The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

So far as translations, I normally read and quote from the KJV, but I think yesterday my software Bible was switched to JP Green's LITV which is also fine for me.

As far as looking at genders and the like, I use the interlinear I downloaded from Scripture4all.org. You can also use the online version, its the same, it just runs faster on my computer as a download. This one shows "sons/children" of Israel to be masculine gender. Again, if a mixed gender group were being named, the Greek neuter gender should be used. Some words maintain their gender, it's just how the word is built. Parthenoi, "virgins", is feminine gender, and remains that way. But the pronouns in particular have all the options available, so correct Koine Greek calls for the correct gendered pronouns.

My BibleSoft program will do the same thing at times when I highlight a Scripture to quote; it will switch to whichever Bible version my pointer is on level with. But even the Interlinear Bible included in my BibleSoft stlll has the "servants" and "children" translation of Revelation 7:3-4 like the KJV does (Greek doulous for "servants", and Greek huios for "children").

 

[stunnedbygrace]

By covered up and explained away, I am referring to the left behind being called the tribulation saints.... those deemed unworthy and left behind all of a sudden are the saints.

Could it be that some portion of those left behind is because they need more sifting/testing to come out pure and that some of them become the tribulation saints?

 

[Truth7t7]

Psh!! Paradise and virgins, not in Bible.
A thousand years, in the Bible. Three times in one passage.

If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
Reign over…who?

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Could it be that some portion of those left behind is because they need more sifting/testing to come out pure and that some of them become the tribulation saints?

Nobody is left behind, because a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven isn't seen in scripture

It's the false teaching of John N. Darby 1830's and popularized by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, that maintained Darby's teachings in the margins, better known as dispensationalism

 

[Truth7t7]

This "elect" is the chosen nation Israel, exactly as prophesied several times in the OT. This is not the rapture of the church. The church was not yet revealed. The language usage of the day didn't mean that either. There was no such thing as a gentile church who would be caught up. Not yet.

But there was a chosen people, and the rest, the nations, the gentiles. The nations include the righteous and unrighteous, and Jesus separates them as sheep and goats. The chosen - Israel - are gathered in entirety, and in entirety saved.

If you have the church being gathered when Israel is gathered, from whence come the sheep? If they are declared righteous by Christ, why weren't they gathered with the elect? There is no answer to that question that is not contradicted in Scripture. Well, there is one. That Jesus raptures the church, then remains in the sky, above the earth, with the church, while He finishes His wrath. Strangely, I know some who believe that. Some sort of He's not really come since He hasn't "touched down" yet.

Ask any Jew in Jesus' day . . . who are the chosen, and who are the nations? The Jews, and the gentiles. Will the Jews be gathered to their land, and the gentiles gathered for judgment? Yes. See Joel. Isaiah. Ezekiel. A number of places.

And in all of these . . . the church had not yet been revealed. And the prophecies named Israel, and the gentiles.

The gathering of Israel happens directly after the great tribulation, exactly as prophesied. Trying to put the church into that causes irreconcileable conflicts with other passages, and does not follow the already established pattern shown throughout the prophecies of this time.

Much love!

Matthew 24:29-31 The elect is the church, and the depiction is nothing more than the second coming last day resurrection, seen in multiple teachings in scripture, including 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, same Jesus returning, same trump, same event

 

[Nancy]

Could it be that some portion of those left behind is because they need more sifting/testing to come out pure and that some of them become the tribulation saints?

I sure hope this is not the case. It seems to say we are saved in increments and, cannot buy that. How "saved" does one have to be to, well...be saved? And, what about those new to the faith...they sure are not complete in Him yet. Guess we will all find out one day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nobody is left behind, because a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven isn't seen in scripture

It's the false teaching of John N. Darby 1830's and popularized by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, that maintained Darby's teachings in the margins, better known as dispensationalism

Many disagree and think they see strong indications of it, in both old and new testaments, that God removes the righteous before He pours out His wrath.

 

[marks]

My BibleSoft program will do the same thing at times when I highlight a Scripture to quote; it will switch to whichever Bible version my pointer is on level with. But even the Interlinear Bible included in my BibleSoft stlll has the "servants" and "children" translation of Revelation 7:3-4 like the KJV does (Greek doulous for "servants", and Greek huios for "children").

I don't disagree with those translations myself.

I only have a few translations loaded on the software I use here, so fortunately, if I end up quoting from a different one, it will be the KJV, or the LITV, or the YLT, all I like.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I sure hope this is not the case. It seems to say we are saved in increments and, cannot buy that. How "saved" does one have to be to, well...be saved? And, what about those new to the faith...they sure are not complete in Him yet. Guess we will all find out one day.

That's the issue to me, it lessens the efficacy of the reconciliation Jesus obtained for us. I believe if we have trusted in Him, that we are fully reconciled to God.

What would need to be done to make us like the others?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I sure hope this is not the case. It seems to say we are saved in increments and, cannot buy that. How "saved" does one have to be to, well...be saved? And, what about those new to the faith...they sure are not complete in Him yet. Guess we will all find out one day.

If God allows a man to be tested to come out pure, how does that equal an unsaved man…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Actually, I don’t desire it. If I had my druthers, I’d like complete perfection of everything rather a thousand years of greatly improved and satan being let out to deceive again.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many disagree and think they see strong indications of it, in both old and new testaments, that God removes the righteous before He pours out His wrath.

