconciliation.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

This whole pre-trib rapture is one doctrine that I am not sure about. About the time I am convinced it is false doctrine, something usually comes up that makes me question that assumption. This happens time and time again. I am now at the point where I will not take a position on the timing of the rapture. There is too much confusion and contradicting view points. I think we just need to trust that we will be protected by God during the tribulation however it comes to be. We are not appointed to wrath.

@Mantis
As well as asking the question 'What' is the rapture? and 'When' is it? there is also another question:

'Who' is the rapture for? If this is remembered (and there are lots of words out there focusing exclusively on the 'What?' and 'When'? aspects), then the relevance of 1 Corinthians 10.32 comes to mind very clearly: the existence of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God.

If these groups are remembered, then the 'Who' aspect of the rapture can seem a lot clearer...

 

[farouk]

If you want to give Pre-trib timing a look, I'd recommend getting a broader look at pre-trib ideas. This one, "Partial Rapture", is a rather minority view, at least among the people and churches I know. It is not a Scriptural view, denying the efficacy of Jesus' death in effecting our reconciliation.

Much love!

Partial rapturism can lead easily to self-justification by works, because it in effect says the efficacy of the work of Christ is supposedly not enough...

 

[marks]

One of the most dangerous effects of the extremely popular Pre-Trib theory is that it makes Christians think that they do not have to study prophecy about the Time of the End and Christ’s return –

Seriously?? Pre-tribbers seem more into prophecy than others, by what I've seen.

Trying to make the rapture as "pre-wrath", "mid-" or "post-trib", forces one to have to somehow understand passages to mean things other than what they say, and makes trying to understand prophecy impossible. And after a while people may just throw up their hands and declare themselves Pan-Trib, and be done with it.

But when we take the passages for what they say, we don't have this issue, and we arrive a pre-trib. It all harmonizes, nothing has to be negated, or re-interpretted, or declared a symbol, and now you have to find the meaning. We can come to this conclusion without making 12,000 from each tribe into something besides 12,000 from each tribe.

I mean seriously, IF God were to tell us that He was going to have sealed (not sealed by the Holy Spirit, Himself being the seal) by an angel 12,000 men from each of the 12 tribes named, How Exactly do you suppose He would say it?

And I heard the number of these sealed, 144,000 actually living people, individuals, not groups, not representative, but you can stand them in rows, and count them, and check their ID's . . . .

OR perhaps,

Revelation 7:4 KJV
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Maybe He'd say it that way?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

If you want to give Pre-trib timing a look, I'd recommend getting a broader look at pre-trib ideas. This one, "Partial Rapture", is a rather minority view, at least among the people and churches I know. It is not a Scriptural view, denying the efficacy of Jesus' death in effecting our reconciliation.

Much love!

As I said I was a pretribber, so am familiar with all the arguments for and against. I am of the opinion that we will face the great tribulation which is the wrath of Satan. I would hope you take the time to watch the video I posted above.... it is part of a 2 + hour video which contrasts the pre trib and pre wrath rapture views. It is well done, and shows some of the inconsistencies and problems with the pretrib view in a fair way.... The Biggest is that tribulation by definition is a time of testing, and if there is no one to test then what is the purpose of the testing. My Timeline is diverse from theirs in significant ways, but that is because I do not read Revelation linearly like the video presents but rather "three dimensionally". This is somethingthe Holy Ghost taught me, Not something that comes from the teachings of men. I will explain if you are interested? Although I think I have before, to the chagrin of you and others if I remember correctly.

 

[Davy]

Those old Herbert Armstrong teachings are error. The bible proves it vit the scriptures.

There are two prophetic utterings in Ezekiel 37, one is about the Dead Men's Bones being brought back to life, the other is God telling Ezekiel that He is going to make the TWO STICKS into ONE STICK, God never OK'ed a divided nation, men did that. So, since the Northern Kingdoms were wicked God sent them off unto far away lands permanently, but every tribe had peoples (SEED) living in Judah and Jerusalem. Thus there were NEVER any lost tribes, that is a pure fable but forth by Armstrong, who was a false teacher.

Of course that latter part is total bull.

WARNING TO BRETHREN:
This fellow here is trying to 'deceive' brethren in Christ! Many of the orthodox unbelieving Jews refuse to believe the future Biblical return of the ten lost tribes of Israel, and they wrongly preach the LIE that the ten lost tribes of Israel is "permanently" gone, just like Milam says above. So who should we listen to, those like Milam (who kind of reveals himself as following orthodox Jewish doctrine), or to God's Holy Writ?

