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The Problem with Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Trekson, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    If you’ll notice in Rev. 1:4, it is addressed to the seven churches in the province of Asia. Not synagogues, not temples but churches. The whole book is written to us and for us, the church, the Body of Christ. This brings us to the topic of Dispensationalism. This is the belief that Israel and the church are eternally separate and God will always deal with each group separately.

    It is important when studying Bible Prophecy to begin with a correct understanding of God’s dealings with humanity. It is my opinion that dispensationalism, as it is commonly understood today, distorts the historical picture which leads some scholars to make false conclusions based on an inaccurate understanding of God’s plan. Now I am not saying that I have a better understanding than anyone else or that God has let me in on the secrets of the universe. I just look at things differently than dispensational pre-tribulation rapturists.

    I was raised Pentecostal and learned and believed in those theories since childhood. Dispensationalists see God pursuing two goals throughout history. An earthly kingdom for the Jews and a heavenly kingdom for the church. Membership in Israel is by natural birth while one enters the Church by supernatural birth. They believe that in the O.T., God promised the Jews an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David and that when Christ came, He offered that prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When they rejected Him and His earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed and a "mystery form" of the kingdom was established, the "church". The church according to dispensational doctrine was unforeseen in the O.T. and constitutes an interruption but not a discontinuation of God’s plan for Israel.

    They believe that in the future, the separation between the "church" and the "Jews" will be re-established and this separation will continue for all eternity. They believe this interruption, aka, the "church age" will end at the rapture when Christ takes away all living and dead believers (but not the O.T. saints) to heaven to celebrate the "Marriage Feast of the Lamb" for seven years. God’s program for the Jews will then resume with the Anti-Christ, seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and a 144,000 Jewish preachers spreading the gospel (calling the 144,000 preachers is strictly a pre-trib doctrine. No where in scripture does it say they do anything except get sealed for protection. What they fail to realize is they are acknowledging that God will not leave the earth w/o a witness, but that witness will be the still here church) and concluding with Armageddon. Then the Second Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire Jewish population, the resurrection of the tribulation and old testament saints and of course the millennium and all that goes with it.

    (beginning of material from an unknown source)
    Modern dispensationalism varies from older pre-millenialism in several ways. Older pre-millennialism taught:
    1. The church was foreseen in the Old Testament.
    2. The majority of Old Testament prophecy foretold the coming of Christ to die for our sins followed by a second coming to reclaim His earthly kingdom.
    3. The present age of grace was designed by God and predicted in the Old Testament.
    4. That one could divide the biblical timeline any way they chose as long as they allowed for a millennial era after His second coming.
    5. That specific signs must precede His second Coming.
    6. There are two resurrections, the righteous before the Millennium and the unrighteous after the Millennium prior to the Great White Throne Judgment.
     
    Modern Dispensationalism teaches the only way to divide biblical time is in seven dispensations. The church era is the sixth dispensation and the last one will be the millennial age after the second coming. It is from this division of time that Dispensationalism gets its name. They also teach that no signs precede the "rapture-stage" of the Second Coming, which according to their theology may occur at any moment. However, they state that there are signs that precede the "revelation-stage" of His second coming. They believe that the first stage is undated and not announced but the second stage is dated and announced.

    Dispensationalism has introduced a third resurrection. The so-called tribulation saints after Armageddon. It has taken a far more rigid standpoint and several new approaches to prophetic interpretation that the church hadn’t heard of until just a couple of centuries ago.

    In contrast, Christian theology has always seen the unity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment.

    If the church is found fulfilling any of “Israel's” promises as contained in the new testament or anywhere else in scripture, then modern dispensational theology is refuted. (The following scripture quotes are all from the NKJV)
    A promise to Israel
    Hosea 1:10 -"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'
    Fulfilled by the church
    Romans 9:22-26 - “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
    A promise to Israel
    Hosea 2:23 - Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!'" -
    Fulfilled by the church
    1 Peter 2:9-10 -“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy
    A promise to Israel -
    Amos 9:11 - "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old;
    Fulfilled by the church
    Acts 15:14-18 - "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works
    In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.
    Spoken of Israel
    Joel 2:28-32 - "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls

    Fulfilled in the church -
    Acts 2:1,16-21 - “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved
    Spoken of Israel
    Exodus 19:6 - 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.

