The pre-tribulational rapture

[tgwprophet]

OH BOY! Churches and prophecy theologians have taught wrongful ideas for way too long.
Here is a piece of wisdom that needs applied....
Prepare for the worst - Hope for the best!
This wisdom does not fill many pews, but then, God wants us to look beyond the pews.
When this rapture takes place... Well.. first of all, the first half of tribulations is not a time of wrath, but bounty so there is at that time no " need " of rapture. When the second half of Tribulations begins is when the Mark of the Beast is made manditory by the image of the beast with the mortal wound.

Consider this...Now... then fo whom is the rapture needed? Certainly for not those that know but for those who know not... meaning the elderly too taken in years to fight the beast's mark, children - of all nationalities? even from homes of different beliefs than Christian? . The crippled too weak to deny the Beast's mark. The sick, both mentally and physically, those in a coma. Prophecy tells us of those Christians being beheaded for not taking the Mark of the Beast... These are the STRONG... the ones filling the pews because they are taught the rapture takes them, but though it did not take them, they remain strong in Christ. Prophecy also tells us of those who are angered and curse God... who are they? Are they people that did not believe and therefore have no reason to curse a god they think does not exist?. Who are those that are persecuted for not taking the mark of the beast? --- Some or many of them will be be-headed, some will escape beheading and yet others may escape persecution because they came ....... " prepared " !!!

And what of those that came prepared they can HELP other believers weather Tribulations... AND they can help " fence walkers " commit to Christ!!!

There is a vast amount of open land available that no country owns. Unfortunately that land is under many fathoms of sea water. However, in that water is sea life called fish that can sustain one and many. Unfortunately there, even to this day, are pirates in those seas, but proper preparation and correct understandingt can assist. Oh, this is just one reason why the two witnesses will not turn the seas to blood for the time of their power.

There are other places to difficult and vast that people with preparation can sustain themselves and assist others. but that too requires something the chrches have neglected teaching... preparation! Ok... say I am worng... and you are taken in the rapture and because of that you have left behind amass of camping equipment...( that thiose left behind can use) are you really going to be mad at me? If I am right, but you remain firm that you go in the rapture and you do not... and because you believed your minister you are left unprepared and without a tent are you going to be mad at me?

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. and God Bless You, amen!

 

[oliver]

"fo whom is the rapture needed?"

That isn't the point. The question is, whom does Paul say will be taken. The answer is those who have died in Christ and "we who are alive". This is Jesus coming for his bride.

 

[tgwprophet]

Ahhh, but it is the point. For many left behind will not understand why they were not taken, this however, explains why not. Unless you believe the rapture takes ALL Christians and the be-heading of Christians does not happen. Are you a pre, mid or post rapture believer? You have associated those tasken as the Bride of Christ... I do not see that as more than speculation. Scripture references to this connection are too vague for absolute. Soon, if I ask, I can understand absolute, just not yet.

The reason I wrote this was to inform people that being prepared NOT to go in a rapture is vital. And for all those that take heed and do not go... this information will have been paramount. For all those hat do not go in the rapture and do not prepare for remaining here, there is a path to persecution or a gilotine. I hope you now understand my point Oliver, God Bless.


Son of Man claims to know who are all the 24 elders or just some of them? How do you justify this information without speculation?

As for the 144,000... they are of the 12 tribes.. that is scipttural. They will have a seal of God on their foreheads. They will not be Jehovah Witnesses, sorry if I bursted a bubble SoM.

AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM OLIVER!

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I have a similar view to the Son of Man. I don't believe Christian's are meant to experience the wrath of God per say. However, I believe martyrdom is part of what many Christians will experience in the end times, and that is what the "dead in Christ" is referring to. The beheading of Christians can be seen in Deuteronomy 21:1-9 as Terry proposes. I don't believe all Christians will be martyred but in doing so will be missing out on one of the greatest events in all of history concerning symbolism from Old Testament scripture. The "catching up" part of the rapture however appears to be all inclusive of Christians which is why I'm a Mid Trib, pre wrath rapture guy. Yup.

 

[oliver]

Yes, Terry, the rapture takes all Christians.


1 Cor 15:51-52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

martinlawrencescott, Paul is informing the Thessalonians about what will happen to those of them who have already died. This is the definition of "the dead in Christ"; it simply means those who belong to the Lord but have died before the church is removed. It is quite clear that what Paul tells the Corinthians and what he tells the Thessalonians are descriptions of the same event. In both cases we see the resurrection of the dead and this is immediately followed by the transformation into resurrection bodies of those who remain alive at the time. No one who belongs to the true church of Jesus Christ can be excluded from this. Its purpose is that we should all be with the Lordm and death is not able to get in the way.

