The Pre-Trib Rapture

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Taken

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The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Yes! Applicable to Converted “IN” Christ.

“IF” you are NOT Converted “IN” Christ...

Pre-Trib Rapture IS of NO concern for you.
You will get to experience Gods Great Tribulation.

Praise and Glory to our JUST God...
Everyone’s true heart’s desire fulfilled.





 

Taken

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If you want to understand revelation, you need logic and common sense.

Just logic and common sense.

Just logic and common sense to understand spiritual things?

Complete opposite of Scripture teaching!
 

ewq1938

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The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Yes! Applicable to Converted “IN” Christ.

“IF” you are NOT Converted “IN” Christ...

Pre-Trib Rapture IS of NO concern for you.
You will get to experience Gods Great Tribulation.

Praise and Glory to our JUST God...
Everyone’s true heart’s desire fulfilled.


“IF” you are NOT Converted “IN” Christ...

Pre-Trib Rapture IS of NO concern for you.
You will get to experience Gods Great Tribulation.

Praise and Glory to our JUST God...
Everyone’s true heart’s desire fulfilled.




That had a couple errors, it's better now:



“IF” you are NOT Converted “IN” Christ...

Pre-Trib Rapture IS for you.
You will get to experience Gods WRATH.
 

Truth7t7

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If you want to understand revelation, you need logic and common sense. For example.....

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This verse says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That should tell you that Jesus has returned and set up his kingdom on earth. Armageddon has already happened.

Just logic and common sense.
Yes the 7th Trump is (The End) final judgement time as Revelation 11:18 below clearly shows

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 

ewq1938

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Yes the 7th Trump is (The End) final judgement time as Revelation 11:18 below clearly shows

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


That's the first judgment not the last judgment. The last is here:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

Truth7t7

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That's the first judgment not the last judgment. The last is here:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
It appears you have fallen for the false teachings in dispensationalism, Revelation 11:18 & 20:11-15 below are the very same final judgement in "Parallel" teachings

Yes the book of Revelation is seen in "Parallel" teachings of same events, not "Chronoligically" as dispebsationalism falsely teaches

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

The Light

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Just logic and common sense to understand spiritual things?

Complete opposite of Scripture teaching!
Understanding Revelation is not really understanding spiritual things. It is understanding the order of events. From what I've seen, it is those that want to use their spiritual insight that have no clue. They get off the road by using their great spiritual insight when the answer is already given. Example. Many claim that the 144,000 are the Church. Or the 144,000 represents all of Israel. No. Just read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. The Word says that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe. That's what it means. PERIOD. It also says that they are the 1st fruits and are redeemed from the earth. Thats what it means. PERIOD. If you understand what first fruits mean, that should tell you there is going to be a harvest of Israel. If you are off the road and think that the Church is Israel, you are not going to understand Revelation.

It all lines perfectly. Just read what it says and believe what it says.

Common sense and logic should tell you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. All you have to do is compare the events of the sixth seal to the events of Matt 24: 29-31. It should also tell you that Jesus has come at the sixth seal. You can prove that by the great multitude and those that have come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev 7.

You are not accepting what the word says. You think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. The Word says that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal (IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days). Then you have many that think that the Church goes though the wrath of God. Scripture clearly tells us that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. How much sense does it make to have the Church going through the wrath of God. NONE.

Read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. Simple.
 
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Taken

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Understanding Revelation is not really understanding spiritual things. It is understanding the order of events. From what I've seen, it is those that want to use their spiritual insight that have no clue. They get off the road by using their great spiritual insight when the answer is already given. Example. Many claim that the 144,000 are the Church. Or the 144,000 represents all of Israel. No. Just read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. The Word says that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe. That's what it means. PERIOD. It also says that they are the 1st fruits and are redeemed from the earth. Thats what it means. PERIOD. If you understand what first fruits mean, that should tell you there is going to be a harvest of Israel. If you are off the road and think that the Church is Israel, you are not going to understand Revelation.

It all lines perfectly. Just read what it says and believe what it says.

Common sense and logic should tell you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. All you have to do is compare the events of the sixth seal to the events of Matt 24: 29-31. It should also tell you that Jesus has come at the sixth seal. You can prove that be the great multitude and those that have come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev 7.

