11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" So Jesus said to him, "It is as you say."
The pre-tribulational rapture
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11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" So Jesus said to him, "It is as you say."
Arnie Manitoba asked Son of Man if he was one of the two witnesses...
I can assure you,,, he is not. And I did not mean that to be mean.
Oliver... have you not read of the beheadings for those who would not take the beast's mark? Not all Christians go in the Rapture..... Understand this... there will be 144,000 Jews sealed on their foreheads .. they will not go in the rapture yet though they are Jews they certainly are Christians! The two witnesses are Christians and they will not go in the rapture. There will also be Christians that weather the storm of tribulations that did not go in the rapture.... Now you stated all Christians go in the rapture.. I certainly showed there are exceptions.
I can assure you,,, he is not. And I did not mean that to be mean.
Oliver... have you not read of the beheadings for those who would not take the beast's mark? Not all Christians go in the Rapture..... Understand this... there will be 144,000 Jews sealed on their foreheads .. they will not go in the rapture yet though they are Jews they certainly are Christians! The two witnesses are Christians and they will not go in the rapture. There will also be Christians that weather the storm of tribulations that did not go in the rapture.... Now you stated all Christians go in the rapture.. I certainly showed there are exceptions.
And now they want to know how? How can you assure "Them"? You want their blood guilt? Can you even handle your own?
I can asure them...and I have a secret, but first... Have you not read my other posts concerning the 2 witnesses... read them, and undersrtand. Do you kno how to test a prophet? Do you know how to test one of the two witnesses before thier 1.260 days? Does anyonne here know how? I mean besides me? See, I know how to test the two witnesses before the time of their 1.260 days, but I am not telling all of the ways... for reasons that I keep to myself and would be of no benefit for you.
Why is it not a good idea for a false prophet to claim to be one of the 2 witnesses? Trying to be positioned as a prophet can be beneficil for both poiwer and money. But trying to be falsely positioned as one of the two witnesses has no avantage of either power or money... for if either is sought then that person is realized as a false prophet. Certainly, claiming to be one of the two witnesses means one strips them self of any possible money or position.. making that false claim a demerit. The true witnesses will not desire either money or position and nearly everywhere or everywhwere they speak they wil be denied.
Do you know the reward for accepting a prophet as a prophet? Do you know the demerit of acceepting a non-prophet as a prophet? If a prophet is accepted as a prophet then proven wrong - a false prophet... what is the demerit? If a prophet is accepted as a prophet and is proven right.. what is the reward? If a false prophet is accepted and though proven wrong is yet followed then the demerit can be hell.
Their blood guilt...??? sorry no gulit. My guilt? -- Paid in full by Jesus. My guilt by saying you are not one of the 2 witnesses? there is no guilt. and I did not mean that to be mean.
Why is it not a good idea for a false prophet to claim to be one of the 2 witnesses? Trying to be positioned as a prophet can be beneficil for both poiwer and money. But trying to be falsely positioned as one of the two witnesses has no avantage of either power or money... for if either is sought then that person is realized as a false prophet. Certainly, claiming to be one of the two witnesses means one strips them self of any possible money or position.. making that false claim a demerit. The true witnesses will not desire either money or position and nearly everywhere or everywhwere they speak they wil be denied.
Do you know the reward for accepting a prophet as a prophet? Do you know the demerit of acceepting a non-prophet as a prophet? If a prophet is accepted as a prophet then proven wrong - a false prophet... what is the demerit? If a prophet is accepted as a prophet and is proven right.. what is the reward? If a false prophet is accepted and though proven wrong is yet followed then the demerit can be hell.
Their blood guilt...??? sorry no gulit. My guilt? -- Paid in full by Jesus. My guilt by saying you are not one of the 2 witnesses? there is no guilt. and I did not mean that to be mean.
If you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin. Remember the scripture? The true way to know whether a prophet or anyone claiming to belong to the Lord God Almighty is real is by the Power of the Spirit being displayed by them. God bears witness of His own. The babelon mouth and cleverly devised words of deceivers and those who have secrets are all over the globe. But since I am not going to bring fire down on anyone for you or be tested by you in any way. You will just have to wait and see that What I told you is the truth. But in the mean time ask God for His Spirit and start practicing faith that moves mountains.. Because you will need it for yourself and all of your loved ones.