    Fulfilled in the church
    1 Peter 2:9 - “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

    Spoken of Israel
    Ezekiel 37:27 - "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -
    Fulfilled in the church
    2 Cor 6:16 - “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."

    Spoken of Israel
    Lev 19:2 - "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.”
    Fulfilled in the church
    1 Peter 1:15-16 - “…but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

    Spoken of Israel
    Jer. 31:31 - "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah .”

    Fulfilled in the church
    Luke 22:20- “Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”

    Dispensationalists, determined to cling to their false distinction between Israel and the church are forced to abandon the new testament's application to the church. Albertus Pieters, however, representing non-dispensational commentators in general, explains:

    "This is entirely correct [that Israel is meant in Jeremiah 31], and it is to the house of Israel that the fulfillment came. The objection arises from a failure to perceive that the Christian church in its origin was an Israelite body, fully qualified to claim the promises made to Israel.... The Christian church, once having been established, had many Gentiles come into it, but that did not make it a "church from among the Gentiles", any more than the naturalization of many Italians in our country makes this a nation from among the Italians.... they were all Israelite members of the Old Covenant people of God, to whom the promise had been made. Strictly in line with the promise and with the prevailing principle of the covenant history, to them, the believing remnant, the promise of the New Covenant was fulfilled. That promise was, "To the House of Israel and the House of Judah," and to the designated parties the fulfillment came; to all who were, in the sight of God and according to a just interpretation of history, still worthy of the name: "Israel and Judah.".... In all this, are we spiritualizing the prophecy as some allege? Not at all. We are stating a historical fact, clearly contained in the sacred records, that in or about the spring of the year 30 A.D., the mass of those who then called themselves Israelites ceased to be such for prophetic and covenant purpose, having forfeited their citizenship in the common-wealth of Israel by refusing to accept the Messiah, and that after this event all the privileges of the Abrahamic Covenant and all the promises of God belonged to the believing remnant, and to them only; which remnant was therefore and thereafter the true Israel and Judah, and the Seed of Abraham, the Christian church. Thus the promise was fulfilled strictly and definitely to the designated parties." (end of quote)
    (end of material from an unknown source)

    I think this adequately shows that dispensationalism stands on shaky ground. The pre-trib rapture belief stands on the two legs of dispensationalism and imminence. If one or both can be shown as an inadequate understanding of scripture than the honest christian searching for a truthful understanding of bible prophecy must reconsider their stance in the face of all the evidence that is shown to be contrary to their understanding.

    I have one final question for all the dispensationalists to consider. If the O.T. is a Jewish testament with Jewish prophecies and no gentile believers in sight, What would you call all those who had faith in God prior to Abraham? There was no Jewish nation, so they must have been Gentiles. In fact, Abraham, the Father of the Jewish nation was not Jewish by blood, he was a gentile and only became a Jew spiritually because God chose him.

    I do not say I don't believe in any dispensation what-so-ever. What I am trying to point out is that pre-trib rapturists take dispensationalism to such an extreme ideal that it has taken on a meaning that was never intended or, in my opinion, taught in the bible. Let me give you a couple of scriptures that you are probably familiar of within the context of the "church" but I believe there is more to them than meets the eye, and from what is normally taught from the pulpit.
    Rom. 12:4-5 - For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. (NIV)

    I believe that there is a partial separation between national "earthly" Israel and the church. For example, if a Jew converts to christianity, he maintains his nationality as an Italian or a Japanese person would do, but spiritually they become members of the Body of Christ and their nationality has no special significance nor has it ever since Christ was crucified. I do not believe that a Jewish christian has any more or less standing before God than a gentile christian does. I believe all the old testament saints and all Jewish believers, dead or living prior to the rapture, will rule and reign with us in heaven and there is no special earthly kingdom for them. I believe this because of the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard found in Matt. 20: 1-16.
    "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went. 5 "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. 6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?' 7 "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' 8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.' 9 "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. 10 "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.' 13 "But he answered and said to one of them, ' Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' 16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last." (NIV)

    I equate the "early morning" to "prior to Noah". The "third hour" from Noah to Abraham. The "sixth hour" from Abraham to Christ. The "ninth hour" from Christ through the 70th week and the "eleventh hour" to those saved within the millennial era.
    All will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven equally, however the rewards we receive because of our obedience and faithful work performed for God will vary with each individual.

