The Pre-Trib Rapture

[WPM]

If it is unanticipated that rules out Revelation 20:7-11. It also rules out Revelation 19. Neither are those times and events the parousia Jesus was talking about. It is Amil that re-write Scripture to fit their theology. It would also make 2 more parousia for Amil. They would be hypocritics to deny that. They also need to add human opinion that combines two different events and call them parallel, which is forcing a drastic change to both text, when they both are very much expected events, and also separate events.

One event has Satan being loosed after 1,000 years. The other event has Satan in total control of the earth for 42 months, and about to be bound in a pit. Both involving a specific time reference, and an expected conclusion of an expected event. And only one involves Jesus coming from heaven to earth. Revelation 19 is an expected coming. The Second Coming per the OD is unexpected and not involving Satan either.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[WPM]

Notice two terms given which are not equivalent. The question becomes whether kai in this case is copulative or explicative. Something like, "His appearing, even His presence", these can be explicative as they are the same sorts of things. Where I am, and what I have or do are not the same sorts of things. So for myself, I read, "his appearing and his kingdom" as the copulative use of kai. Two terms that are not equivalent.

Much love!

There is no thousand years mentioned here. You have to insert it in there. This is another passage that exposes Pretrib and shows a general judgment. There are many, as i showed you above.

 

[Taken]

?

You asked what is like “coming”...answer return.
Your point of asking?
You said 3rd return...what do you mean?

 

[WPM]

You asked what is like “coming”...answer return.
Your point of asking?
You said 3rd return...what do you mean?

Pretribulationists employ Scripture as supposed proof that Christ is coming in a two-stage return, firstly, at ‘the rapture’ to the sky for His saints and, secondly, at the revelation of Christ (which they say is different from the rapture and is a third coming 7 years later) which they argue involves the Lord’s ‘coming to the earth with His saints’.

 

[marks]

There is no thousand years mentioned here. You have to insert it in there. This is another passage that exposes Pretrib and shows a general judgment. There are many, as i showed you above.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the use of the words in the passage you are pointing to. You treat the words as equivalent, I don't think that's correct. The 1000 years aside . . .

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Pretribulationists employ Scripture as supposed proof that Christ is coming in a two-stage return, firstly, at ‘the rapture’ to the sky for His saints and, secondly, at the revelation of Christ (which they say is different from the rapture and is a third coming 7 years later) which they argue involves the Lord’s ‘coming to the earth with His saints’.

I believe pre-Trib rapture...and not 3 coming/returns as you describe.

 

[marks]

There is no thousand years mentioned here. You have to insert it in there. This is another passage that exposes Pretrib and shows a general judgment. There are many, as i showed you above.

Again, there is a judgment that happens on the earth when Jesus comes,

Joel 3:1-2 LITV
1) For, behold, in those days and in that time, when I bring again the exiles of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

And a judgment outside of this earth,

Revelation 20:11-12 LITV
11) And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them.
12) And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works.

These are not the same.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

1 Peter 5:8 LITV
8) Be sensible, watch, because your adversary the Devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking someone he may devour;

Much love!

 

[marks]

Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Revelation 20:1-3 LITV
1) And I saw an angel coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand.
2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time.

Are you saying this describes Satan's status now? Or am I misunderstanding?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

1 Peter 5:8 LITV
8) Be sensible, watch, because your adversary the Devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking someone he may devour;

Much love!

Yes 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We have power over Satan since the cross!

While Satan resists you, the Bible says you have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against you.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish.

1. Satan is a spiritual being.
2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.
3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.
4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.
5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.
6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 20:1-3 LITV
1) And I saw an angel coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand.
2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time.

Are you saying this describes Satan's status now? Or am I misunderstanding?

Much love!

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[marks]

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

So that's a yes?

These questions all sound to me like philosophical challenges to not believe the Bible as written.

and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled.

How much mobility do you think this is supposed to show?

The devil walks about like a roaring lion looking for someone to eat.

Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about? Sure, how long is the chain?

and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled.

Here again, I don't see any commentary needed, just allow the passage to speak for itself.

Bound, thrown into the abyss, shut up, sealed over, so he should not lead the nations astray.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We have power over Satan since the cross!

Amen!!!!!!

Not because he's been bound, that hasn't happened yet. But because we've been made alive.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Notice two terms given which are not equivalent. The question becomes whether kai in this case is copulative or explicative. Something like, "His appearing, even His presence", these can be explicative as they are the same sorts of things. Where I am, and what I have or do are not the same sorts of things. So for myself, I read, "his appearing and his kingdom" as the copulative use of kai. Two terms that are not equivalent.

