The pre-tribulational rapture

[oliver]

ENOCH2010, The rapture is part of the first resurrection.

There are two resurrections: of the righteous and of the wicked; these are not events but classes. All the wicked are resurrected after the millennium to face the judgement of the great white throne (Rev 20:5,11-13), but the first resurrection is extended. The very first person in the first resurrection is the Lord himself, who is the first fruits and was resurrected on the feast of first fruits. Those who died in Christ are resurrected at the rapture and those still alive are transformed into resurrection bodies (1 Thess 4:16-17; 1 Cor 15:51-52). Those who come to believe after the rapture are resurrected at Jesus' return (Rev 20:4). Somewhere along the line, the saints of pre-church Israel are resurrected, presumably at Jesus' return. Those who are righteous during the millennium are not specifically mentioned; I suppose they are transformed at the end of it

 

[us2are1]

Trekson, "PM" ?

SoM, you are still doing it. Please show how 1 Thess 4 fits in with Rev 19, Matt 24 and so on. Do not skate over details; they are essential. If your picture doesn't handle them, it is a false picture.

You are not supposed to make an image or picture or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

You are the one who brought this vanity of men to the board with no scriptural backing.

The scriptures are plain and Speak what the Lord intended. all you have to do is be willing to listen to what they actually say. without trying to support any predisposed doctrines of demons. For instance. Christ said in Matthew 24 that the elect will be here during the great tribulation.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

How can the elect be deceived if they are not here?

I already pointed out the fact that Christ comes in 1 thes 4 with the trum of god that everyone will hear. so that scripture alone strikes any secret coming.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God."

How many points of false do you need to throw out false doctrine and ask God for His Spirit?

 

[oliver]

Which elect is he talking about? He is addressing Jews; they are required to keep the Sabbath; they are living in Jerusalem. This is NOT the church.

The scripture doesn't say anything about the rapture's being secret. I really don't know where that idea comes from - probably popular literature.

There is a lot more to deal with than this; you are still using single extracts rather than integrating all that scripture says.

One scriptural pointer that I forgot is the correspondence of the feasts of Israel to prophetic events.

The spring feasts (Passover, Unleavend bread and First fruits) are prophetic of Jesus' first coming, his sacrifice, his sinlessness and his resurrection. The feast of weeks (Pentecost) is prophetic of the founding of the church. The autumn feasts are prophetic of the events of the last days.

First is the feast of Trumpets; this is prophetic of the rapture of the church. The final long trumpet blast of this day was called the last trumpet, and it is this, not the 7th trumpet of Revelation, that Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15.

The day of Atonement is prophetic of Israel's repentance and restoration.

The feast of tabernacles is prophetic of God in Christ' and his finally dwelling among his redeemed people.

 

[us2are1]

Which elect is he talking about? He is addressing Jews; they are required to keep the Sabbath; they are living in Jerusalem. This is NOT the church.

The scripture doesn't say anything about the rapture's being secret. I really don't know where that idea comes from - probably popular literature.

There is a lot more to deal with than this; you are still using single extracts rather than integrating all that scripture says.

A nation of antichrist have nothing in God. Only those who have Christ as their king are heirs to the promises of God..

 

[ENOCH2010]

ENOCH2010, The rapture is part of the first resurrection.

There are two resurrections: of the righteous and of the wicked; these are not events but classes. All the wicked are resurrected after the millennium to face the judgement of the great white throne (Rev 20:5,11-13), but the first resurrection is extended. The very first person in the first resurrection is the Lord himself, who is the first fruits and was resurrected on the feast of first fruits. Those who died in Christ are resurrected at the rapture and those still alive are transformed into resurrection bodies (1 Thess 4:16-17; 1 Cor 15:51-52). Those who come to believe after the rapture are resurrected at Jesus' return (Rev 20:4). Somewhere along the line, the saints of pre-church Israel are resurrected, presumably at Jesus' return. Those who are righteous during the millennium are not specifically mentioned; I suppose they are transformed at the end of it

Oliver the only thing I see wrong with is, that isn't what the Bible says. Ture the Lord was the first fruit of the resurrection,but the rest of your statement is only an opinion,that isn't supported by scripture.The Bible only speaks of 2 mass resurrections,the first resurrection happens at the second comming of the Lord (in the 20th chapter of Rev.) and the second, after the millinal reign.Don't you think that another resurrection happening prior to the rapture and tribulation, would have gotten just a little ink in Gods Word.