    What about the promises to Israel regarding the land of Israel? The Israelites are still God's chosen earthly people and He will set up His millennial kingdom in Israel with Jerusalem as His capitol. Those Israelites who survived Daniel’s 70th week and Armageddon, will retain their humanity entering the millennium (Rev. 12:14) along with the 144,000 and will be the base of the earthly kingdom for the Jews that was promised by God. God always fulfills His promises. But that is all it is; a promise fulfilled.

    The gentiles who retain their humanity and survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 will be envious of them because Jesus is reigning in their homeland but Jesus will rule both Israel and the gentile nations equally with an iron scepter. The Israelites and gentiles of this millennial era who commit themselves to Christ will become part of and not separate from the Body of Christ and when they die and are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment, after the millennium, they will join the church as part of His eternal body because God sees us as all one, united to Him through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. They are part of the Body of Christ but have a different function (Rom. 12:4-5) in their time than we do in ours.
     
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  2. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    In the main, the OP is on target.

    Most people are not aware that the pre-tribulation "rapture" theory is the marketing vehicle for the false doctrine of Dispensationalism.

    Most believers fail to see the Spiritual depth of terms such as "my people," or even the "chosen," or the "elect" of God; and this is largely because of a wholesale orientation to one primary, albeit false, worldview. But what if that view is indeed in error, and vast numbers of seemingly devout believers have inadvertently embraced the "other Jesus?" (Galatians 1:8)

    For example, to the disciples, Jesus very unambiguously stated that they were now the chosen people:

    "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you" (John 15:16).

    Even the Apostle Peter, clearly writing to the Christians, confirms that we are the "chosen" people:

    "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people…" (I Peter 2:9).

    The Apostle Paul, in writing to the Romans, clearly distinguishes between the physical Jews, and the believers in Christ, whom he refers to as the "elect" of God:

    "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it…." (Romans 11:7).

    This is only the tip of the textual iceberg, in that there are dozens of verses, plainly applied to the Christians, in which the LORD refers to us as "my people" – and yet whenever we see such a phrase, we irrationally assign that sacred role to the physical family of Jacob.

    Even worse, when God says he will call his people out of a group who were previously known as not my people, he also prophetically addresses those who were his people, but are now no more His people:

    "I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel: but I will utterly take them away….for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:6, 10).

    In spite of starkly unpleasant statements like the above, we've all been taught to cite verses supporting the supposed inability of God to change course concerning Israel, even as we routinely ignore verses which speak of such things. For instance, at the provocation in the wilderness, God says that Israel will know his breach of covenant:

    "After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise" (Numbers 14:34).

    God clearly tells us the covenant with the family of Israel was not broken by him, for they are the ones who broke the covenant:

    "…I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 31:32).

    Through the prophets Ezekiel and Amos, God even says there is an end to his patience with Israel's backsliding; but he will give them one final opportunity to be redeemed:

    "Alas, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. An end is come, the end is come…." (Ezekiel 7:2, 6).

    "The end is come upon my people of Israel: I will not again pass by them any more" (Amos 8:2).

    Ultimately, JESUS CHRIST himself pointedly tells the Jews their standing has been revoked, as God has determined to call those who were not his people, into the ranks of the chosen:

    "Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

    The truth is a hard saying, but it is still the truth. When God promised to "remember" Israel, thus fulfilling his promise that Israel's "seed" would be multiplied "as the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4), through those same prophets he said he would accomplish this by transforming Israel into a spiritual house:

    "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel…I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33).

    "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (I Peter 2:5).

    The truth is staring us right in the face, but most cannot see it, because blindness has happened to the last generation of Spiritual Israelites:

    "…blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in…This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Romans 11:25, Ephesians 4:17,18).

    This Spiritual blindness affects both Gentiles and Jews, who are not in Christ; but the Gentiles and the Jews who have joined into one Spiritual body in Christ, are the true Remnant of Israel, and they are that which the Apostle Paul calls the Israel of God:

    "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).