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What I mean is.. surely they are alive today, they are somewhere and certainly someone else knows them... and so... I do. I have known them for a long time now. That does not mean I think highly of myself, just because I know. Nope Would I think less of someone denying them? sure, of course... as I see no reason to deny them simply for denying's sake. Could they be false witnesses? nope! Has God showed me who they are? Yup. Am I willing to reveal this information now? nope. Am I required to? nope. Is there a demerit for not revealing this information? nope. Would I like to reveal this information now? ABSOLUTELY
What would be the requirement for me to reveal this information? Simple, be able to test them properly. God Bless!
I have committed no sin by these words...
What would be the requirement for me to reveal this information? Simple, be able to test them properly. God Bless!
I have committed no sin by these words...
The pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine and a simple reading of the Bible would show it. This whole thread is nauseating. I would make an attempt at refuting the claims made in the OP, but I simply don't have the time nor the energy. I would encourage everyone to set your pet doctrines aside and actually read the Word to seek out the truth.
If you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin. Remember the scripture? The true way to know whether a prophet or anyone claiming to belong to the Lord God Almighty is real is by the Power of the Spirit being displayed by them. God bears witness of His own. The babelon mouth and cleverly devised words of deceivers and those who have secrets are all over the globe. But since I am not going to bring fire down on anyone for you or be tested by you in any way. You will just have to wait and see that What I told you is the truth. But in the mean time ask God for His Spirit and start practicing faith that moves mountains.. Because you will need it for yourself and all of your loved ones.
The scripture states there is no greater sacrifice for sin, which is true, but-
The scripture states there is no greater sacrifice for sin, which is true, but-
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Excellent advice TWC
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the "Spirit of grace?"
My quotes.
Interesting. Do you think that refers to the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? As far as I'm aware that's the only unforgivable sin. I put quotes around it.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the "Spirit of grace?"
My quotes.
Interesting. Do you think that refers to the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? As far as I'm aware that's the only unforgivable sin. I put quotes around it.
Hi Rocky, Your words:"It simply does not hurt to believe in a pre-trib rapture... Especially as the scripture has said"
If one's only concern is spiritual then I agree we should be "spiritually" ready as if Christ could come at any moment, however, if one doesn't prepare physically, financially, and mentally to stay, then yes it can hurt very much and perhaps even cost you or a loved ones life for failing to adequately prepare when Christ has given us so much "advanced" warning.
If one's only concern is spiritual then I agree we should be "spiritually" ready as if Christ could come at any moment, however, if one doesn't prepare physically, financially, and mentally to stay, then yes it can hurt very much and perhaps even cost you or a loved ones life for failing to adequately prepare when Christ has given us so much "advanced" warning.
-- Exactly correct. I know a number of people who are absolutely convinced that it will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but still have life insurance, pay into their 401K, plan for their retirement, have filled out wills, etc.
Some because they know it is their responsibility, and some because - even though they believe it - they have no idea how far into the future the event would be and are simply being prudent.
As far as the certainty some have here that the Pre-Trib Rapture, I moved from the certain to undecided column years ago.
When I first became a Christian I was taught it was real, and was shown several scriptures that would indicate it was true.
I then rejected it completely, but have again moved into the 'undecided' column.
Why?
There are great lovers of Christ who have dedicated their lives to him who differ on this.
They have spent years researching this - not trying to prove their 'truth' but to find out what the actual truth is - and these incredible, scholarly people have often come down on different sides.
I have a firm foundation in my belief in Jesus Christ. I am not, as James put it, "driven and tossed about" by the sea.
But I am not obviously not a Biblical scholar. And from what I hear coming from people on this thread, I am willing to bet that they aren't either.
When people who have spend DECADES sincerely and openly studying and living the Word, and loving God with their whole hearts still disagree on this topic, the arrogant replies of some here - pro or con - should not be considered the final word.
Have your opinion. Live your opinion. But don't slander the opinion of those that disagree with you.
There are those that have gone before us - likely having a deeper relationship with God than we have - and who have sought the truth with total openness and honesty who still disagree.
.
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It simply does not hurt to believe in a pre-trib rapture... Especially as the scripture has said...
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
The eagles (angels) are those who are going to retrieve your carcass from the earth when the trumpet sounds. And... Taking the scripture in context, this will happen in ordinary days, like those of Lot and Noah.
Jesus warns of a great event that will happen like in the times of Noah and Lot...