Much love!

Could you repeat that in 1st grade English? LOL

 

[marks]

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?

This can serve for an example.

Is Satan, are the other fallen angels, are the demons physical beings?

1 Corinthians 15:39-41 KJV
39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

What does it mean, Physical? Do they seem solid to themselves in their celestial realm? Will a celestial being seem solid to us in the terrestrial realm?

Abraham ate and drank with God and two angels. An angel grabbed ahold of Lot and his wife and daughters to bring them out of Sodom.

There is a kind of being created to live in the terrestrial realm, and another kind of being created to live in the celestial realm. And it seems that there can be some travel back and forth. "in the year King Uziah died, I saw the LORD." I know a man, 14 years ago, was caught up into the 3rd heaven. Like that.

Our perceptions of physicality aside, we should allow the Bible to speak in the ways it does, to form the pictures in our minds that if forms, as these will more readily align our minds with God's Word.

Is the devil a big red lizard? I don't know. But is there a reason why God describes him this way? Absolutely! And we shouldn't disregard the descriptiveness in the Bible just because it seems like a round peg in the square hole of our understanding. We should allow our minds to be formed by Scripture.

So again, returning to, Bound, tossed into the pit, covered, sealed, so he can't lead astray . . . this paints a certain picture, and I'm not going to add my own brush strokes . . . He's got a window . . . His chain is really long . . . He's got free roaming and long distance . . . I don't think so.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Could you repeat that in 1st grade English? LOL

I don't know, I could barely say it that way!

Let's see . . . Paul was making the point that there would be a single judgment of humanity when Jesus returned, citing,

For example, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

His argument was that Jesus will judge the living and the dead when He appears, so this is a single judgment.

My response is that this would mean that "and his kingdom" is the same thing as "at his appearing", else, "his kingdom" may be different, and that the judgment of the living and dead do not necessarily happen at the same time.

So this argument hinges on "and", "at his appearing AND his kingdom". And, kai, has 2 primary uses. One is called explicative, that is, one explains the other, and can be translated "even". "Both me and Rover KAI my best hunting dog." If you translate Kai there "and", the sentence is wrong, and should read, "Both me and rover, even my best hunting dog". One explains the other.

Then you have what is called the copulative use, one adds to the other. "All three of us, me, Rover, kai my best hunting dog." In this case, the context requires "Kai" to be additive, so you'd translated "and". All three of us, me, Rover, and my best hunting dog.

So here, if "at his appearing" is the same thing as "His kingdom", OK, this passage could allow that the living and dead are both judged at that time. Now, to be sure, there is a lot more that tells us differently. But just staying with this passage, if "his kingdom" refers to something other than "his appearing", then this support for a single judgment goes away.

"I'll judge the criminals and the Christians when I come and at the service." Two judgments may be in view in that case. It's not a proof text for a single judgment that comprises all people.

Did that help? It's hard for me to tell!



Much love!

 

[WPM]

So that's a yes?

These questions all sound to me like philosophical challenges to not believe the Bible as written.

and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled.

How much mobility do you think this is supposed to show?

The devil walks about like a roaring lion looking for someone to eat.

Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about? Sure, how long is the chain?

and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled.

Here again, I don't see any commentary needed, just allow the passage to speak for itself.

Bound, thrown into the abyss, shut up, sealed over, so he should not lead the nations astray.

Much love!

This explains why you struggle to grasp Rev 20.

 

[marks]

4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.

How many times must God say something for it to be true?

Here is something else only said once . . .

Revelation 19:20 KJV
20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Only once . . .

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Only once . . .

Genesis 3:1-5 KJV
1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Even if God only says it once, we can still receive His saying as true.

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Choose to not believe and be left behind if you want=no skin off my nose!!!

1 Thess 4:15 Those that fight and reject the rapture are left behind!!!
The catching up of believers IS the rapture.
15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord. 17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth """will be caught up""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. 18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.===Caught up IS the rapture. After the years of the great tribulation Jesus will return to earth and bring the raptured believers with Him and defeat all evil and set up His eternal kingdom here on earth and God will have His home here for all eternity!. PTL

 

[marks]

This explains why you struggle to grasp Rev 20.

That's a bit presumptive, don't you think? Will you now turn to ad hominem arguments? Do you now prefer to talk about me instead of the Bible? Any comment on what I wrote? Or just about me?

Much love!