    Thus, the Christians are the Spiritual Jews, which relegates the physical Jews to the role of Spiritual Gentiles.

    "Isn't this just a minor issue over timing?"

    Rather, what would Satan stand to gain in foisting the pre-trib heresy?

    By refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), the dispensationalists are setting up the believers in Jesus for the final deception of the Antichrist. When he is installed in Jerusalem, he will be a professing Christian, and as the Jews accept his leadership, it will seem that "Israel" has now been converted to Christianity. At that point, the "Church" will transition from futurism to Post-Millennialism - i.e. it is now time to build God's kingdom on the earth - but that kingdom will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.

    I'll say this again. Dispensationalism is a completely false doctrine, and the attempt to place national Israel into a pre-eminent position in God's plan is Antichrist through and through. At the risk of redundancy, I'll restate this another way. The doctrine of national Israel as the "chosen people" is Satan's gambit designed to lure evangelical Christianity into an Israel-first millennialism that will ultimately enthrone the religious syncretism that will vault the Antichrist to power in Jerusalem.

    -- Brother James
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  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    There is a lot of confusion and ink used up over this issue of Church vs Israel.
    Way back in King Rehaboam's time, the Northern ten tribes, known as the House of Israel, separated from the Southern 2 tribes, the House of Judah.
    This was God's doing, 1 Kings 12:24 and the prophets always carefully maintain this separation - over 160 times in the Bible.
    Both Israel and Judah were eventually exiled from the holy Land because of their sins. But this was to be for a decreed time. Ezekiel 4:4-6
    Hosea 1:9 is quoted above, where the Lord says: You are not My people.... But verse 10-11 say that Israel and Judah WILL be redeemed and reunited and live back in all of the holy Land. They WILL once again become His people. Do not think that the present State of Israel is a fulfilment of that, They are only half of the Jews, living in only a small part of the Land and In no way do they live as God intends His people to live.
    These are the facts; the House of Israel still remains scattered among the nations, but God knows who they are. Amos 9:9 Soon, there will be the 'great shaking' of the world, Hebrews 12:26 and God will destroy His enemies and clear all of the holy Land. Then the great Call will go out to all the true Israelites, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in by faith, to gather and travel back to their heritage. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 66:15-24, Rev. 7:9
    Answer: The true Church, [all those accounted worthy] is the true Israel. [God's holy people, who will be a light to the nations]
    Great will be the Day!
     
  4. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    even a novice like me can see the promises to Israel you posted have nothing to do with those verses about the church.
    example: a new convenant with Israel. Everyone knows there is more than one biblical convenant.
    I'll just stop and wait for the experts to dismantle everything you posted while warning you that those who curse Israel will be cursed.
     
  5. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    Obviously, most folks still do not understand who or what "Israel" is -- even as the threats, and the posturing, and the "don't you dare speak out against Israel!" rhetoric continue.

    When Christ came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, he announced that Israel (physical Israel) must be born again.

    As Christ reconfigured the basic construct of Israel when He confirmed the covenant (Daniel 9:27) with Israel, those that were born again continued as spiritual Israel, and those that refused stayed in their tombs as physical Israel. Thus, the Catholic engineered theology known as "replacement" is an inaccurate label as Israel has not been replaced, Israel has been born again. Thus, the "church" has not replaced Israel. Indeed, the dispensational system that posits two groups, the church and Israel as separate groups that are both in the LORD's favor, is also in significant error. The Remnant of Israel are those that were formerly Jewish and formerly Gentile that have been grafted in to the single saved entity known as Israel. Thus, there is no place for a "Jewish remnant" i.e. the usual cult derived idea of the 144,000 as the Christians are themselves the remnant (Romans 11:5) and the Jewish and Gentile populations are lost.

    While some have sought to attach the rapturist originated fraud of two saved groups (Jesus said there is one flock in John 10) to the term remnant, dispensationalism and remnant theology are mutually exclusive. Widely misunderstood (and routinely misrepresented) by those in the rapture cult, a distinctive feature of Remnant Theology is its embrace of futurism -- the doctrine that states the tribulation and the Antichrist are about to emerge. This sharply differs with those Amillennialist perspectives (Wesleyan, etc) and Post-Millennial systems (Catholic, Dominionist, et al) that see one saved group, but spiritualize the prophecies and neutralize the imminent fulfillment of all things in the process. Remnant is also sometimes mistaken for Seventh Day Adventism or Christian Identity -- both thoroughly false doctrinal systems.
     