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[sup] [/sup]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[sup] [/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24: 36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Remember Lot's wife.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Luke 17:28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17: 34,35,36,37
And they said where Lord? - What prompted the disciples to say this were the previous references of the people being taken.
Where the body is... Wherever the people that were taken were at the time.
The Eagles... The angels... Who do you think is going to fetch your worthless hide? Jesus Christ also mentions this in another scripture...
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
Who are 'they?' They are the angels referred to in Luke 17:37
In the words of John MacArthur... A rapture must take place for we saints to return on this earth with the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise... In MacArthur's words, it would be a quick trip to rise with him then return with him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzsBC2yiqG8
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
The eagles (angels) are those who are going to retrieve your carcass from the earth when the trumpet sounds. And... Taking the scripture in context, this will happen in ordinary days, like those of Lot and Noah.
Jesus warns of a great event that will happen like in the times of Noah and Lot...
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[sup] [/sup]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[sup] [/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24: 36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Remember Lot's wife.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Luke 17:28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17: 34,35,36,37
And they said where Lord? - What prompted the disciples to say this were the previous references of the people being taken.
Where the body is... Wherever the people that were taken were at the time.
The Eagles... The angels... Who do you think is going to fetch your worthless hide? Jesus Christ also mentions this in another scripture...
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
Who are 'they?' They are the angels referred to in Luke 17:37
In the words of John MacArthur... A rapture must take place for we saints to return on this earth with the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise... In MacArthur's words, it would be a quick trip to rise with him then return with him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzsBC2yiqG8
Eagles = angels?
As far as I know there is exactly one place in the bible where an eagle might be equated with an angel: Rev 8:13
There is no biblical justification for making that equation in Matt 24 or Luke 17.
As far as I know there is exactly one place in the bible where an eagle might be equated with an angel: Rev 8:13
There is no biblical justification for making that equation in Matt 24 or Luke 17.
Hi Rocky, I don't think the scriptures are convincing enough to be portraying a pre-trib rapture or that the eagles are angels. If Christ wanted us to believe they were angels then He would have said so, instead of using a description for "carrion-eaters". If anything this might portray the gathering of the "tares" for judgment and the eagles feasting on their dead bodies in correlation with Rev. 19:17-18.
TWC said
This is an example of the fallacy called elephant hurling.
+++
That contradicts what Jesus says in John 14, as explained in the original post. He says he is going to prepare a place; he is not doing so on earth, therefore it is in heaven. He says he is coming back to take his disciples to that place. Therefore to teach that we are to pop up to meet him in the air and then come back down does not match what Jesus says. The pretribulational rapture does match it.
+++
When the rapture happens we are supposed to be found doing what we ought to be doing any way. 2 Thess teaches that if someone will not work - because he is waiting for the rapture - he should not eat either. We know what is going to happen; we do not know when it is going to happen, and anyone who tries to set a date is being disobedient. So if you are supposed to have insurance, savings, education and so on, the imminence of the rapture makes no difference to that.
On the other hand, its imminence means that the task of evangelism is urgent!
What that says to me is that you do not have the ability, because this is indeed what the bible teaches.
This is an example of the fallacy called elephant hurling.
+++
That contradicts what Jesus says in John 14, as explained in the original post. He says he is going to prepare a place; he is not doing so on earth, therefore it is in heaven. He says he is coming back to take his disciples to that place. Therefore to teach that we are to pop up to meet him in the air and then come back down does not match what Jesus says. The pretribulational rapture does match it.
+++
When the rapture happens we are supposed to be found doing what we ought to be doing any way. 2 Thess teaches that if someone will not work - because he is waiting for the rapture - he should not eat either. We know what is going to happen; we do not know when it is going to happen, and anyone who tries to set a date is being disobedient. So if you are supposed to have insurance, savings, education and so on, the imminence of the rapture makes no difference to that.
On the other hand, its imminence means that the task of evangelism is urgent!
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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let see....
1. The great falling away.... Sounds like our time!
2. The appearing of the Anti-Christ - Not yet! But who knows when he will come onto the scene?
3. Rapture time - Or in Paul's lingo... The day of the Lord.
Let see....
1. The great falling away.... Sounds like our time!
2. The appearing of the Anti-Christ - Not yet! But who knows when he will come onto the scene?
3. Rapture time - Or in Paul's lingo... The day of the Lord.
But "falling away" is, for two reasons, a poor translation. Until the KJV this was translated "departure", and it clearly means the rapture.