Many disagree with a literal hell and lake of fire, but that dosent make it true

Nobody is left behind, because a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven isn't seen in scripture

It's the false teaching of John N. Darby 1830's and popularized by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, that maintained Darby's teachings in the margins, better known as dispensationalism

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually, I don’t desire it. If I had my druthers, I’d like complete perfection of everything rather a thousand years of greatly improved and satan being let out to deceive again.

Good thing, because a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is the invention of man, found no place in scripture, and will never take place

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Many disagree with a literal hell and lake of fire, but that dosent make it true

Nobody is left behind, because a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven isn't seen in scripture

It's the false teaching of John N. Darby 1830's and popularized by C.I. Scofield's 1909 reference bible, that maintained Darby's teachings in the margins, better known as dispensationalism

once again, many men think they see removal of the righteous before Gods wrath is poured out littered all through the entire Bible.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Good thing, because a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is the invention of man, found no place in scripture, and will never take place

I think your record is scratched….

 

[David H.]

By covered up and explained away then, you simply mean, a view other than your own. But for some reason you cannot seem to find it within yourself to give another person some simple courtesy to allow them their opinion without you turning it into some accusation.

You have to take them down.

From the heart, the mouth speaks.

No I am referring to the plain and simple reading of the text which says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", which is pointing to the Great tribulation he just got done Speaking about.

Actually, "man" isn't specified in the Bible here. "If any".

Will this matter to you? Or will you call this "explained away"?

No this does not matter because autos IS used here which is a direct pronoun meaning He him etc. My point is that the two witnesses are killed not by those "He Hims" But by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit which is a fallen angel and not a man as per Revelation 11:7, for which the key to open the bottomless pit is not until the fifth trumpet.

This "elect" is the chosen nation Israel, exactly as prophesied several times in the OT. This is not the rapture of the church. The church was not yet revealed. The language usage of the day didn't mean that either. There was no such thing as a gentile church who would be caught up. Not yet.

This is what I am talking about when i say explain away..... Ok, if the Olivet discourse only refers to Israel then you are taking just about all the supporting passages for the rapture away from defending the rapture. Not to mention the fact that Matthew 24 parallels 2 Thessalonians 2 exactly, and that is addressed to the gentile church. The point being, In Christ Jesus there is neither jew nor gentile, and Jesus knew he was speaking of the church when he was speaking of the elect.

This is hyper dispensationalism in a nutshell as it takes whole passages of the gospel and makes them of none effect for the church, and that is coming from someone who is a dispensationalist. Jesus is the cornerstone of the church, and the Apostles the foundation as per Paul, to make a statement like yours is to make the words of Jesus of none effect.... Any doctrine that forces you to do this IMO should be cast out by the believer as being heretical, as John warns in revelation of any that add or subtract from this book being anathema (cursed). If you have to rely on this sort of explaining away then perhaps you need to reexamine your doctrine, which is why I am no longer a pretribber.

 

[Nancy]

If God allows a man to be tested to come out pure, how does that equal an unsaved man…?

Aren't we being tested daily? Some are more "complete" in Him than others. It sounds like a form of purgatory...another whole different can of worms.
Not saying anything about an unsaved person being "left behind" cause, I don't think ANY saved person will be left behind. We can't all be "vessels of honor"...?

 

[Davy]

I don't disagree with those translations myself.

I only have a few translations loaded on the software I use here, so fortunately, if I end up quoting from a different one, it will be the KJV, or the LITV, or the YLT, all I like.

Much love!

I am weary of all modern Bible translations after the KJV, even the NKJV which does not actually follow the Textus Receptus closely like the KJV does, even though Nelson publishers claim it does.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No this does not matter because autos IS used here which is a direct pronoun meaning He him etc. My point is that the two witnesses are killed not by those "He Hims" But by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit which is a fallen angel and not a man as per Revelation 11:7, for which the key to open the bottomless pit is not until the fifth trumpet.

I just had a random thought. It would be pretty good for mid trib believers maybe. I once heard someone say Jesus did not say, come out, but specifically said, Lazarus come out, or else all the dead would have risen and said, little girl I say to you get up or all the dead would have risen.
With the two witnesses, the voice just says, “come up here!”

It makes a kind of sense too, because if someone hasn’t listened to the two witnesses and repented, they just probably aren’t going to. So I guess midtribbers might like it. Maybe even pretribbers who think some might not yet be counted worthy and are left who then become saints might be removed at that time.

I’m just gabbing my random thoughts.

 

[David H.]

Could it be that some portion of those left behind is because they need more sifting/testing to come out pure and that some of them become the tribulation saints?

please don't take this the wrong way, but anything "could be". This is just conjecture as has been popularized by the Ancient Aliens type of science, whose famous catch phrase is "could it be" and "Perhaps instead of".

What does the Holy Spirit tell you? What does scripture tell us of these saints? Are they someone who missed out on the rapture because they were unworthy, and then turn around and give their heads? What does the Parable of the ten virgins say of the foolish virgins? This is not something you want to play around and conjecture, because then you are making excuses for people to not not have enough oil thinking they will get a second chance.