The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Marty fox]

No?

The tribe of Dan is replaced by the tribe of manessah

Dan was called a serpent

 

[Keraz]

Are those words a comfort to you, or would you prefer to be back here, in old Jerusalem, on old planet earth?

Yes the Words of the prophets do comfort me.
They all tell me about the wonderful time when we Christians will gather into all of the holy Land and live in peace and prosperity. There will be a difficult time for a short while, then Jesus will Return and dispose of our enemies.
All of the Lord's faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium, then comes the Judgment and everyone whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality.

We never go to heaven, Jesus said so: John 3:13, +

 

[Taken]

I think this is the more common view, actually.

For myself, I see God's program with Israel in abeyance until this scroll is opened, and then God's program for Israel resumes. And I see this 5th seal being one of the passages which show this, by the links to the sacrificial system, and the "break" between two sets of martyrs, those who cry for justice, and those who are yet to be killed.

I see this book in mostly sequential order, the timings shown in the Bible, and I see these seals being openned at once, and when it is openned the 70th week of Daniel begins.

Much love!

Sort of lost here on your points.

 

[Taken]

@marks
Hey sort of have wandered off the OP into Rev which is so in-depth dealing with all men and all Celestials that are divided. Very difficult to accomplish in this forum setting, IMO.
Back to OP pre-trib?

 

[Taken]

Yes the Words of the prophets do comfort me.
They all tell me about the wonderful time when we Christians will gather into all of the holy Land and live in peace and prosperity. There will be a difficult time for a short while, then Jesus will Return and dispose of our enemies.
All of the Lord's faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium, then comes the Judgment and everyone whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality.

We never go to heaven, Jesus said so: John 3:13, +

We are more than just a body. Souls and quickened spirits of men came from God who is in Heaven.
Natural Body’s came from the earth, die, return to the earth and wait for resurrection and judgement.
Saved souls and quickened spirits of men DO GO to Heaven to wait for their bodily resurrection.

 

[Taken]

^ To Keraz, cont'd:

As for Acts 1:11, Jesus return from Heaven will be in like manner....
The key word here is "manner", and not from where on earth.
So, what was the manner of His Ascension

[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is 1. taken up from you
2. into heaven,
3. shall so come in like manner
4. as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The under lined shall be THE MANNER OF His return, but in the reverse.

As for Zechariah 14:4 that has nothing to do with Jesus' return from Heaven, but had everything to do with His first appearance, which is described in verses 14:1-11.
Jesus spent His evenings and nights in the Mount of Olives, during His Ministry. Though He slept there, He certainly DID literally STAND in the mount of Olives, and often.
Luke.21[37] And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
Luke.22[39] And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
John.8[1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

Zech. 14:5-11, is in reference to the "mountain" of Israel being divided, and Jesus Himself being
"the Valley", that they were to "flee to", of whom was to make that "one stick" out of Israel's division shown in Ezekiel 37:16-19.

Yes.
The Son of man, came down from Heaven, Humbled, To SERVE without His “reputation” and earthly men Saw Him.
While on earth, men LEARNED of His “reputation”....ie
First.....He IS the Son of God, He IS the TRUTH, LIFE, WAY,
Secondly ....He IS the CHRIST.
(Christ IS, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God, the Quickening Spirit, the Seed of God)....

When the Son of man (whom men COULD SEE, and whom men COULD NOT SEE...but LEARNED...IS the Son of God, IS the Christ....) men WHO SAW the Son of man RISE UP to the Clouds, returning to Heaven....
What men SAW, was the Son of man...
What men KNEW, was WHO HE IS.

The Son of man......SHALL RETURN....same manner...ie Son of man...
It must needs be so......so all men CAN SEE HIM.
He comes “WITH” what “some” men on earth “LEARNED, KNEW, BELIEVE”,
(HE....IS, truth, life, way, power, wisdom, seed, spirit.....of God)

When men say.....Jesus Christ shall return.....it is condensing...
Son of man WHOM WE TRUST TO BELIEVE IS CHRIST, shall return.
In short....Son of man...shall Return WITH His “reputation”...
Supreme Power.....moving the field from...
Son of man, a Humble Servant, Serving....
TO:
Boldly ... kings position; POWER to RULE.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP^

Where IS Father.........................................Heaven
Where IS Son............................................Heaven
Where IS Lord............................................Heaven
Where IS Lamb...........................................Heaven
WHERE IS Gods holy Servant Angels..............Heaven
Where IS HS...............................................Heaven
Where IS saved departed souls/spirit..saints? Heaven
....HS...ON Earth...WHERE?...‘WITH’ Believing men ON Earth, not Converted
....HS...ON Earth...WHERE?....’IN’...Believing men ON Earth. Converted saints.

