The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Enoch111]

If we can set aside all personal comments, much better progress can be made

Well when you have nothing else to support your views then personal attacks are the only option. And let's not forget the smear campaigns against Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord etc. Especially JESUIT Francisco Ribera! After all how can anyone think that a Jesuit got something right?

Opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that it is mere escapism to believe in this doctrine. But they forget that Lot and his family had to be literally dragged out of Sodom before the wrath of God fell on Sodom and Gomorrah. The last thing that Lot wanted to do was leave Sodom even though it vexed his soul daily. Yet God called him "righteous" therefore he was dragged out of Sodom.

 

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During the Apocalypse....——->

Common use language reference...”the four horsemen of the apocalypse”...
Seal 1
White- horseman, Crown (authority) Conquer - bow (threatening military)...

Seal 2
Red- horseman, Power - great sword (active military), take peace, KILL

Seal 3
Black- horseman, Controls - economy & commerce (funds, buy, selling)

Seal 4
Pale- horseman, (Name DEATH & HELL follows with him), Power to KILL
With swords, (active military), With hunger, (withhold food), With death, (possibly force drugs...since it is death without starving or military), With Beasts (animals). KILLING one/forth of world population.


Glory to God,
Taken

I suggest that they were already dead, and in fact the announcement is that there will be more killed even as they were.

Here is an interesting thing, (you will find I look at every single word)

Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Later, the ones warred against by the dragon, these have the testimony of Jesus Christ, but the "souls under the altar", this isn't said of them. And they are "under the altar". Is this a reference to having sins covered under the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Covenant?

Avenge Our Blood!! They are given white robes, and told to rest, there are more of their fellowservants and brothers to be killed as were they.

God's promise to Israel has been in abeyance, but now all Israel shall be saved.

Much love!

 

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Jesus' prophecy in the Olivette Discourse shows us that the gentile church is not included in the gatherings when Jesus comes in glory.

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

There are more like this, where God promises to bring His chosen nation of Israel back into their promised land.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Joel 3:1-3 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

Matthew 25:35 KJV
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Matthew 25:42 KJV
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

The nations are judged according to whether or not they provided for the needs of Jesus' brothers. Those who are rejected, are rejected not because they had not trusted in Jesus, but because they didn't do these works.

Some are judged righteous not because they've trusted in Jesus, but because they did do these works.

The works in particular were, again, to provide for the needs of Jesus' brothers. If a group of people are being separated according to how they treated certain ones, those one of necessity are not included in the group being separated.

All the marble that match the color of my marbles will be moved to this circle, and those that don't match my marbles are moved to that circle. So you see you have to be able to identify the color of my marbles before being able to divide the others, therefore, my marbles are known already.

In the same way, Jesus' brothers, the Jews, having been regathered, become the litmus test for the rest. Did you or didn't you give them what they needed? Why would this be important?

Revelation 12:13-17 KJV
13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

Where does the bible say the 144 000 are men?

 

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Matthew 24:29 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Looking an an Historical Grammatical Hermeneutic, IF you were to quiz an Israelite alive at the time when Jesus spoke these words, saying, "the elect", or, "the chosen", and, the nations, if you were to ask them, who are these? The answer would be that God chose them, and the Nations are none other then the gentiles.

Much love!

 

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Where does the bible say the 144 000 are men?

From my previous post . . .

Gender forms of the words tell us these things.

This "m" is for masculine. Pronouns show the gender. If "these" are men, the word will be masculine gender. If women, feminine gender. And if a mixed group, neuter gender.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

No. I said His disciples had asked Jesus 3 questions and He was not answering them in order. Did you not note that He did not say anything about the destruction of the Temple right off the bat and yet that was the first question put to Him?

if you read the entire Olivet Discourse which includes Matthew 25th chapter, you can see that He is going back & forth about answering those 3 questions.

Ok I think I understand how you explain away the Olivet discourse problem, and that is to say Christ was jumping around and answeringthe questions in no particular order. Correct?

For me personally i take Christ at his word that he was describing events in the order they occurred, and the simplicity of this is that he is describing the end of the age as a birthing process. first you have birth pangs which occur over time, which for me is the entire church age which is the general tribulation of which John says he himself was a partaker in (Revelation 1:9) Then comes the water breaks (Abomination) and you have Great tribulation, and then after that the sorrow turns to joy with the Birth of the child.

It's a time of testing for them that dwell upon the earth, not for the inhabitors of heaven. Think about that on two levels, if you would. For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. God has made us alive in Christ, and seated us together with Him in the heavenly realm. And being raptured we then tabernacle in heaven, waiting for Jesus' revealing, and our being revealed with Him.