  6. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Teamventure; Who are you addressing?
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Yada, yada, yada,.... First, DEFINE "CHURCH!" You THINK you know, but you haven't got a CLUE! For instance, many speak about "the Church" with a capital "C," but that "entity" is merely an extension of the UNIVERSAL ROMAN "Church!" The ROMAN CATHOLIC Church! (The term "Catholic" MEANS "Universal.")

    Is there indeed only one "Church?" Or, are there many "churches" each one in a different community? Why does Revelation describe seven distinct "churches" to whom Yeshua` was addressing each section within chapters 2 and 3?

    Messianic Jews call them "Messianic communities." Why can't we use that term instead?

    What is the "church" in Acts 7?

    Acts 7:36-40
    36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
    39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
    40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
    KJV


    THESE are the questions that you should address first before going into all the rhetoric of your position.
    I know what you are talking about, but I'm trying to figure out if YOU know what you're talking about!
     
  8. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    Trekson got it right.

    Now he's got 'em runnin.' They can't answer the scriptural imperatives.


    lol @ the "Messianic Jew" oxymoron. Shame on you.

    Keras got it right:


    Even my "worthy" 11-year-old daughter got it right. It's about the bloodwork of Jesus Christ -- not ethnicity or the "irresistible grace" heresy.

    .
     
  9. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    anyone who says that the church has replaced Israel in their biblical promises from God.
     
  10. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    and


    Even as you do not understand who/what "Israel" was/is, your posturing and threats remain impotent.

    It's not rocket science and brain surgeons hold no advantage.

    The pre-trib rapture theory is a relatively new arrival on the apostacy platter and can be easily demolished on the issue of timing alone.


    Agreed. The church has not replaced Israel -- it has been appended to that construct.
     
  11. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro,

    Your words: “Yada, yada, yada,.... First, DEFINE "CHURCH!" You THINK you know, but you haven't got a CLUE! For instance, many speak about "the Church" with a capital "C," but that "entity" is merely an extension of the UNIVERSAL ROMAN "Church!" The ROMAN CATHOLIC Church! (The term "Catholic" MEANS "Universal.")”

    Is there indeed only one "Church?" Or, are there many "churches" each one in a different community? Why does Revelation describe seven distinct "churches" to whom Yeshua` was addressing each section within chapters 2 and 3?

    So many questions about something most children learn in Sunday School. There is more than one definition of the word “church”. Are you like this at work? Every time a co-worker makes a comment, do you reply, “Well that’s really not how the term was used in ancient times, it’s root is from the Latin meaning (yada, yada, yada) so every time you use that word you are using it wrong?? If so, you’re probably great fun at parties. I remember being lectured a time or two by you, on the proper usage of the word “Jew” meaning it should only be used to describe those of the tribe of Judah and never descriptive of their religion, yet you turn around and use the phrase “Messianic Jews” as if every member of your “community” was from Judah. What gives?
    1. Church = A building where members of the Christian faith unite and worship God together.
    2. Church = An “assembly” of “called out” ones both dead and alive who acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God and have entrusted to Him, their salvation.
    3. Church = Sometimes descriptive of local parts of the Body of Christ.
    4. Church = Sometimes descriptive of the combined international “local bodies” into a universal /global Body of Christ.
    So when I use the phrase “the Church” as I did in the OP I am speaking of a combination of descriptions two and four.

    Regarding your Acts 7 example, I’m sorry but I believe the word “church” to be an unfortunate translation error that should have been the word “assembly” as used in Acts 19:32, 39, 41. It is in no way implying that the “church” began with Israel. In fact Christ tells us when the church began in Matt. 16:18 – “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    Unfortunately, imo, the Catholic Church has misunderstood this to mean that this was Peter’s calling to be the first Pope but Peter is not the “rock”. Christ is the rock and Christ was speaking of himself just as he did here: John 2:19-21 – “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”

    To be more specific we know that Christ is the cornerstone/capstone of the church. This description of the church’s beginnings is described in Eph. 2:20 – “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

    Notice Paul DID NOT say “all of Israel”, but specifically the prophets. How are the prophets part of the foundation? By giving prophecies about the church as I showed you in the OP, although they were unaware of the ‘church” at the time.