WHAT IS the WHOLE POINT OF the Last Great Tribulation?
** continuing to finalize.....DIVISION...
** WHAT DIVISION? Those WITH God FROM Those WITHOUT God
** WHAT DIVISION? Those WITH Jesus FROM Those WITHOUT Jesus
** WHAT DIVISION? Those WITH Christ FROM THOSE WITHOUT Christ.
** FINALIZE the DIVISION.....HOW?.....GODS ACT OF SEPARATION!

REVIEW WHO ALL ARE IN HEAVEN, BEFORE TRIBULATION BEGINS...
* WHY?
* ONE REASON...HEAVEN IS A HOLY SAFE HAVEN ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH, A PLACE FOR THAT WHICH IS HOLY.
* WHAT has been “MADE holy” but still ON EARTH?
* WHAT must BE “REMOVED from the Face of the EARTH” and “IN” the Earth, BEFORE WRATH commences UPON THE Face of the Earth?....to fulfill Prophecy?............THE CONVERTED IN CHRIST.
* WHAT Prophecy?
~ those NOT subject to Wrath
~ those bodily dead....spiritually crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened.
~ those bodily alive....spiritually crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened...
~ Saved like in Noah’s day...risen up to the clouds, OFF the Face of the Earth, during WRATH.

*NOTHING WHATSOEVER...has the Crucified with Christ, soul saved, spirit quickened......ie.....Converted men REMAINING ON EARTH, being subject to ANY WRATH...
(Of the Lamb, Of the Devil, OF God)

Lamb in Heaven opening Seals..................Rev 6
Four horsemen with power unleashed........Rev 6
The Lambs anger for being rejected...........ie wrath of the Lamb. Rev 6:16
Trumps..chaos..devils works, Gods works...Rev 8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-
The devils anger for being rejected............ie Devils wrath. Rev 12:12
Gods anger for being rejected...................ie Gods wrath. Rev 16:1
Satan bound 1K/ Jesus reigns 1K...............Rev 20:4 / Rev 20:6

Trib BEGINS....WHO IS ON EARTH....?
Father? No
Son? No
Lord? No
Lamb? No
Bodily (dead) living departed Saved soul saints? No.
Bodily (dead) Converted IN Christ? No.
Bodily alive Converted IN Christ? No
Satan? Yes
Fallen Angels? Yes
Jewish Believers in God, but not believers in Christ Jesus? Yes
Believers in God, in Jesus....but not Converted? Yes
Non Believers in God? Yes
Non Believers in Christ Jesus? Yes

 

[Truth7t7]

All of the Lord's faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium, then comes the Judgment and everyone whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality.

We never go to heaven, Jesus said so: John 3:13, +

That Millennium teaching is comparable to the Muslim teaching of paradise and virgins

Both are man's teachings on a promise, neither will materialize

 

[Earburner]

Yes the Words of the prophets do comfort me.
They all tell me about the wonderful time when we Christians will gather into all of the holy Land and live in peace and prosperity. There will be a difficult time for a short while, then Jesus will Return and dispose of our enemies.
All of the Lord's faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium, then comes the Judgment and everyone whose names are found in the Book of Life, will receive immortality.

We never go to heaven, Jesus said so: John 3:13, +

Immortality is immediately given to all of Christ's Saints, upon the suddeness of His return, being both the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive at His Glorious return. All in Christ will be made immortal at that time, in that very moment.

John 3[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
> And for those who have received the Holy Spirit of God, they are become NOW a New Creature (creation) by God's indwelling presence.
2 Cor. 5[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

> So, at the moment, we all who are faith, are only waiting for to be made into the likeness of Christ's immortality of His being.
But for now, until then, we who do believe, MUST make sure that we ARE IN THE KoG in the first place by His Spirit, otherwise all the religious activity of our performance, as well as ourselves, in church-ianity, shall be burned up on the day of His return, in flaming fire.
The latter part of Romans 8:9, will most definitely apply to all who DO NOT HAVE the Holy Spirit of God.
Jesus said so in the parable of the 10 Virgins.

[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
> "We", being John the Baptist and Jesus, who are the two Anointed ones, the "Two Witnesses" who were to come, as spoken of in Zech. and Rev.

