The Pre-Trib Rapture

[stunnedbygrace]

Aren't we being tested daily? Some are more "complete" in Him than others. It sounds like a form of purgatory...another whole different can of worms.
Not saying anything about an unsaved person being "left behind" cause, I don't think ANY saved person will be left behind. We can't all be "vessels of honor"...?

mmm…then why pray to be accounted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world?

 

[Davy]

I just had a random thought. It would be pretty good for mid trib believers maybe. I once heard someone say Jesus did not say, come out, but specifically said, Lazarus come out, or else all the dead would have risen and said, little girl I say to you get up or all the dead would have risen.
With the two witnesses, the voice just says, “come up here!”

It makes a kind of sense too, because if someone hasn’t listened to the two witnesses and repented, they just probably aren’t going to. So I guess midtribbers might like it. Maybe even pretribbers who think some might not yet be counted worthy and are left who then become saints might be removed at that time.

I’m just gabbing my random thoughts.

But dear, consider how you came to such un-Biblical thoughts, because there is no such thing as a Pre-trib rapture written of in God's Word, nor a Mid-trib rapture either. Please consider the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture that our Lord Jesus gave us.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

SInce "Eschatology" is just another word meaning "Rank Speculation", I've never seen the need to bother with it. I'll be dead when it happens (however it happens) anyway, so nothing I need to care about one way or another. But if it occurs this afternoon, I'm OUTTA here!!!! The "Theology" is totally unimportant.

 

[Davy]

mmm…then why pray to be accounted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world?

Consider how we escape temptation. Does our Heavenly Father simply remove us physically away from the temptation? No, He helps us escape it by listening to Him and heeding His commandments, and thus we cannot be deceived by Satan's tempters.

The teaching by Pre-trib preachers that to escape the "hour of temptation" (Revelation 3:10) means being raptured out of this world is NOT Biblical. That's just another idea they vainly used Scripture to try and prop up the fake Pre-trib theory.

What is that "hour of temptation" Jesus mentioned to the Church of Philadelphia? It is about the last symbolic "one hour" at the end of this world, the time of "great tribulation", the latter 1260 day period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (7 years) of Daniel 9:27. It is the period when the coming pseudo-Christ will appear in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshipped.

One of the main warnings Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul gave us about that future time, is to not... allow any man... to deceive us. That... is what the "hour of temptation" is about, i.e., the coming of that pseudo-Christ playing God in Jerusalem, and commanding all to bow to him in place of Christ. That is what the 'temptation' for the end will be about, and is the great falling away event that Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2.

So for us to not be tempted by that event, it simply means we are to REFUSE to bow to that false one in place of Christ, when that fake does come and is setup. THAT... is how we escape the "hour of temptation". Not physical escape, but SPIRITUAL escape by NOT being spiritual asleep and drunken in the night (spiritually), like Apostle Paul taught.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

please don't take this the wrong way, but anything "could be". This is just conjecture as has been popularized by the Ancient Aliens type of science, whose famous catch phrase is "could it be" and "Perhaps instead of".

What does the Holy Spirit tell you? What does scripture tell us of these saints? Are they someone who missed out on the rapture because they were unworthy, and then turn around and give their heads? What does the Parable of the ten virgins say of the foolish virgins? This is not something you want to play around and conjecture, because then you are making excuses for people to not not have enough oil thinking they will get a second chance.

Don’t worry brother, I never take anything you say the wrong way!

The Holy Spirit doesn’t tell me anything about it as far as I am aware. I just see certain things in scripture. Connections. I mean, I do sometimes get those waves washing through me when something is true but…I’ve had to learn to be very careful to not add any assumptions to that and mostly don’t cling to that baser way of hearing any more.

 

[marks]

hyper dispensationalism

Another meaningless yet derogatory label. Useless.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

mmm…then why pray to be accounted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world?

Yeah, hmmm...dunno! Unless being accounted worthy is our faith and belief and trust in Christ? What will we all be doing in our personal lives when He comes? Acting like the evil servant, or seeking all things Him? How worthy must one be? Cannot see saved people reaching total fullness in this world. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom and, if one has not FULLY crucified themselves, does that mean they are not yet saved? Hope not!

 

[marks]

o this does not matter because autos IS used here which is a direct pronoun meaning He him etc.