    Your words: “Messianic Jews call them "Messianic communities." Why can't we use that term instead?”

    You really need to get over your historic prejudices against the use of the word “church”. While many who considered themselves, the church, have throughout the centuries done harm to the Jewish communities, many in the church have also historically rescued and saved many of the members of the Jewish community as well. You need to accentuate the positive aspects of the church and not the negative. It is likely that 99% of the modern day “church” hasn’t done anything negative towards the Jews in general in the last five or six decades. You shouldn’t judge us (the church) by the acts of an organization that was evil hundreds of years ago.

    I am of the very strong opinion that denominationalism is one the devil’s last and greatest attempts to destroy the global Body of Christ. By separating yourselves into your own little Messianic communities you (collectively) are, in effect, just becoming another denomination. You become another addition to the problem and are not being effective towards a solution. I’ll readily admit I don’t have the answers to this problem but God does and at some point something will happen that will force the “church” of God to stand and unite against some common enemy and those that don’t, will, imo, become part of the prophesied apostasy.
     
  12. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    .


    BINGO!

    It is the denial of the scripture's absolute authority, and not its difficulty of interpretation, that has resulted in the various divisions of Christ's congregation. The Gospel is simple, it’s just that men make it complicated.

    Once an absolute standard has been abandoned, there is no logic for determining right from wrong other than human logic. Whenever a congregation abandons the absolute standard of Scripture, the outcome of all religious and moral decisions is left in the hands of men. And whether these decisions are rendered by clergy, scholars, theologians, courts, synods, membership votes, or forum posters, if the decisions do not come from Scripture, then they must come from people of society, and sooner or later those decisions will inevitably be influenced by society.

    It is not reasonable to maintain that God continues to speak "through the Church" or through prophets or angels or in any way other than His Holy Scriptures. Why not? Consider what the scripture itself says in this matter:

    Galatians 1:8–9 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

    Now if the apostles wrote down what they taught, and these writings were collected and preserved in what we now call the scripture, and then if someone else (even an angel) adds something to what the apostles wrote, aren't they teaching something "other than" what the apostles taught? You see, anyone can claim to speak for God. Anyone can say that God speaks through the Church, or through the priests or through a board of elders or even through a preacher or individual members of a congregation. But in reality, one person's claims are as good as another’s, and one congregation's opinions are as good as another's. If, however, the scripture is God's unerring word, then the one who teaches from it does not teach his opinions, but teaches the truth of God. The entire context of Galatians 1:1-16 shows how denominations are of men, and are a different gospel, and how Paul stayed away from such.

    Religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17). In scripture, God's people are called the Christ's assembly (note: the Greek word ekklesia is translated as 'church' in most bibles; it actually refers to a group of people, and not to a physical building. Therefore, the literal translation is either 'assembly' or 'congregation'). For example, "the assembly of God" (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; 15:9, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 3:5), or "the assembles of God" (1 Cor.11:16; 1 Thess.2:14; 2 Thess.1:4), or "the assembles of Christ" (Romans 16:16). To call the assembly (church) of God by a different name, is to replace the name of God's assembly (church) with a man-made name. God considers "naming the name of Christ" to be iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). All denominations create a man-made name to place on their man-made Church. Where is their authority for doing this?

    1 Corinthians 1:10-13, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you ; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you . Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

    The above verse clearly condemns denominations. The reason for denominations is because those in the assembly (church) did not "speak the same thing", and that caused "divisions among them", and were no longer "joined together." Therefore, they formed different ‘Churches’ because of all the ‘contentions among them’. Just like how, in the above verses, those in the first century divided themselves and said they were of the assembly of "Chloe, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.", denominations today divide themselves and say they are of the Church of the "Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Open Brethren, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Quakers, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." But, as Paul asks above, "Is Christ divided?" If not, then how can these divided Churches be of Christ?