 

[us2are1]

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So many false foundations.

 

[oliver]

I suppose you are talking of Israel. Ezekiel prophesied their return in unbelief (chapter 20). Paul speaks of their future restoration (Romans 11:25-32)

ENOCH2010 The ones resurrected at Christ's return are specifically those who were killed during the tribulation (Rev 20:4). 1 Thess 4 says taht those who died in Christ will be resurrected before the transformation of the living saints and will meet the Lord in the air. Even if one accepts a post-tribulational view, these are two separate events, not one mass resurrection of the righteous.

SoM, I have indeed gathered that you don't like the doctrine of the rapture, but aggressively quoting little scraps of scripture is not a substitute for reasoned exposition.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Again Oliver the 1 Thes 4 scripture can be placed at the second comming where it belongs,if you will just take the Bible for what it says.

 

[us2are1]

I suppose you are talking of Israel. Ezekiel prophesied their return in unbelief (chapter 20). Paul speaks of their future restoration (Romans 11:25-32)

ENOCH2010 The ones resurrected at Christ's return are specifically those who were killed during the tribulation (Rev 20:4). 1 Thess 4 says taht those who died in Christ will be resurrected before the transformation of the living saints and will meet the Lord in the air. Even if one accepts a post-tribulational view, these are two separate events, not one mass resurrection of the righteous.

More non scriptural poppycock. The dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye. It all happens in a moment in the flash of lightning when the son of man appears they will all appear with him. All 144,000 of them.

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

[rockytopva]

It simply does not hurt to believe in a pre-trib rapture... Especially as the scripture has said...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40


As in the time of Noah and Lot (ordinary times) the son of man cometh (rapture)... Be ready for it!

 

[us2are1]

It simply does not hurt to believe in a pre-trib rapture... Especially as the scripture has said...

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40


As in the time of Noah and Lot (ordinary times) the son of man cometh (rapture)... Be ready for it!

It didn't hurt Eve to believe the serpent in the garden?
It didn't hurt Israel to believe the lies of the false prophets?
It doesn't hurt to believe a false gospel keeping you from doing what Christ said?

Wrong God my friend.

9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know,
10and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'?
11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," says the Lord.

 

[oliver]

More non scriptural poppycock. The dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye. It all happens in a moment in the flash of lightning when the son of man appears they will all appear with him. All 144,000 of them.

Only 144,000 dead in Christ? After nearly 2,000 years? Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something? The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each tribe (Rev 7). I'm amazed that you come out with such rubbish and then say I am "unscriptural"!

Whatever scheme of interpretation you have, it needs to be tested, and one of the tests is whether it makes sense of all the scriptures taken together. The details matter. Another test is that the scheme actually hangs together to give a coherent and rational account. You are making no attempt to do either. Instead you just produce occasional verses and spout them out with no attempt to integrate them properly.

 

[Foreigner]

More non scriptural poppycock. The dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye. It all happens in a moment in the flash of lightning when the son of man appears they will all appear with him. All 144,000 of them.

-- What?
No offense, but............wow. Please tell me you're joking.

 

[us2are1]

-- What?
No offense, but............wow. Please tell me you're joking.

No I'm not Joking. I don't joke about the truth and salvation.

So what is your question?

Only 144,000 dead in Christ? After nearly 2,000 years? Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something? The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each tribe (Rev 7). I'm amazed that you come out with such rubbish and then say I am "unscriptural"!