Not sure of your point here, but the ones being tested are the ones who are alive at the time and dwelling on the earth. It neither proves nor disproves the pretrib rapture. The point I am making is that tribulation is a time of testing of those who are in Christ Irregardless of whether that is the tribulation of the church age or the great tribulation of the end times. We are never in scripture promised an escape from tribulation, But we are promised an escape from the wrath of God. The Only verse one can point to regarding an escape is from the "hour of temptation" as found in Revelation 3:10, And the real question here is, is the hour of temptation a reference to the Great tribulation.... I do not think so. In fact, the word used in Revelation 3:10 is peirasmos, and not thilipsis as the great tribulation is called. I Believe we are living in the hour of temptation right now as we speak, and the great tribulation has yet to begin.

We've discussed this before. You superimpose the different parts together, so that the 3 sequences of 7 become a single sequence of 7, for instance, am I remembering this correctly?

For myself, I find there to be clearly delineated wording to show us sequences of things.

So for instance, the 7 trumpets are not given until the 7th seal is opened. And the 2 witnesses finish their testimony at the time the beast receives power, and the beast's power ends with the return of Christ. So we know that the witnesses prophesy for 42 month, then the beast reigns for 42 months, and then Jesus returns. The first 2 woes are before the third woe, so we know the plagues of locusts, and the 200,000,000 horsemen occur before Satan is cast to the earth.

The seals show one set of events, and the trumpets and bowls each themselves separate. Chagrin at conflating those? I suppose you could say that!

To look at revelation three dimensionally is to see it contains seven visions which all point to the day of the Lord. What this does is condenses all but a few things into the great tribulation thus making it Great. What this does is eliminate the need for "Parenthesis" being inserted in revelation when none are needed nor called for in the text as well as eliminating the contradictions that call for these parentheses to be added to the text.

For example the fall of Babylon is mentioned twice, Once in revelation 14, and once in revelation 18, in my three-dimensional view these events align the various vision. Or the great multitude is seen in heaven after the sixth seal has occurred, and it is said they came out of the great tribulation, meaning the great tribulation precedes the sixth seal and the rapture.

 

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Not sure of your point here, but the ones being tested are the ones who are alive at the time and dwelling on the earth. It neither proves nor disproves the pretrib rapture. The point I am making is that tribulation is a time of testing of those who are in Christ

I'm saying the ones being tested are the earth dwellers. We dwell in the heavenlies, and after the rapture, we will be tabernacled in heaven, to be blasphemed by the beast on earth. Those on earth will be tested.

You've said these who are on earth being tested will be those who are "in Christ". No Scripture teaches that.

Much love!

 

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To look at revelation three dimensionally is to see it contains seven visions which all point to the day of the Lord. What this does is condenses all but a few things into the great tribulation thus making it Great. What this does is eliminate the need for "Parenthesis" being inserted in revelation when none are needed nor called for in the text as well as eliminating the contradictions that call for these parentheses to be added to the text.

Personally I find your view doesn't take into account the many places which give us sequential information.

Do you, for instance, agree that the 2 witnesses prophesy for 42 months, after which time the beast reigns for 42 months, at the end of which Christ returns? Perhaps if we can find agreement on something simple we can build on this.

Much love!

 

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Revelation 13:5-7 YLT
5) And there was given to it a mouth speaking great things, and evil-speakings, and there was given to it authority to make war forty-two months,
6) and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,
7) and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.

To tabernacle is to have a temporary residence. Not your original home, not your final home, it's a tent, you are camping.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

From my previous post . . .

Gender forms of the words tell us these things.

This "m" is for masculine. Pronouns show the gender. If "these" are men, the word will be masculine gender. If women, feminine gender. And if a mixed group, neuter gender.

Much love!

But we need to stick to the message over a translation and the message is of a pure (virgin) innocent church. We are made pure and innocent through Jesus

We the church have no problem being called the bride of the Lamb but that doesn't mean that we are women.

 

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But we need to stick to the message over a translation and the message is of a pure (virgin) innocent church. We are made pure and innocent through Jesus

We the church have no problem being called the bride of the Lamb but that doesn't mean that we are women.

I'm just talking about how Koine Greek works. Syntax is used to tie words together.

English primarily uses word order to connect thoughts. So when we say, I threw the red ball over the blue house, we know what it all is because of the word groupings. The ball is red, the house is blue, and I threw a ball.

In Koine Greek, you could literally write this as, I red blue house ball threw over, and it would still make sense to the reader, because "I" and "threw" would be an a matching word form, and "ball" and "red" would be in matching word forms, and "blue" and "house would be in matching word forms.