    Another example of an attempt to ‘divide’ God into separate ‘Churches’ is at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36). After Peter saw Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, he wanted to build a tabernacle (Church) for each one of them. But the Father himself descended in a cloud and said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." In other words, we are to submit to Jesus only, and preach what he says. This attitude is reflected in the last recorded words of the mother of Jesus, Mary, when she said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (John 2:5). We are not to build temples after other men, or upon other men’s teachings, but we are to do what Jesus told us to do.

    Psalms 133:1, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"

    1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

    It is not possible to "dwell together in unity," or to "love the brethren" when denominations are too busy fighting with each other and disagreeing with each other.

    Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

    Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.

    As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3,6, Mark 7:8,9,13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8,9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).

    "The Bible in no way envisages the organization of the church into denominations. It instead assumes the opposite, that all Christians, except those being disciplined, will be in full fellowship with all others. Any tendencies to the contrary were roundly denounced (1 Cor.1:10-13). Paul could write a letter to the Christians meeting in various places in Rome or Galatia with every assurance that all would receive its message. Today, for any city or country, he would have to place the letter as an advertisement in the secular media and hope." Elwell’s Evangelistic Dictionary of Theology, (1984), page 310.

    "Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only in the "person" of the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God." E.W. Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.

    "We do not use any non-scriptural words or expressions. These are the things which divide the members of the One Body, instead of uniting them. These introduce the seeds of strife and contention. These have been the causes of controversies and martyrdom’s". E.W.Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.

    On the 26th of May, 1786, James Madison, who subsequently became president of the United States, said in a sermon he delivered before the Protestant Episcopal Church in the State of Virginia, "I earnestly recommend to our Christians to reject every system as the fallible production of human contrivance, which shall dictate the articles of faith; and adopt the Gospel alone as their guide. Those Christian societies will ever be found to have formed their union upon principles, the wisest and the best, which makes the scriptures alone, and not human articles, a confession of belief, the sole rule of faith and conduct." W.D. Frazie "Reminiscences and Sermons"(1896. page 63).

    James Madison also said, "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

    In the New Testament, the English word "heresy" is from an untranslated Greek word (word #139). It's used nine times; four times it is left untranslated, but the other five times it is translated. This word is translated as "sect" (i.e., denomination) in Acts 5:17; 15:5; 24:5; 26:5 and 28:22. However, it is left untranslated in Acts 24:14, 1 Corinthians 11:19, Galatians 5:20 and 2 Peter 2:1. Let’s see what some of these verses would say if it was translated.

    1 Corinthians 11:18-19, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects, denominations] among you..."

    It shows that denominations cause divisions! What else does scripture say about sects?

    Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (sects, denominations), Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    Denominations are defined as a work of the flesh! We are told that they who partake of these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why not? Because denominations cause divisions, and Christ is not divided. Therefore, denominations are not of Christ!

    2 Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (sects, denominations), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

    This passage says false prophets and false teachers will bring in denominations, and they will deny the Lord. Denominations do deny the Lord by dividing the Lord.

    When you start getting into re-definitions and re-statements of the Truth, you’re no longer in the Truth, you’re an image of the Truth. A sect or denomination is not the real thing, it is not the Truth; it is only an interpretation of the Truth, it is only a perception of the Truth. The works of men (creeds, confessions, or articles of faith) quicken no one and save no souls.

    John 6:63, "It is the spirit [*not creeds, confessions, or articles of faith] that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    Hosea 8:6, "…the workman made it [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]; therefore it is not God:"

    Isaiah 17:7-8, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]..."

    Also, when people say they are a "New Testament Church", they separate themselves, because they’re saying they popped up at some point 2,000 years ago, whereas God's "church" is from the beginning (Gen.1:1, Psalms 119:160, Pro.8:23, Isa.40:21; 41:4,26; 46:10; 48:5, Jer.17:12, Mark 10:6, Acts 15:18, Col.1:18, 1 John 2:7; 3:11, 2 John 1:5,6, Rev.21:6; 22:13). The "New Covenant Church," for example, is an imperfect church like all other denominations.

    -- Richard
     
  13. teamventure

    teamventure Active Member

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    not making threats just quoting scripture, but i'm glad you agree.
     