Those who suffer and maybe are beheaded during the tribulation are people who are converted afterwards, perhaps as a direct result of seeing Christian friends or family removed. The distinction between them and the church is that the church is the body of Christ and the bride that he is preparing for himself; its members are also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but I think that this is not the case for those converted after the church is removed.

Since I could indeed be wrong about this (though of course I do not think I am) I agree that we should be ready for whatever comes and take care to depend on the Lord in all things. But if anyone thinks that the doctrine means that they will never suffer, they simply do not understand it. The tribulation resulting from the hostility of men to Jesus and to his people can only increase. That was the position of the Thessalonian church that Paul addressed in his second letter.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

martinlawrencescott, Paul is informing the Thessalonians about what will happen to those of them who have already died. This is the definition of "the dead in Christ"; it simply means those who belong to the Lord but have died before the church is removed. It is quite clear that what Paul tells the Corinthians and what he tells the Thessalonians are descriptions of the same event. In both cases we see the resurrection of the dead and this is immediately followed by the transformation into resurrection bodies of those who remain alive at the time. No one who belongs to the true church of Jesus Christ can be excluded from this. Its purpose is that we should all be with the Lordm and death is not able to get in the way.

I guess where you think I'm wrong is that I consider martyrdom as part of the tribulation. I don't. I believe it's strictly before and both those who are and who aren't martyred will be caught up. Because otherwise we are agreeing completely. I'm just explaining the martyrdom of the dead in Christ vs. the living in Christ at the time of the catching up part of the rapture. and by tribulation I mean the 2nd 1/2.

 

[oliver]

Yes, but the dead in Christ is everyone of the church who will have died, whether by martyrdom or not, from Stephen right up to the last moment before the rapture.

If you agree with that then I misunderstood you before.

 

[rockytopva]

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17:37

The eagles (angels) are those who are going to retrieve your carcass from the earth when the trumpet sounds. And... Taking the scripture in context, this will happen in ordinary days, like those of Lot and Noah.

Jesus warns of a great event that will happen like in the times of Noah and Lot...

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[sup] [/sup]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[sup] [/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24: 36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Remember Lot's wife.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Luke 17:28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37

 

[us2are1]

"fo whom is the rapture needed?"

That isn't the point. The question is, whom does Paul say will be taken. The answer is those who have died in Christ and "we who are alive". This is Jesus coming for his bride.

There is no bride here. Where do you see a worthy bride?

38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Yes, but the dead in Christ is everyone of the church who will have died, whether by martyrdom or not, from Stephen right up to the last moment before the rapture.

If you agree with that then I misunderstood you before.

The rapture theory is for those who love sin to go and kick God off His throne. It is all imaginary. It is not going to happen. Period.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Rocky, Your words:"The eagles (angels) are those who are going to retrieve your carcass from the earth when the trumpet sounds. And... Taking the scripture in context, this will happen in ordinary days, like those of Lot and Noah."

I don't believe "angels" are what this verse is talking about. Can you add further scriptural insight as to why you believe they are angels?

 

[us2are1]

11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," says the Lord.

Hi Rocky, Your words:"The eagles (angels) are those who are going to retrieve your carcass from the earth when the trumpet sounds. And... Taking the scripture in context, this will happen in ordinary days, like those of Lot and Noah."

I don't believe "angels" are what this verse is talking about. Can you add further scriptural insight as to why you believe they are angels?

Eagles kill their food. This scripture is talking about people hunting and killing people for food. It begins to happen after the two witnesses shut up the heavens and turn all the water on earth to blood. This abomination of desolation will be complete and in full swing 1295 days after the two witnesses begin their ministry. When Christ comes at the 1335th Day everyone who participated in eating people will be sealed for destruction and they will have fire rained down on their heads by Christ's Saints who will go up into the air of earth to meet Him at his return.

2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

14 ---------- "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

The great tribulation will have already killed approximately four billion people by the time the abomination of desolation is fully set up.

9 Then I said, "I will not feed you. Let what is dying die, and what is perishing perish. Let those that are left eat each other's flesh."

10 The hands of the compassionate women Have cooked their own children; They became food for them In the destruction of the daughter of my people.

9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair." '

 

[oliver]

SoM, You quote "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints".

Notice how they come with the Lord. They are already with him, because the church has been removed before he comes back to earth.

If the church is not caught up until he returns to earth, and the resurrection has not happened either, because that happens a moment before the living believers are caught up, this would leave no one to come with the Lord. Instead, however, we see him in Rev 19 with the armies of heaven - here, ten thousands of his saints - coming behind him.

 

[us2are1]

SoM, You quote "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints".

Notice how they come with the Lord. They are already with him, because the church has been removed before he comes back to earth.