You are not accepting what the word says. You think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. The Word says that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal (IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days). Then you have many that think that the Church goes though the wrath of God. Scripture clearly tells us that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. How much sense does it make to have the Church going through the wrath of God. NONE.

Read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. Simple.

It is neither LOGICAL or COMMON sense for a mans Carnal Mind to believe what he can NOT SEE.

The Carnal Mind IS AGAINST GOD!
Why you continue to INSIST reliance upon the LOGIC of the Carnal Mind IS ridiculous.

Any DOUBT God is INVISIBLE...? Can NOT BE SEEN?

Gods Teaching has ALWAYS BEEN:
Hear what He says.
Hear what He says WILL COME TO PASS.
WHEN what He says “HAS COME TO PASS”...
REASON what WHAT YOU HAVE “SEEN” come to Pass...
REASON WHO said it, THAT it Happened, THAT you have SEEN that it happened....REASON why you DO or DO NOT Believe it.
...Because you saw it happened and too stupid to believe what you see?
...Because you saw it happened and then believe what you see?

LOGICAL thinking, has nothing to do with that.
LOGICAL thinking, is the Carnal Mind DECIDING Between this and that, of what MAKES SENSE....without consideration of WHO said WHAT, of WHAT was said would come to pass, of WHAT did come to pass.

Revelations is exactly what it says.....It reveals all the Punishments God said would come to pass.....
For Angels with God but not committed to God, Fallen Angels, For those who Believe in God BUT reject Jesus is the Christ, For His People Israel who Rejected Christ Jesus, For Believers not committed to God or Christ Jesus, For People who reject God....

People who ARE committed are the Converted.
They are EXCLUSIVE, “IN” Christ. Christ “IN” them.
No they are NOT ON Earth being subjected to Gods Punishments, Wrath, Tribulations.
And NO, being called a Believer, a Logical thinker, Water Baptized, a Christian.......DOES NOT MEAN Converted IN Christ.
 

Truth7t7

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Just read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. The Word says that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe. That's what it means. PERIOD. It also says that they are the 1st fruits and are redeemed from the earth. Thats what it means. PERIOD. If you understand what first fruits mean, that should tell you there is going to be a harvest of Israel. If you are off the road and think that the Church is Israel, you are not going to understand Revelation.

It all lines perfectly. Just read what it says and believe what it says.

Common sense and logic should tell you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. All you have to do is compare the events of the sixth seal to the events of Matt 24: 29-31. It should also tell you that Jesus has come at the sixth seal. You can prove that by the great multitude and those that have come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev 7.

You are not accepting what the word says. You think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. The Word says that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal (IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days). Then you have many that think that the Church goes though the wrath of God. Scripture clearly tells us that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. How much sense does it make to have the Church going through the wrath of God. NONE.

Read what the Word says and accept what the Word says. Simple.
I Agree, Read What The Word States And Don't Change It To Meet Your Personal Views

The Church Is The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad, And Dont Change It, "PERIOD"!

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 
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The Light

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I Agree, Read What The Word States And Don't Change It To Meet Your Personal Views

The Church Is The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad, And Dont Change It, "PERIOD"!

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Let's read all the Word and accept what it says. How can the twelve tribes across the earth possibly be the Church? The Jews have their eyes blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in? NO.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the Jews as the 1st harvest, but they served other Gods. So the Jews will not be the 1st harvest and therefore cannot possibly be the Church.

Why is it that most of what you claim does not agree with scripture? I think you have spent too much John Nelson Darby yada, yada, yada time and not enough time checking to see if what you believe agrees with scripture.
 

The Light

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It is neither LOGICAL or COMMON sense for a mans Carnal Mind to believe what he can NOT SEE.
Well, I can see what is written in the book of Revelation. I can either accept the written Word of God and believe it or I can start making things up that aren't in the Word of God which is what I see happening all the time.
The Carnal Mind IS AGAINST GOD!
Why you continue to INSIST reliance upon the LOGIC of the Carnal Mind IS ridiculous.
Is my mind carnal because I am willing to accept what is written and believe what is written by God. Is it wiser to believe the written Word of God, or is it a requirement to start making things up that are not in the Word of God. Truth is truth. You can believe the truth or not. It's that simple.
Any DOUBT God is INVISIBLE...? Can NOT BE SEEN?

Yes. I'm willing to doubt that. God has been seen.