Whatever scheme of interpretation you have, it needs to be tested, and one of the tests is whether it makes sense of all the scriptures taken together. The details matter. Another test is that the scheme actually hangs together to give a coherent and rational account. You are making no attempt to do either. Instead you just produce occasional verses and spout them out with no attempt to integrate them properly.

You could have read the truth about what you are trying to preach here from the board administrator. http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15958-what-about-the-rapture/#entry151369
I have already made false doctrine out of it for you but you don't know how to blush.
You haven't given any scriptures that support Darby's and Scofield's fleecing gospel. They couldn't either.
You would have to know first what is scripture and what is not and every word that has proceeded out of the mouth of God before you can rightly divide the word of truth and integrate anything. If you had you certainly would not be preaching the trash that you are.

 

[oliver]

Yes, I read that post, but for some reason I am not able to reply to it. It has a number of errors.

What is this "fleecing gospel " you are talking about?

Just calling something "trash" does not show anything except your ability to throw insults. Go through what I originally wrote and refute each point by scripture. So far, I merely hear someone spouting a party line without understanding.

 

[us2are1]

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. the heart is the foundation that a man is based on

What else could we expect? Trash in trash out. This scripture fits perfectly.

But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Repent and believe the Gospel of Christ for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ask God for His Spirit and then walk in it.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I can't believe this guy!

Just ignore him . He comes across as Anti-Christian on all topics.
I wonder why he is even on this forum.
Furthermore he is delusional and actually thinks he is the Son of Man (the description used by Jesus of Himself).


By the way Oliver , I tend to agree with everything in your opening post. You have put a lot of thought into it and I find it well written. Thanks.

After 25 years of looking at "the rapture question" , I have come to similar conclusions.

 

[us2are1]

Just ignore him . He comes across as Anti-Christian on all topics.
I wonder why he is even on this forum.
Furthermore he is delusional and actually thinks he is the Son of Man (the description used by Jesus of Himself).


By the way Oliver , I tend to agree with everything in your opening post. You have put a lot of thought into it and I find it well written. Thanks.

After 25 years of looking at "the rapture question" , I have come to similar conclusions.

Ezekiel was the original son of man. But what do you know? Why wouldn't vanity stick together?
Since you choose not to follow Christ you might as well make up your own gospels and perish in your delusion.

Still God loses nothing.

But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

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These are the only ones who rule with Christ in the beginning of His thousand year reign. The total number of worthy Saints. This is not the great multitude who are the subjects of Christ's kingdom.

3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.



.

 

[oliver]

It seems reasonable that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are the same as those of chapter 14, in which case they are Jews, but they do not seem to be connected to those beheaded for the name of Christ who reign with Christ for the thousand years (Rev 20:4). Why do you make that identification?

As to their being the only ones, Rev 20:6 says that all who share in the first resurrection, also identified as those over whom the second death has no power and therefore identified with those who are saved, will reign with him for the thousand years.

 

[us2are1]

It seems reasonable that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are the same as those of chapter 14, in which case they are Jews, but they do not seem to be connected to those beheaded for the name of Christ who reign with Christ for the thousand years (Rev 20:4). Why do you make that identification?

As to their being the only ones, Rev 20:6 says that all who share in the first resurrection, also identified as those over whom the second death has no power and therefore identified with those who are saved, will reign with him for the thousand years.

All who love and follow Christ are Jews. Some in the blood line and others by adoption. It makes no difference they are all the same. Some were martyred for Christ and others will be alive at His coming. Total there are only one hundred and forty four thousand sealed servants of God on mount Zion with the Lamb.

There will also be twenty four Elders which will include Enoch, Elijah, Abraham and David and John. There will be twelve apostles siting on twelve thrones directing the hundred and forty four thousand saints. There will be two anointed ones, the witnesses one on Christ's right and one on His left.

Mount Zion is on the earth.

2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.
3 God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge.