The Pre-Trib Rapture

[teamventure]

Do you also think that a thousand generations is obviously literal such as the thousand generations referenced here:

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

Do you think that a thousand years is only symbolic?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thing is . . . your whole derisive attitude really doesn't inspire me to continue our discussion. If you think it's so ridiculous . . . move on.

That's fine with me. You're clearly insistent on interpreting everything literally, so trying to convince you otherwise is obviously a waste of my time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think that a thousand years is only symbolic?

Yes. I'm an amillennialist. Are you familiar with that term? Seeing the thousand years as a literal thousand year time period on earth after the return of Christ contradicts a lot of scripture. Is it important to you to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you are reading without understanding, since your comments are moot by what I've written. I've never claimed everything is literal, and I've made very specific statements about what is or may be symbolic.

If the Bible does not present something as a symbol, then if you call something a symbol, that's all that is happening. Someone is calling something in the Bible a symbol. It's a man's word, but not God's Word.

And if the Bible does not present the meaning of the symbols it uses, then if you give a meaning, that's all it is, the meaning of something as conjectured by a man. Man's word, not God's Word.

Unless the Bible says something is a symbol, and gives the meaning of the symbol, then symbolic interpretations lack Scriptural authority. This is axiomatic. If the Bible doesn't say it, then the Bible doesn't say it.

The fact is, many people seem fond of calling things symbols, and then telling you what it means, as a way to negate what is actually written, because they cannot reconcile the passage to their view.

What better way to deny dispensationalism than to deny the prophecies that show it? No, that's not a literal 144,000 Jews. No, that's not literal Israel, not really a temple, no, not Jews fleeing Judea! Not a literal regathering of Israel to their land, no a literal judgment of the nations! No, none of that is real, but I will tell you what it all means!

That's not how I handle Scripture.

Much love!

Do you think Paul would agree with how you handle scripture, which seems to be the same way someone would handle reading a news article (all straightforward literal text with no spiritual discernment needed to interpret it)?

When I read what Paul said about what our approach to interpreting scripture should be, it doesn't look at all like what you're saying.

1 Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” the things God has prepared for those who love him—10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[teamventure]

Yes. I'm an amillennialist.

Well, then therein lies your problem.

 

[Phoneman777]

You follow the teachings of Ellen G. White and 7th Day Adventism

Sure I follow the teachings of my church because they are Biblically sound, proven to stand the test of Biblical scrutiny.

What you follow is Jesuit Futurism so the next time you're in the church confessional, make sure to ask your Catholic priest for forgiveness for being so ashamed of Loyola. Be proud of your Jesuit heritage, friar

 

[Phoneman777]

Some of us can read the Bible. We don't need theology let alone bad theology to dictate what we can read for ourselves. If the conclusions happen to go against human theology, then it is one's human theology in error and not what the Scriptures state.

Throwing around labels means one is too lazy to actually participate in a discussion of God's Word. It is only rabbit trails on why dead people got it all wrong. You all can talk about dead people, but some of us just like discussing God's Word.

If you're believing some Antichrist literal person is coming during the "last 7 years of tribulation" (after Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with the saints) to sit down in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and will broker a 7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews which he will break halfway through and usher in Armageddon...

...you're following satanic teachings of the Antichrist papal Jesuit Order, and you'd be wise to put that aside and look up what the great Protestant Reformers - to whom you disrespectfully call "dead guys" and with whom none of us deserve to even stand in the same room - wrote and why they believed what they believed ad find out why Protestant Historicism ruled the land for centuries and why Jesuit Futurism is the new kid on the block.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL. Says the guy who thinks Christ will literally kill His enemies with a sword coming out of His mouth.

Which is what the bible describes in Revelation 19. I'll accept the bible over what your theological biased doctrine teaches.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

If you're believing some Antichrist literal person is coming during the "last 7 years of tribulation" (after Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with the saints) to sit down in a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and will broker a 7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews which he will break halfway through and usher in Armageddon...

...you're following satanic teachings of the Antichrist papal Jesuit Order, and you'd be wise to put that aside and look up what the great Protestant Reformers - to whom you disrespectfully call "dead guys" and with whom none of us deserve to even stand in the same room - wrote and why they believed what they believed ad find out why Protestant Historicism ruled the land for centuries and why Jesuit Futurism is the new kid on the block.

No, I don't accept all that, but thanks for asking.

You so called "new kid on the block" is as old as your Protestant Historicism, 1560.

 

[covenantee]

No, I don't accept all that, but thanks for asking.

You so called "new kid on the block" is as old as your Protestant Historicism, 1560.

John Nelson Darby lived in 1560?

 

[Taken]

That's fine with me. You're clearly insistent on interpreting everything literally, so trying to convince you otherwise is obviously a waste of my time.

It is not a matter of “interpreting” literal words.

It’s a matter of trusting the literal words revealed in Scripture.

Interpretation of the literal words, is Gods interpretation.

Gods interpretation is a Gift from God TO a man WHO IS WITH God.

 

[Davy]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture, is not a Theory.
It is an understanding, for those who KNOW:
What the prefix “PRE” means.
What specific “Tribulation” is being Referenced.
What “Rapture” means.

It ain't difficult to KNOW BEYOND ALL DOUBT the timing when Jesus said He will come and gather His saints. He showed it in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation.

So there is NO EXCUSE for those who preach against the timing He showed. It's time to repent of preaching a false pre-trib rapture, because the time is really, really getting short today for His return.

 

[Davy]

The thought that pre-tribers will be damned is not even implied in scripture at all and is even a stretch for the most imaginative. It's rubbish.

Oh yes it is written in Scripture, you just don't understand it, yet.

Ezekiel 13 is one of the places where God warned the "house of Israel" about those who teach His people 'to fly' to save their souls. God made it obvious in that Ezekiel 13 Chapter that He is against that false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, and particularly those who preach it...

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

I'm not saying those pastors who preach that false Pre-trib Rapture theory will be condemned. I don't have that authority, no man does, but only Jesus Christ. But God's Message above is enough to know those teaching that won't be allowed to approach Jesus when He returns!

And how can we know that Ezekiel 13 is for Christ's Church? Because God gave a reference to the ten tribe "house of Israel" in it, and about making a stand in the "day of the Lord", which is about the LAST DAY of this world (see Ezekiel 13:5). Most are not aware, but probably the majority of the scattered ten lost tribes wound up in the western Christian nations and accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus they make up a HUGE PORTION of Christ's Church today!

 

[The Light]

Then you are reading without understanding

Indeed.

What better way to deny dispensationalism than to deny the prophecies that show it? No, that's not a literal 144,000 Jews. No, that's not literal Israel, not really a temple, no, not Jews fleeing Judea! Not a literal regathering of Israel to their land, no a literal judgment of the nations! No, none of that is real, but I will tell you what it all means!

Fact. Many of those in blindness are there because they cannot accept what is written. The 144,000 are twelve thousand from each tribe. Period. They are not the corporate manchild or other such nonsense. They are not the Gentile Church, and they do not represent all of the Jews of Israel. Read what it says. Accept what it says. Period.

 

[Timtofly]

John Nelson Darby lived in 1560?

John was not a Jesuit. If you place the word "Jesuit" in your statement you point out it started in 1560. If you call it dispensationalism only then, no. You don't even know the history you are pushing?

 

[Timtofly]

Most are not aware, but probably the majority of the scattered ten lost tribes wound up in the western Christian nations and accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus they make up a HUGE PORTION of Christ's Church today!

Most are not aware that they were spread across the world to every nation. No, they don't make up a huge portion of the church, in the western nations. That is like saying everyone in Great Britain, Wales, and Ireland are all descendants from the 10 lost tribes. How about Native Americans, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Chinese people?

 

[Phoneman777]

No, I don't accept all that, but thanks for asking.

You so called "new kid on the block" is as old as your Protestant Historicism, 1560.

Look, Tim, if you want to discuss texts and historic facts great, but check the emotionally driven comments about "labels" and "we know how to read" at the door, understand?

Now, you claim Futurism is fact, so please explain how there's going to be "7 years of tribulation" following Jesus coming as a thief in the night when 2 Peter 3:10 KJV says when that happens the Earth and the atmosphere are going to light up the Milky Way sky with fire.

 

[Timtofly]

Look, Tim, if you want to discuss texts and historic facts great, but check the emotionally driven comments about "labels" and "we know how to read" at the door, understand?

Now, you claim Futurism is fact, so please explain how there's going to be "7 years of tribulation" following Jesus coming as a thief in the night when 2 Peter 3:10 KJV says when that happens the Earth and the atmosphere are going to light up the Milky Way sky with fire.

Explain to me futurism. I am not that label. When have I thrown around labels?

Have I ever claimed the Milky Way sky will burn with fire?

I am pre-mill, because there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Everything else is "100 condiments" added to a sandwich, and how do you like your sandwich?

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth. That is where every one loads up their sandwich. The 1,000 years will be whatever happens.

 

[Phoneman777]

Explain to me futurism. I am not that label. When have I thrown around labels?

Have I ever claimed the Milky Way sky will burn with fire?

I am pre-mill, because there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Everything else is "100 condiments" added to a sandwich, and how do you like your sandwich?

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth. That is where every one loads up their sandwich. The 1,000 years will be whatever happens.

Jesuit Futurism is the teaching that arose decades after Protestant Historicism as part of the Papal "counter-Reformation" to the "Protestant Reformation". It says the Antichrist will arise at the beginning of the "last 7 years of tribulation" and sit in a rebuilt "temple of God" in Jerusalem and broker a "7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews" which this "Antichrist" will break 1/2 way through the 7 years, which results in Armageddon, after which Jesus will come in glory and power and Earth-shaking thunder and begin a 1,000 year reign on Earth over the wicked.

Not a single word of this is true.

 

[Taken]

It ain't difficult to KNOW BEYOND ALL DOUBT the timing when Jesus said He will come and gather His saints. He showed it in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation.

So there is NO EXCUSE for those who preach against the timing He showed. It's time to repent of preaching a false pre-trib rapture, because the time is really, really getting short today for His return.

It is not a mystery. Gods Tribulation sent down from Heaven UPON the Earth and its Inhabitants; IS because of Gods Wrath; and Gods Wrath is Because of Gods Anger of mans CORRUPTION.

Not a mystery, CORRUPTION, is expressly THAT WHICH IS AGAINST God!

Apparently a MYSTERY to You...
* From the Beginning of Gods Creation; God Established “DIVISIONS”.
(Gen 1 - Ex 8:23)
* Jesus reiterated Divisions of and among the People.
(Luke 12:51 - John 7:43)

Hebrews, Tribes, Jews are all divisions from Gentiles.
There are Divisions among the Hebrews, Tribes, Jews.
There are Divisions among the Gentiles.

Some DO, Some DO NOT, Some are UNSURE, Some are SURE...
IF they Believe IN God, IF they Believe in Jesus IS the Christ Messiah.
ALL will bodily die, AND THEIR Belief on the day of their DEATH...
WILL DETERMINE their FOREVER FATE.

The Lord God Himself, Separates the “Divided”, “According to His ORDER, WAY, WILL, PLEASURE”.

You “presume” YOU somehow have the Authority to DICTATE the APPLICATIONS of “SEPARATIONS” of the “DIVIDED”, according to YOUR WILL.

While ALL Scripture IS TRUE, ALL Scripture DOES NOT Apply to ALL MEN.

Not news.
God has SEPARATED souls from body’s of men since the Beginning.
God has SAVED Some Separated souls.
God has NOT SAVED Some Separated souls.
(Not one of those SAVED by God “Confessed” a Belief in Jesus Being the Christ Messiah; YET those souls ARE SAINTS, dwelling WITH God, IN Heaven.)

Not news.
Once God Sent His Word to earth, Called His Word JESUS, Revealed JESUS is the LORD’S Lord, Revealed the LORD’S Lord, IS the Power, Wisdom, Seed OF God, called the Christ Messiah...
* A NEW OFFERING was established FOR manKIND.
* ANY of manKIND reaching out and TAKING that NEW OFFERING (according to Gods ORDER and WAY)...
* Gods Faithful Promise Thereafter WOULD APPLY to that ONE INDIVIDUAL man, Taking, Accepting Gods Offering.

Not news.
Not every man reaches out and Takes, Accepts or Receives Gods NEW Offering.

You giving me Scriptures that APPLIES to men who DID NOT reach out, DID NOT Take, DID NOT Receive, Gods NEW Offering (According to Gods ORDER and WAY)...HAS NOTHING whatsoever to DO with me, my Freewill, my choice, my having ALREADY TAKEN and RECEIVED Gods Offering (According to Gods Order and Way).

You ignoring the very BASICS of Gods Order and Way, and HOW and WHY, what Scripturally DOES APPLY, and DOES NOT APPLY to individual men, IS your FAIL, that YOU attempt to PROJECT upon other men.

End of Days Tribulation, IS Gods Tribulation, IS Gods Anger, IS Gods Wrath, IS Gods Punishments; That God Himself sends down from Heaven, Against ALL ungodliness and ALL unrighteousness of men.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

IF YOU, have NOT discovered, BY, THROUGH, OF, Christ the Lord Jesus,
HOW TO BE MADE, “in the Truth, righteous and godly”... then Yes, absolutely IF your are still bodily alive on the day, Gods Sends His Tribulations, Wrath down to earth....You will be subject to the effects OF Gods Tribulation and Wrath.

However:
YOU are not the one who Chooses for every Individual man.
YOU are not the one who Decides the Outcome for every Individual man.

I KNOW expressly what was Gods NEW Offering.
I KNOW expressly when it was Offered, why it was Offered, how to accept Gods offering, what it means to accept Gods Offering, and what it means for men who reject Gods Offering.
I TRUST God is faithful.

However:
You project Gods Tribulations and wrath APPLIES TO the “unrighteous and ungodly” AND TO the “righteous and godly”... THAT IS FALSE.

Perhaps you HAVE NOT come to the TRUTH of the DIFFERENCE Between;
righteous and godly......AND unrighteousness and ungodly.