Per 2 Chronicles 11, when Jeroboam, king of the northern kingdom "house of Israel" (ten tribes) setup false calf idol worship in the north, and also common priests of the people, the Levites in the north left and went south to side with Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. Also, REMNANTS of the ten northern tribes that also refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship also left the north and went south to side with Judah. The MAJORITY of the ten tribe northern "kingdom of Israel" stayed... in the north under king Jeroboam (of Ephraim), and that is who all were scattered out of the holy land latter by the kings of Assyria, by GOD's Own Hand.

That is so easily verified through a simple reading in 2 Chronicles 11, that it is impossible for me to believe those like Milan doesn't know about it, and that is why I say he is here to deceive the brethren in Christ.

2 Chron 11:14-17
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

One can easily learn how GOD Himself split old Israel into two separate kingdoms starting in 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17. Because of king Jeroboam's calf idols in the north, that is why a small 'remnant' of the ten northern tribes can be found dwelling among the "kingdom of Judah" with the Jews. Yet the larger majority of the ten northern tribes stayed intact in the north under king Jeroboam, and were later scattered among the Gentiles, where they still are today.

Ezekiel 37 is His Promise to gather BOTH houses back to together in final under His Son, and king David, which of course won't happen until Jesus returns in the future.

Why then, would some Jews be against the idea of God bringing the lost ten tribes back together with the "house of Judah" per Ezekiel 37?

Is because those Jews are greedy, and want to claim that they only represent God's chosen?? I believe so, but they are completely wrong in that, for sure, and they will eventually discover when Jesus does return, and reveals their shame.

 

[marks]

How many Christians throughout history have been brutally killed by the sword and been starved to death ,did Christ not tell us to fear not those who can kill the flesh.

This is true for all of us at all times.

But consider . . . my mother. OK, you've never met her, so you don't know. She was a Christian (she's gone now, with the Lord), though she died like many of us do, sick in bed. She was cared for, never beaten, not starved, she just lived out her life. What made her special?

Do you see both questions have the same answer?

God determined the how and when and where of our exit from this planet. Not us.

God can do as He did with Enoch, just take him away. God can let us live peaceable lives to end peaceably. He can let us be tortured for our faith, or murdered for our spare change. It's up to Him. And IF He has reason to remove us en masse from the planet at some given moment, what is that to us?

IF that's where you are putting your trust, that's a mistake. If your faith in God is only to remove you from all your perceived troubles, I'd point you to knowing Jesus.

But God can teach a pre-trib rapture, and His children can still not fear those who can only destroy the body, and His children can still know that they may be persecuted and killed. It's non-sequitor. Because you don't know if you're going to die today, or tomorrow, or in 50 years. We live now.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This whole pre-trib rapture is one doctrine that I am not sure about. About the time I am convinced it is false doctrine, something usually comes up that makes me question that assumption. This happens time and time again. I am now at the point where I will not take a position on the timing of the rapture. There is too much confusion and contradicting view points. I think we just need to trust that we will be protected by God during the tribulation however it comes to be. We are not appointed to wrath.

Having studied this the past 30 years, and having engaged in quite detailed discussions and debates with others for the past 20 years, I've become pretty familiar with the different points of view, the variations within them, and their various strengths and weakness. I think in many cases I can make the arguments for the other views better than most presentations I've heard.

I've briefly adopted other views than pre-trib, but then came to discover the conflicts.

We can trust God in ANY tribulation! Suffering is the same whenever it comes. Evil men live now, horribly persecuting God's people. Now. These claims that we "just want to get out of having to suffer" deny that fact. And that there are many who live and die without suffering such torments, well, all I can say is that we just don't know what will happen in our lives, and we can trust God to bring us through everything, whatever happens.

And even so, God can still have a plan that removes the church just before the process which will save all Israel, and will provide a final chance for all remaining men to choose. Force them to choose, really.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

If you want to give Pre-trib timing a look, I'd recommend getting a broader look at pre-trib ideas.

Here is the link to the 2 Hour video.

 

[ScottA]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

On my phone right now...but I gotta get back to this one!

 

[Taken]

When were they slain?

Much love!

During the Apocalypse....——->

Common use language reference...”the four horsemen of the apocalypse”...
Seal 1
White- horseman, Crown (authority) Conquer - bow (threatening military)...

Seal 2
Red- horseman, Power - great sword (active military), take peace, KILL

Seal 3
Black- horseman, Controls - economy & commerce (funds, buy, selling)

Seal 4
Pale- horseman, (Name DEATH & HELL follows with him), Power to KILL
With swords, (active military), With hunger, (withhold food), With death, (possibly force drugs...since it is death without starving or military), With Beasts (animals). KILLING one/forth of world population.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

The Great tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the saints who are called to endure.

Matthew 24:21-22 KJV
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If left unchecked, All life on earth would end.

Revelation 12:12 KJV
12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 12:13 KJV
13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Israel.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

On my phone right now...but I gotta get back to this one!

I've been expecting you!



Much love!

 

[marks]

I can see right off the Bible version you are using is contributing much to your confusion. The Greek in the KJV of Revelation 7 refers to 'servants', not to sons because the Greek can be translated to 'child' or 'foal', simply meaning children or offspring. Thus the KJV translators rendered it as "children".

Rev 7:3-4
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV

So far as translations, I normally read and quote from the KJV, but I think yesterday my software Bible was switched to JP Green's LITV which is also fine for me.

As far as looking at genders and the like, I use the interlinear I downloaded from Scripture4all.org. You can also use the online version, its the same, it just runs faster on my computer as a download. This one shows "sons/children" of Israel to be masculine gender. Again, if a mixed gender group were being named, the Greek neuter gender should be used. Some words maintain their gender, it's just how the word is built. Parthenoi, "virgins", is feminine gender, and remains that way. But the pronouns in particular have all the options available, so correct Koine Greek calls for the correct gendered pronouns.

As for your confusion of believing on a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, that comes from men, and not from God's written Word. Jesus showed He comes to gather His Church after the tribulation.

So actually I've concluded this not from men's teachings, though I've read and heard a great deal of that. Rosenthal, Lindsey, whomever, Goodgame has some very interesting reading!

But that the church is not on the earth during the great tribulation, and and that those who are gathered after the great tribulation, these are all known by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

The two gatherings when Jesus comes, first, the "chosen", and then, the "nations", in which of these would you say the church is gathered? If you will answer my questions for you, I'll use that to show you what I mean.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Partial rapturism can lead easily to self-justification by works, because it in effect says the efficacy of the work of Christ is supposedly not enough...

Yes, that there are some Christians who are "more worthy" than others. As if it were not entirely received through faith, but made into the debt due for good works.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As I said I was a pretribber, so am familiar with all the arguments for and against.

Interesting! Then I'm surprised you would make the statements you did. Were they then just for the effect?

Much love!

 

[Christ4Me]

So You are saying the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation have already occurred when the physical temple was destroyed in 70 AD (Matthew 24:15ff)? I Just want to understand what you are saying here. In other words, this is how you resolve the Olivet discourse problem.

No. I said His disciples had asked Jesus 3 questions and He was not answering them in order. Did you not note that He did not say anything about the destruction of the Temple right off the bat and yet that was the first question put to Him?

if you read the entire Olivet Discourse which includes Matthew 25th chapter, you can see that He is going back & forth about answering those 3 questions.

Also, what is the difference between his coming as the bride groom and His coming as the king of kings? I think you are referring to the day of Christ vs. the day of the LORD here which I happen to agree with and do account for in my timeline.

His coming as the Bridegroom is referring to why He warns His believers to be ready or else, be left behind on earth for when that fire comes on the third of the earth that will set up the NWO and the mark of the beast system for the rest of the world to be tempted by. Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8 1 Corinthians 3:10-17* *-> this site's use of ESV has switched out defile in verse 17 as found in the KJV with destroy which is incorrect because why would God bother to destroy that temple if the believer did it already? So defile is correct in the KJV for why God will destroy that temple with physical death but the spirit is saved regardless. The judgment on the church at Thyatira is seen for how, by not repenting, they are cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be judged with physical death but according to 1 Corinthians 3:15, their spirits will be with the Lord; 2 Corinthians 5:7-11

Just so you know, although I am pre-wrather, like the the presenters of the video, I do not agree with their timeline. I have the great tribulation as being the first half of the final week. I Also believe the first 5 seals are already opened and we are merely awaiting the sixth seal, and the number of the saints to be killed to be fulfilled. I would be more than happy to discuss my views and why i Hold them.

I believe after the rapture event for why God is judging His House first because of the falling away from the faith, those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth for everyone will know have heard the gospel, then the fall of Babylon, and the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire to burn for ever and ever night & day so they will be without excuse. Revelation 14:6-13

That is why we have saints left behind to die with their works following them in Revelation 18 and why the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come and raptured those ready & willing to go and is gone to Heaven above.

What bothers me is when people like @Enoch111 says any other view is of the devil, this sort of attitude thwarts discussion and fellowship and coming to a better understanding. I personally have gone from a pre tribber to a pre wrather, so I know most of the arguments for and against both views. My Hope is that the pretribbers are right, but deep down I think they are in for a great disappointment.