If the church is not caught up until he returns to earth, and the resurrection has not happened either, because that happens a moment before the living believers are caught up, this would leave no one to come with the Lord. Instead, however, we see him in Rev 19 with the armies of heaven - here, ten thousands of his saints - coming behind him.

It happens in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment. Those who are worthy to obtain the Resurrection from the dead already know what is going to happen. They don't need any time to be schooled. They are of the Spirit of God and are in Him now.

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[oliver]

I agree that the first half of the last 7 years will already have killed at least half the world's population. But the verses you quote about cannibalism were fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzar. I don't think one can reuse prophecies for later events. That is why the abomination is prophesied twice in Daniel, because it has two fulfilments. The eagles are generally held to be gathering to feed on the dead body.

It also needs to be noticed that Luke uses the word that may indicate a living body, whereas Matthew uses the word for a corpse. Luke's recording of this saying is separated from the Olivet discourse and comes in a passage that may well be a warning to be ready for the rapture, that is to be doing the work of Christ and not idling about. The Greek words used for "taken" and "left" indicate that it is desirable to be taken.

Notice too that in Luke we are talking about an event that occurs all around the world at the same time, because it speaks of men sleeping (at night), women grinding corn (early morning) and men working in the fields (full day). Luke, through the Holy Spirit, is aware of time zones!

 

[us2are1]

Christ doesn't come until the 1335th day. That is when the dead in Christ rise and the catching up into the air of earth happens. There was never a seven year tribulation. The first half of Daniels seventieth week was spent by Christs ministry.

In the midst of the week Messiah was cut off.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Christ confirms His covenant for one week. When His two witnesses takeover the second half of the week they remove Gods daily sacrifice to man. By shutting up the heavens so that no rain falls on the face of the earth and turning the waters of earth to blood for 1265 days. Everyones faith will be tested even though that is not the reason. The reason is because it is time to shut down the world and usher in the Kingdom of God. So everyone get your faith ready. You will need to bring water out of the face of the rock. You will need to make the oil and flour last 1260 days. You will need the faith to bring manna down out of the sky or feed five thousand with two loaves. Get ready while we are still in the green wood. You may not have time to build faith in the dry running for your life.







.

 

[oliver]

The 1335th day from when?

Sir Robert Anderson showed how the 69th week ended to the very day on the day when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey, fulfilling Zechariah 9 and thus for the first time explicitly claiming the title of King Messiah. He showed that the Holy Spirit is using years of 360 days in 12 30-day months (as in Genesis 7 and 8). Claiming that Jesus was crucified half-way through the 70th week violates the language of Daniel 9 and leaves the second 3.5 years hanging awkwardly with no apparent purpose. It is also only a very approximate fit from any of the decrees relating to Jerusalem up to the baptism of Jesus, at which in any case Jesus did not yet claim the title of King Messiah.

In Dan 9, both the crucifixion and the destruction of city and temple happen between the 69th and 70th week. And Revelation also has two periods of 1260 days or 42 months, which added together make the full 7 years. The period that Jesus calls the Great Tribulation and the OT calls the time of Jacob's trouble occurs in the second 3.5 year period; the judgements of the first 6 seals appear to happen during the first period. Daniel 12 speaks of the second period.

The 1290 and 1335 days mentioned in Daniel 12 are certainly mysterious. In view of Daniel's audience they must have something to do with Israel. 1260 days is the period from the abomination of desolation until the return of Christ to earth and his utter defeat of the beast and false prophet. 30 days after that begins some event that ends 45 days later (1335 days from the abomination of desolation) and those who come to the end of those 45 days are blessed. I suggest that this is the judgement of individual Israelites and the assignment too them of rewards or otherwise. We know there is a judgement seat of Christ for the church, and it seems reasonable that there should also be one for Israel. It may even be that both happen at the same time.

 

[us2are1]

It is in post #51 All of the timing of the end time starts with the beginning of the two witnesses ministry. When the news medias are baffled by no weather or clouds anywhere on earth you will know it has begun.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Another indication that the church is absent can be determined by reading Revelation 9. Everybody on earth has been accounted for and the church is not there.

---The 144,000 have already been sealed
---1/3 of mankind is killed (vs 15)
---remaining 2/3 of mankind ..... they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.[sup] [/sup]Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. (vs 20)

All of mankind has been accounted for. No church here. period.

 

[us2are1]

if you are lucky enough to be in the Church that the two witnesses go to first you will know what has happened. otherwise it is going to take a little while for the word to get out. the entire world will be crippled quickly.

Most of the supplies in the entire world will be consumed and gone within nine months.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

if you are lucky enough to be in the Church that the two witnesses go to first you will know what has happened. otherwise it is going to take a little while for the word to get out. the entire world will be crippled quickly.

Most of the supplies in the entire world will be consumed and gone within nine months.

Are you one of the two witnesses ?