This allows Greek to do what you cannot do in English, which is to reserve the actual word order for something else, in their case, generally, to show importance, or emphasis.

The words in the sentence which come first in Greek are chosen to come first to show the emphasis. So if I actually gave that crazy sentence, it would be to say that concerning me, there are things of colors, red and blue, and one is a house, and one is a ball, which I threw over the house.

They used the syntax to show word relationships, so they could use the word order to more precisely express their thought. First, it's about me, secondly, it's about colors, thirdly, what things are those colors, and lastly, what I did.

This is how we know what the message is exactly.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

I'm just talking about how Koine Greek works. Syntax is used to tie words together.

English primarily uses word order to connect thoughts. So when we say, I threw the red ball over the blue house, we know what it all is because of the word groupings. The ball is red, the house is blue, and I threw a ball.

In Koine Greek, you could literally write this as, I red blue house ball threw over my, and it would still make sense to the reader, because "I" and "threw" would be an a matching word form, and "ball" and "red" would be in matching word forms, and "blue" and "house would be in matching word forms.

This allows Greek to do what you cannot do in English, which is to reserve the actual word order for something else, in their case, generally, to show importance, or emphasis.

The words in the sentence which come first in Greek are chosen to come first to show the emphasis. So if I actually gave that crazy sentence, it would be to say that concerning me, there are things of colors, red and blue, and one is a house, and one is a ball, which I threw over the house.

They used the syntax to show word relationships, so they could use the word order to more precisely express their thought. First, it's about me, secondly, it's about colors, thirdly, what things are those colors, and lastly, what I did.

This is how we know what the message is exactly.

Much love!

Thanks so out of curiosity what is the Koine Greek for the bride of the Lamb?

How I look at scripture text is that all scriptures of actually a message from God thats how I read the text

 

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Thanks so out of curiosity what is the Koine Greek for the bride of the Lamb?

How I look at scripture text is that all scriptures of actually a message from God thats how I read the text

I look at Scripture the same way.

Which passage are you interested in?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

or the limiting words could be “in Christ.” The dead IN CHRIST. So does “the dead in Christ” include the dead not in Christ?

No. The dead not in Christ are the unsaved and are referred to here: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." We see these ones coming out of horrible places like hell, death and the sea. That's not where the saved are from.

 

[Marty fox]

I look at Scripture the same way.

Which passage are you interested in?

Much love!

Good to hear

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

 

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Good to hear

Life lessons from my Father in Every Word!


. . . and it's wife makes herself ready, these are feminine gender.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

Life lessons from my Father in Every Word!

View attachment 20419
. . . and it's wife makes herself ready, these are feminine gender.

Much love!

Thanks.

That's what I'm getting at if "it's wife makes herself ready" is of feminine gender and the wife or the bride is the church (and the church is made up of males and females) then the 144 000 although comes as mescaline gender in the Greek then the 144 000 could easily include females

 

[David H.]

Do you, for instance, agree that the 2 witnesses prophesy for 42 months, after which time the beast reigns for 42 months, at the end of which Christ returns? Perhaps if we can find agreement on something simple we can build on this.

I see the 42months of the two witnesses as synonymous with the 42 months of the great tribulation and hence the beast ruling. They all occur the first half of the final week. The Great tribulation is to test the church, Israel will enter the wrath of God and drink thereof before they repent (Zechariah 12:10). That is why the 144000 are sealed after the rapture.

The contradictions and the forced parentheses are there in Revelation, and need to be either covered up or explained away to hold to the pretrib rapture view.

 

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Thanks.

That's what I'm getting at if "it's wife makes herself ready" is of feminine gender and the wife or the bride is the church (and the church is made up of males and females) then the 144 000 although comes as mescaline gender in the Greek then the 144 000 could easily include females

Whether "wife" here is the church in heaven, as many think, or Israel on earth, as I think, the same consideration would apply, yes, that this is a mixed group being called by a feminine gender.

In this instance, wife is singular, the people are being treated as a single unit according to the role of wife. In the 144,000, "servants of God" is plural, treating them as a collection of people. The ones being sealed is also plural, and so on, so the operation of the pronouns are slightly different.

This is my understanding, and I do know that genders in the words gets tricky to understand sometimes, and I'm truly not the expert. I'm aware of places that simply carry the natural gender of the word, "soul" is a feminine gender word and is used that way even speaking of men, for instance.

As far as identifying who these sealed ones are, I rely more on the overall description of them, acknowledging that there could be a way to understand the text to include both men and women, though I don't think that is so.

That they are Jews, that they are 12,000 from each of 12 tribes, to me does not seem disputable.

Much love!