John1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Gods Teaching has ALWAYS BEEN:
Hear what He says.
Hear what He says WILL COME TO PASS.
WHEN what He says “HAS COME TO PASS”...
REASON what WHAT YOU HAVE “SEEN” come to Pass...
REASON WHO said it, THAT it Happened, THAT you have SEEN that it happened....REASON why you DO or DO NOT Believe it.
...Because you saw it happened and too stupid to believe what you see?
...Because you saw it happened and then believe what you see?

LOGICAL thinking, has nothing to do with that.
LOGICAL thinking, is the Carnal Mind DECIDING Between this and that, of what MAKES SENSE....without consideration of WHO said WHAT, of WHAT was said would come to pass, of WHAT did come to pass.

Revelations is exactly what it says.....It reveals all the Punishments God said would come to pass.....
For Angels with God but not committed to God, Fallen Angels, For those who Believe in God BUT reject Jesus is the Christ, For His People Israel who Rejected Christ Jesus, For Believers not committed to God or Christ Jesus, For People who reject God....

People who ARE committed are the Converted.
They are EXCLUSIVE, “IN” Christ. Christ “IN” them.
No they are NOT ON Earth being subjected to Gods Punishments, Wrath, Tribulations.
And NO, being called a Believer, a Logical thinker, Water Baptized, a Christian.......DOES NOT MEAN Converted IN Christ.

Revelation is so much harder to understand when you can't accept what is written. If the Word says something and you don't understand it, the Word is not wrong. Accept what is written and move on and later you have a chance of gaining understanding. If the Word says Jesus was on the Mount Sion and with Him are 144,000 of the twelve tribes......that's what it means. If the Word says that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are firstfruits.....that's what it means. Common sense and logic. Accept what is written.
 

Timtofly

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It appears you have fallen for the false teachings in dispensationalism, Revelation 11:18 & 20:11-15 below are the very same final judgement in "Parallel" teachings

Yes the book of Revelation is seen in "Parallel" teachings of same events, not "Chronoligically" as dispebsationalism falsely teaches

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Seems you have fallen for the erroneous opinions of man called parallelism.

Revelation 20 is not there as the result of dispensational teaching. Revelation 20 is the basis for a proper conclusion of dispensations. Are ages and dispensations the same frame of thought? Where is parallelism taught in Scripture? Different ages and dispensations can be found in Paul's writings.
 

ewq1938

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It appears you have fallen for the false teachings in dispensationalism, Revelation 11:18 & 20:11-15 below are the very same final judgement in "Parallel" teachings

No, they aren't. That's the false teachings of Amillennialism. Revelation 11:18 is the 7th trump while Revelation 20:11-15 is over a thousand years after the 7th trump.
 

Michiah-Imla

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I Agree, Read What The Word States And Don't Change It To Meet Your Personal Views

The Church Is The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad, And Dont Change It, "PERIOD"!

James 1:1KJV
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Interesting.

I never connected the tribes mentioned in the book of James to the ones in Revelation.
 

Keraz

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Interesting.

I never connected the tribes mentioned in the book of James to the ones in Revelation.
The Established Church as the People of God of the New Covenant, isn’t a correct statement as it is only individuals who qualify according to their faith and righteousness.

In the New Testament no emphasis is given to any select group, but only to the whole company of what the NT calls ‘the elect,’ ‘the saints,’ ‘the disciples,’ ‘the brothers and sisters.’ If we recognise that all born again, baptised believers make up the Body of Christ and the People of God, we won’t make the mistake of identifying the true church with the Established Church. The real church is always the whole People of God, the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the whole communion (fellowship, koinonia) of the disciples of Jesus. It includes lay persons, clergy and non-church people. All faithful Christian believers make up and belong together to the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy nation.

This implies a second conclusion: that as Christians, all members of the Church are fundamentally equal. All equally have been called by God to belong, all equally have been justified by Christ, all equally have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All equally have been called to respond to the message, the person and the work of Christ, by their faith, their commitment, their cooperation, their trust and their love. In principle also, all are equally responsible for the Church’s work in the world, its mission to spread to Gospel.

The gifts of the Spirit result in different services, tasks, functions and offices, but they are secondary to the fundamental membership in the Church which is based on true belief, and to the life of discipleship which stems from keeping the Commandments and doing the works according each individual’s situation. What counts more than any ministry or office, however exalted, is whether we live authentically as members of the chosen People of God.