Autos there refers to the witnesses.

"Any" is a singular nominative, "them", that is from Autos, is plural accusative. We use the syntax to show word relationships.

My point is that the two witnesses are killed not by those "He Hims" But by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit which is a fallen angel and not a man as per Revelation 11:7, for which the key to open the bottomless pit is not until the fifth trumpet.

This then isn't accurate, as none can hurt these two witnesses.

God will not contradict Himself, claiming none may hurt them, then giving someone authority to hurt them, whomever that someone, whether man or beast. Simply, any.

This isn't a matter of my opinion, this is what the Bible states.

This is what I am talking about when i say explain away.....

I am merely pointing to details in the Scritpures.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Consider how we escape temptation. Does our Heavenly Father simply remove us physically away from the temptation? No, He helps us escape it by listening to Him and heeding His commandments, and thus we cannot be deceived by Satan's tempters.

The teaching by Pre-trib preachers that to escape the "hour of temptation" (Revelation 3:10) means being raptured out of this world is NOT Biblical. That's just another idea they vainly used Scripture to try and prop up the fake Pre-trib theory.

Well…consider how Noah escaped Gods wrath and Lot escaped Gods wrath. The conversation is more about wrath than temptation.

I rather see it as an “hour of testing” for the world rather than an hour of tempting, but that might be painting hairs on frogs.

But you really can’t say it is unbiblical that in the past God has removed the righteous before His wrath. There is ample precedence for it. I’ve met God fearing men with different views on it.

 

[marks]

What you are witnessing is the difficulty that people have with understanding (or converting) the difference between a life of time according to the world, compared with the timeless truth of those things written in the scriptures according to an eternal God.

Those different possible scenarios and theories taught by most teachers, are just that--theories. They are not even according to scripture...not all of scripture anyway, just parts of it, plus a bunch of conjecture.

Still, they do not represent the truth according to the ways of God. Meanwhile, all the information is in the scriptures. But it is just as it is written: "seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

The context and subject are rapturous...but the experience is not called or referred to as "the rapture" in the scriptures. That is the teachings of men. And each persons conjecture (guess) begins with not understanding one or more pieces of the scriptures. From there they are forced to move the idea of when things occur forward, one misunderstanding upon another, until all of Christendom has now come to believe that it is a mass one-time event at some unknown time in the future. Which is totally wrong. That rather, is the mass trash heap of failed conjectures of men.

Called by its proper, biblical name according to Jesus, and the context and subject, is rather the coming of "the kingdom of God."

Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God, saying, it "is like", giving many examples. And the timing of when? He told the learned Pharisees, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." Meaning, the so-called "rapture" began with some of that generation of Jesus' time, which he referred to as "this generation"...which the push-it-off-to-some-future-time peddlers have also not understood, nor even heard.

Jesus, then clarified how the kingdom would come, saying, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation." Also not acknowledged by the push-it-off-to-the-future crowd.

Jesus even told his disciples and apostles, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." And most still can't.

Nonetheless, Paul, continues on saying "for me to live is Christ" fulfilling Jesus' promise to send another Helper via the Holy Spirit, and continued where Jesus left off and explained the coming of the kingdom of God further, saying it is not mass, one-time event as so many believe, "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming." 1 Corinthians 15:23 Still, they do not hear.

That one passage alone ought to clear the whole thing up--I mean, it spells it out soooo clearly:

1. [First] "Christ the firstfruits"
2. [After Christ] "afterward those who are Christ's at His coming"
3. [Individually] "each in his own order"

...But, but, but..."afterward" that's gotta mean a "a massive, one-time event in the distant future", right??

Well, "afterward" might be kinda vague, but come on, Jesus said it "has come." And then the details are filled in again by Jesus, saying when "afterward", when "each in his own order", as, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

When? When and if anyone "hears" His voice.

In a mass future event?? No! But, "each in his own order."

Where "every eye in the world can see???" No! Not "with observation."

But, but, but, what about "every eye shall see???" ...Not in the world, but only before God.

Scott, I have a question I'd like to ask so I can know how you see this.

How does this age end? How does the age of the eternal state of righteousness begin? Do you know what I'm asking? I talk about a return of Christ, gathering of Israel, 1000 year kingdom, then dissolution of this world, this age, resurrection and judgment, and a new creation, where there is only righteousness.