If you think this time shows a clear falling away, what about the Middle Ages, when there was far less biblical knowledge than now and the very doctrines of justification by faith and so on were obscured?
The Day of the Lord, is also known variously as the Day of Christ, the Day of Wrath, That Day, the Last Day. Depending on the context, it may cover as much as the entire time from the beginning of the last seven years up until the final judgement from the great white throne.
As I explained in the original post, Paul's purpose in writing 2 Thessalonians was to reassure people who were being told that the Day of the Lord had already come. Obviously they did not think that Jesus had already returned; they are thinking that the persecution they are undergoing may be part of the wrath of God and it is evident that Paul had previously taught them about the removal of the church. If they thought that he had taught that it would come just at Christ's return, why should they be writing to him or he be trying to reassure them about this?
He is re-emphasising to them that the rapture is the first thing that is due to happen, and therefore they have no need to be concerned that they have missed it or that Paul had got his teaching wrong.
If you think this time shows a clear falling away, what about the Middle Ages, when there was far less biblical knowledge than now and the very doctrines of justification by faith and so on were obscured?
The Day of the Lord, is also known variously as the Day of Christ, the Day of Wrath, That Day, the Last Day. Depending on the context, it may cover as much as the entire time from the beginning of the last seven years up until the final judgement from the great white throne.
As I explained in the original post, Paul's purpose in writing 2 Thessalonians was to reassure people who were being told that the Day of the Lord had already come. Obviously they did not think that Jesus had already returned; they are thinking that the persecution they are undergoing may be part of the wrath of God and it is evident that Paul had previously taught them about the removal of the church. If they thought that he had taught that it would come just at Christ's return, why should they be writing to him or he be trying to reassure them about this?
He is re-emphasising to them that the rapture is the first thing that is due to happen, and therefore they have no need to be concerned that they have missed it or that Paul had got his teaching wrong.
Hi Oliver, Your words:"But "falling away" is, for two reasons, a poor translation. Until the KJV this was translated "departure", and it clearly means the rapture."
You would have to prove that beyond a shadow of doubt to me. The early church fathers had what could be called a "post-persecution" belief regarding the time of the rapture. In many of their writings, they expected to be here at the same time as the a/c.
Your words: "If you think this time shows a clear falling away, what about the Middle Ages, when there was far less biblical knowledge than now and the very doctrines of justification by faith and so on were obscured."
One can't "fall away" from what one isn't aware of. The apostacy is a "falling away" of sincere christians from belief to unbelief. What could cause this? There are several possibilities...the visitation of aliens (demons in another form), the "supposed" discovery of Christ's body (with DNA proof), belief in a rescue that doesn't happen and ending in severe suffering for believers who weren't expecting to suffer. Whatever the cause this is a winnowing of the body of Christ, a trial by fire, so to speak and those that fail will be because the believed the "delusion" (lie)over the truth.
Hi Foreigner, Your words: "but still have life insurance, pay into their 401K, plan for their retirement, have filled out wills, etc."
This is life as normal. The preparation I'm speaking of is when a SHTF event occurs. Long time emergency preparedness. We do what we can and leave the rest to God, but if we fail to prepare don't expect Him to bail you out. He warned us repeatedly in scripture.
You would have to prove that beyond a shadow of doubt to me. The early church fathers had what could be called a "post-persecution" belief regarding the time of the rapture. In many of their writings, they expected to be here at the same time as the a/c.
Your words: "If you think this time shows a clear falling away, what about the Middle Ages, when there was far less biblical knowledge than now and the very doctrines of justification by faith and so on were obscured."
One can't "fall away" from what one isn't aware of. The apostacy is a "falling away" of sincere christians from belief to unbelief. What could cause this? There are several possibilities...the visitation of aliens (demons in another form), the "supposed" discovery of Christ's body (with DNA proof), belief in a rescue that doesn't happen and ending in severe suffering for believers who weren't expecting to suffer. Whatever the cause this is a winnowing of the body of Christ, a trial by fire, so to speak and those that fail will be because the believed the "delusion" (lie)over the truth.
Hi Foreigner, Your words: "but still have life insurance, pay into their 401K, plan for their retirement, have filled out wills, etc."
This is life as normal. The preparation I'm speaking of is when a SHTF event occurs. Long time emergency preparedness. We do what we can and leave the rest to God, but if we fail to prepare don't expect Him to bail you out. He warned us repeatedly in scripture.
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