Well brother @Enoch111 will be disappointed when or if he ever finds out that Matthew 25:1-13 applies to any wayward believer that thinks there is a continual filling of the Spirit after salvation as that fits the metaphor of the foolish five going out to the market to be filled with oil.

As for believing anything else but pre tribulation rapture as being of the devil, I doubt he can provide any scripture where God gives such a judgment, but a lot of pre tribbers seem to believe all Christians will be taken when that is not the case at all. Only those abiding in Him will.

The only disappointment that pre tribbers will have is that if they are in unrepentant iniquity, they will be excommunicated from the Marriage Supper as disqualified and thus to be left behind to die, but to be resurrected after the great tribulation to be damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready, vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth.

That means not every saved believer will be taken, but only those abiding in Him & His words and willing to go in leaving this life behind.

Regardless of the believer not believing in the pre great tribulation rapture, if they trust Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern good & evil by the meat of His words in the KJV to depart from iniquity and thereby laying aside every weight & sin daily to be that vessel unto honor, then by the grace of God and His help as He will finish His work in them in bring them Home to His glory to the Marriage Supper above.

As bad as it is in these latter days when Jesus even had asked the question about finding faith in all the earth, shows how bad it is now and why God has to judge His House first as the Bridegroom before coming back with the raptured saints as the King of kings to judge the world.

If I may add, Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus coming back to battle the world's armies marching against Jerusalem and He comes back touching down on the Mount of Olives with the pre great tribulation raptured saints. That means He is on earth doing battle with the world's armies.

Now in Revelation 20:1-6 Satan is already defeated and in the pit for a thousand years so that means the world's armies is defeated as well. Jesus is on earth when He resurrected those saints that went through the great tribulation to serve Him as the King of kings on earth. Jesus is not meeting those saints in the air. "First resurrection" was coined not to infer the rapture did not take place before the great tribulation, but to testify that this resurrection had to take place BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment later on.

I realize that this can also support your point of view including Revelation 2:18-25 is Him warning the church to repent or else be cast into the great tribulation but this church in Revelation 3:7-11 promises when holding fast, they shall be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth & that means they are not on the earth when those on the earth are being tempted to take the mark of the beast to survive or not.

Just something to reconsider with the Lord.

 

[marks]

I would hope you take the time to watch the video I posted above.... it is part of a 2 + hour video which contrasts the pre trib and pre wrath rapture views.

I've been comparing rapture views for a long time, and I find I can present the various views better than most I have occasion to discuss them with.

One particular issue that stands out to me when discussing the rapture, though it can happen with any topic, but this one seems to really bring it out, are the ad hominem arguments offered, such as the suggestion that the pre-tribber is just trying to get out of suffering, or that they just won't really study right, or there are so many variations.

Here's a live example, "How and why do you all get to escape ,what makes you special ?Are you afraid of death?"

If we can set aside all personal comments, much better progress can be made.

After that, I find the next biggest difficulty is in convincing people that the Bible actually means the very words it uses. So that when it says, "when the Son of Man comes in glory", that's what it means. And like that.

The Biggest is that tribulation by definition is a time of testing, and if there is no one to test then what is the purpose of the testing.

It's a time of testing for them that dwell upon the earth, not for the inhabitors of heaven. Think about that on two levels, if you would. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. God has made us alive in Christ, and seated us together with Him in the heavenly realm. And being raptured we then tabernacle in heaven, waiting for Jesus' revealing, and our being revealed with Him.

Revelation 12:12 KJV
12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

For instance, this will not actually be a time of testing for all mankind, but only those who are living on the earth when it happens. They will be there, alive on the earth, but many more will have gone from the earth by then. Whether by death or by rapture, there is no difference, we are gone.

My Timeline is diverse from theirs in significant ways, but that is because I do not read Revelation linearly like the video presents but rather "three dimensionally". This is somethingthe Holy Ghost taught me, Not something that comes from the teachings of men. I will explain if you are interested? Although I think I have before, to the chagrin of you and others if I remember correctly.

We've discussed this before. You superimpose the different parts together, so that the 3 sequences of 7 become a single sequence of 7, for instance, am I remembering this correctly?

For myself, I find there to be clearly delineated wording to show us sequences of things.

So for instance, the 7 trumpets are not given until the 7th seal is opened. And the 2 witnesses finish their testimony at the time the beast receives power, and the beast's power ends with the return of Christ. So we know that the witnesses prophesy for 42 month, then the beast reigns for 42 months, and then Jesus returns. The first 2 woes are before the third woe, so we know the plagues of locusts, and the 200,000,000 horsemen occur before Satan is cast to the earth.

The seals show one set of events, and the trumpets and bowls each themselves separate. Chagrin at conflating those? I suppose you could say that!

Much love!