[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
> Jesus is correct in how He says that.
Prior to His appearance in the flesh, upto His Ascension, no man has ever ascended into Heaven, including Enoch, Moses and/or Elijah.
Without the shed Blood of Christ being accomplished for every person, all are void of the Righteousness of God, which is the only form of righteousness that is acceptable to Him, whereby we can and do enter into the KoG/KoH.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That Millennium teaching is comparable to the Muslim teaching of paradise and virgins

Both are man's teachings on a promise, neither will materialize

Psh!! Paradise and virgins, not in Bible.
A thousand years, in the Bible. Three times in one passage.

If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
Reign over…who?

 

[marks]

By Covered up and explained away I am referring to the plain reading of Matthew 24 which has the rapture occur AFTER the Great tribulation

By covered up and explained away then, you simply mean, a view other than your own. But for some reason you cannot seem to find it within yourself to give another person some simple courtesy to allow them their opinion without you turning it into some accusation.

You have to take them down.

From the heart, the mouth speaks.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What you are witnessing is the difficulty that people have with understanding (or converting) the difference between a life of time according to the world, compared with the timeless truth of those things written in the scriptures according to an eternal God.

I think some also have a difficulty believing the words they read.

I'm going to need a few more readings of your post to digest it, don't think I'm ignoring you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The tribe of Dan is replaced by the tribe of manessah

Dan was called a serpent

Ok, but there were still 12,000 each from 12 tribes. Dan is left out, Manessah is included, and we are still talking 144,000 of the children of Jacob, aren't we?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Thanks again

But it is disputable because its not actually the 12 tribes

I just realized, you said, "the" 12 tribes. There are actually 14 tribal names God can choose from, including Joseph and his 2 sons. If memory serves, all make their appearances in the various lists of tribes.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks
Hey sort of have wandered off the OP into Rev which is so in-depth dealing with all men and all Celestials that are divided. Very difficult to accomplish in this forum setting, IMO.
Back to OP pre-trib?

I agree with you.

What have I done?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sort of lost here on your points.

I could simplify maybe if you want, or we can just leave it, let me know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is not a man...man of sin etc. that kills the two witnesses but rather the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit (Aka Abaddon a fallen angel.). The bottomless pit is not opened until the fifth trumpet. The two witnesses stand in opposition to the man of sin who claims to be God. They by their plagues will show that he is not God and in turn will be demonized and blamed for the plagues.

Actually, "man" isn't specified in the Bible here. "If any".

Will this matter to you? Or will you call this "explained away"?

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

Ok, but there were still 12,000 each from 12 tribes. Dan is left out, Manessah is included, and we are still talking 144,000 of the children of Jacob, aren't we?

Much love!

Yes 12 tribes times the 12 apostles equals 144 and 1000 meaning many just like the walls in the New Jerusalem are 144 cubics thick why is the number always 144?

 

[marks]

and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(Matthew 24:29-31) (All one paragraph)

Do You see it? the rapture comes after the great tribulation.

This "elect" is the chosen nation Israel, exactly as prophesied several times in the OT. This is not the rapture of the church. The church was not yet revealed. The language usage of the day didn't mean that either. There was no such thing as a gentile church who would be caught up. Not yet.

But there was a chosen people, and the rest, the nations, the gentiles. The nations include the righteous and unrighteous, and Jesus separates them as sheep and goats. The chosen - Israel - are gathered in entirety, and in entirety saved.

If you have the church being gathered when Israel is gathered, from whence come the sheep? If they are declared righteous by Christ, why weren't they gathered with the elect? There is no answer to that question that is not contradicted in Scripture. Well, there is one. That Jesus raptures the church, then remains in the sky, above the earth, with the church, while He finishes His wrath. Strangely, I know some who believe that. Some sort of He's not really come since He hasn't "touched down" yet.

Ask any Jew in Jesus' day . . . who are the chosen, and who are the nations? The Jews, and the gentiles. Will the Jews be gathered to their land, and the gentiles gathered for judgment? Yes. See Joel. Isaiah. Ezekiel. A number of places.

And in all of these . . . the church had not yet been revealed. And the prophecies named Israel, and the gentiles.

The gathering of Israel happens directly after the great tribulation, exactly as prophesied. Trying to put the church into that causes irreconcileable conflicts with other passages, and does not follow the already established pattern shown throughout the prophecies of this time.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes 12 tribes times the 12 apostles equals 144 and 1000 meaning many just like the walls in the New Jerusalem are 144 cubics thick why is the number always 144?

To tell us that numbers of people aren't that? What if they were, How would God say it?

If God were to seal 144,000 people, and wanted to tell us that, how would He do that? What would He be able to say to you so that you would know that's what He meant?

Much love!