What do you see? That transistions from a corrupt creation to a new creation?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, hmmm...dunno! Unless being accounted worthy is our faith and belief and trust in Christ? What will we all be doing in our personal lives when He comes? Acting like the evil servant, or seeking all things Him? How worthy must one be? Cannot see saved people reaching total fullness in this world. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom and, if one has not FULLY crucified themselves, does that mean they are not yet saved? Hope not!

well, once again, I’m not sure why being marked “needs further testing” or “some slag remaining” equals not saved. He grows the trust of men however seems best to Him.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think your record is scratched….

So long as posters make the claims of a pre-trib rapture and Millennial Kingdom on this earth, the record will be scratched

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Taken]

I could simplify maybe if you want, or we can just leave it, let me know.

Much love!

FOR all of Rev...I need sort of a 30 foot flow chart...LOL

 

[Davy]

Well…consider how Noah escaped Gods wrath and Lot escaped Gods wrath. The conversation is more about wrath than temptation.

I rather see it as an “hour of testing” for the world rather than an hour of tempting, but that might be painting hairs on frogs.

But you really can’t say it is unbiblical that in the past God has removed the righteous before His wrath. There is ample precedence for it. I’ve met God fearing men with different views on it.

God sealed Noah in the ark, remember? Christ Jesus is our Passover Lamb now, and He now represents our Ark of redemption. That means by staying in Christ, listening to Him, that is how we are protected through the coming 'great tribulation'. And He told us to not allow any man to deceive us.

And by the way, the time of Noah's ark being on top of the waters of the flood was 150 days, per the Biblical Hebrew reckoning of 30 days for a month; in Rev.9 we are shown the stinging upon those NOT sealed, will be for "five months" (i.e., 150 days). Thus we are given this metaphor also as symbolic from the time of Noah...

Rev 12:15-17
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

We aren't going anywhere for the "great tribulation". We'll be right here on earth through it, and Christ Jesus is our ARK through it, being 'sealed' by God with His seal so as to stand all the evil darts of Satan (Ephesians 6). Be strong in Christ Jesus.

 

[marks]

There is one criteria given to show inclusion in this catching away,

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive, remaining, will be caught up with them. We who? We in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first, the living in Christ are caught up to join them.

If you are "in Christ", this is you. If you are not "in Christ" this is not you.

Who are they that are "in Christ"?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

FOR all of Rev...I need sort of a 30 foot flow chart...LOL

oh yeah, good! Marks will get right on that I’m sure!

 

[marks]

FOR all of Rev...I need sort of a 30 foot flow chart...LOL

Do you think that will be large enough?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God sealed Noah in the ark, remember? Christ Jesus is our Passover Lamb now, and He now represents our Ark of redemption. That means by staying in Christ, listening to Him, that is how we are protected through the coming 'great tribulation'. And He told us to not allow any man to deceive us.

And by the way, the time of Noah's ark being on top of the waters of the flood was 150 days, per the Biblical Hebrew reckoning of 30 days for a month; in Rev.9 we are shown the stinging upon those NOT sealed, will be for "five months" (i.e., 150 days). Thus we are given this metaphor also as symbolic from the time of Noah...

Rev 12:15-17
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

We aren't going anywhere for the "great tribulation". We'll be right here on earth through it, and Christ Jesus is our ARK through it, being 'sealed' by God with His seal so as to stand all the evil darts of Satan (Ephesians 6). Be strong in Christ Jesus.

If it helps any, I think most will be left for more testing.

 

[marks]

oh yeah, good! Marks will get right on that I’m sure!

LOL! You know me!

I did that the first time about 30 years ago. I did some others maybe 20 years ago or so. Spreadsheets word good, you can copy in entire passages, and link them to where you've copied in from other prophets. Being able to look at everything together on the same page was really helpful in seeing relationships between them, but yeah, you need a Really Big Page!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And by the way, the time of Noah's ark being on top of the waters of the flood was 150 days, per the Biblical Hebrew reckoning of 30 days for a month; in Rev.9 we are shown the stinging upon those NOT sealed, will be for "five months" (i.e., 150 days). Thus we are given this metaphor also as symbolic from the time of Noah...

Ah…pretty good there brother…!

 

[Taken]

Do you think that will be large enough?

You said simple...