Do we live in faith, hope and love in covenant relationship with God and with our fellow disciples of Jesus?

For, more than anything, the Church is the community of the disciples of Jesus. Everything else is secondary and subordinate to that. The shared call to baptism and discipleship has meant that from the beginning all kinds of people, sometimes persons naturally opposed, have joined the church and belonged to the congregation.

Jews and Gentiles, free citizens and slaves, rich and poor, men and women, have shared with one another in the life of the Church as fellow disciples of Jesus Christ, their Lord. An important point is that only through Jesus, has every Christian become the People of God in the New Covenant.


This has happened ‘in Christ,’ as Paul says. This truth raises two questions, vital questions in Christian-Jewish dialogue and reconciliation today:

1. Has God rejected His ethnic people and been unfaithful to his promises?

2. Have the Jews ceased to be a People of God?

These are difficult questions, which have been debated by Bible scholars and theologians for many years. To both of these questions the Apostle Paul has given a decisive ‘No!’ But as we see today sadly: most Jews continue to reject Jesus.


So; who exactly is the Israel of God now?

We know from Romans 9:27, that Israel is as numerous as the sands of the sea and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 both send greetings to the Twelve Tribes, scattered abroad.

The Jews alone do not fit either of these criteria.

The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations.

That God’s Plan to have a people that bear the proper fruit; as the Jews rejected Him, Matthew 21:43, HAS been successful and that Western Christians are mostly Israelites: actual descendants of Jacob, is nothing short of miraculous and shows God’s amazing Plan of sending Jesus to be our Redeemer and Saviour, to be God’s fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 7:37

Note: that Jesus came to be our Redeemer. To redeem someone means to reinstate them, to buy them back again from a fallen state.

Our destiny as born again Christians, is to be the people God has never had, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, Acts 1:8 and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14
It will be our privilege and our honour, as He showers His Spirit and His Blessings upon His righteous people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Revelation 7:9


The acceptance of the Gospel by some Jews like Paul means that their apostasy is not total. But the bulk of the ethnic Christian Israel of God are His people who have forgotten their ancestry. In the end times, their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped; Isaiah 32:3-4
All the true righteous and faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, will be citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land, but in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, the majority will be the actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 50:4-7

As Paul asserts: in the end "all Israel will be saved.” That is: every ethnic Israelite faithful to God, will enter the holy Land, accompanied by every true Christian Gentile, all members of the Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-18, but ALL who reject Him will not. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hebrews 10:26-27
 
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Taken

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That had a couple errors, it's better now:

“IF” you are NOT Converted “IN” Christ...
Pre-Trib Rapture IS for you.

You will get to experience Gods WRATH.

I see you are trying to say...get to getting.
However the fact remains.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is NOT, DOES NOT, apply to a man “NOT in Christ”.
 

ewq1938

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I see you are trying to say...get to getting.
However the fact remains.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is NOT, DOES NOT, apply to a man “NOT in Christ”.


Satan sometimes offers a counterfeit to deceive people out of the true thing. I believe the pre-trib rapture is the counterfeit. Both Paul and Christ presented a rapture that takes place post-trib, with the Church definitely suffering satan's persecutions in the Great Tribulation.
 

Truth7t7

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Let's read all the Word and accept what it says. How can the twelve tribes across the earth possibly be the Church? The Jews have their eyes blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in? NO.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the Jews as the 1st harvest, but they served other Gods. So the Jews will not be the 1st harvest and therefore cannot possibly be the Church.

Why is it that most of what you claim does not agree with scripture? I think you have spent too much John Nelson Darby yada, yada, yada time and not enough time checking to see if what you believe agrees with scripture.
Scripture clearly teaches "The Elect Remnant" are chosen and elected to salvation through God's "Foreknowledge" and "Added" to the "Church" just as all believers are saved and "Added" to the "Church"

Romans 11:2-8KJV
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
 

Truth7t7

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No, they aren't. That's the false teachings of Amillennialism. Revelation 11:18 is the 7th trump while Revelation 20:11-15 is over a thousand years after the 7th trump.
No such thing as a 1,000 year kingdom upon this earth after the return of Jesus Christ, it's a man made fabricated fairy tale

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)