  14. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Just a quick answer: "What gives?" We are Messianic Jews because we ARE from the tribe of Y'hudah through the blood of the Messiah, Yeshua` of Natsaret, the son of Daviyd, the son of Yishai, the son of `Oved, the son of Bo`az, the son of Salmon, the son of Nachshon, the son of Amminadav, the son of Admin, the son of Arniy, the son of Chetsron, the son of Perets, the son of Y'hudah! We are placed in HIS tribe when becoming justified by God and "born again!'
    Matthew 1:1
    1:1 This is the genealogy of Yeshua the Messiah, son of David, son of Avraham:
    CJB

    Luke 3:31-33
    31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
    32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
    33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
    CJB


    2 Corinthians 5:17-21
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    KJV


    1 John 5:1
    5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    KJV


    Ephesians 2:13-20
    13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
    17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
    19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself.
    CJB


    1 Corinthians 12:27
    27 Now you together constitute the body of the Messiah, and individually you are parts of it.
    CJB
     
  15. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, As long as you agree that all that you said applies to gentiles as well, I have no problem with it.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    You said, "So many questions about something most children learn in Sunday School. There is more than one definition of the word 'church.' Are you like this at work? Every time a co-worker makes a comment, do you reply, 'Well that’s really not how the term was used in ancient times, it’s root is from the Latin meaning (yada, yada, yada) so every time you use that word you are using it wrong?' If so, you’re probably great fun at parties. I remember being lectured a time or two by you, on the proper usage of the word “Jew” meaning it should only be used to describe those of the tribe of Judah and never descriptive of their religion, yet you turn around and use the phrase “Messianic Jews” as if every member of your “community” was from Judah. What gives?"

    Well, first of all, children learn what others LEAD them to learn and TELL them to learn in Sunday School, but are they learning the whole TRUTH or are they learning rhetoric - pat answers for simple questions and doctrinal drivel? Are they learning TRUTH or someone's OPINION?

    Second, a "Messianic Jew" IS a Jew first! Who do you think was the "King of the Jews?" Haven't you made that connection, yet?! We become Jews (even if we weren't originally Jews) the moment we experience the New Birth! We are born into His family through His blood. Thus, we are in His "tribe," which is yet another word for "family!" We are children of God the King through His Messiah Yeshua`, who was and still is a JEW!

    You then gave these definitions for "church":

    1. Church = A building where members of the Christian faith unite and worship God together.
    2. Church = An “assembly” of “called out” ones both dead and alive who acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God and have entrusted to Him, their salvation.
    3. Church = Sometimes descriptive of local parts of the Body of Christ.
    4. Church = Sometimes descriptive of the combined international “local bodies” into a universal /global Body of Christ.
    So when I use the phrase “the Church” as I did in the OP I am speaking of a combination of descriptions two and four.

    Thank you for your definitions! Now, I agree with you that the word is used in these ways, but what would you say if I told you that NONE of these definitions is the original definition? Through several languages, the word comes from the Greek word "kuriakon" which means "of [the] Lord." It's a QUALIFIER for the OTHER Greek word that is usually translated "church," "ekkleesia." "Ekkleesia," coming from the two Greek words "ek" meaning "out from" and "kaleoo" meaning "I call," means a "called-out (assembly)," which gives rise to your second definition. So, technically, the "church" is really the "ekkleesia kuriakon," the "called-out (assembly) of (the) Lord." That's admittedly a LOT to say; so, we've condensed it down to the single-syllable word "church."

    Now, I'm sorry for going on and on about the definitions, but that is the FIRST step to meaningful communication! Once we've defined our terms, THEN we can begin to use those terms EFFECTIVELY to talk! Now, my definition of "Messianic community" is an "embodied or face-to-face social unit that shares common values, and one of those values is namely that Yeshua` (Jesus) was and is the Messiah (the Mashiach, the Christ) of God, as promised in the prophecies of the Tanakh."

    Now, the problem with a term that has multiple definitions like "church" does is that you have to keep asking "to which definition are you referring?" You frequently have to listen to the whole spiel of what one is saying to deduce which definition one is using THIS time, using his/her context to define the term! The term is too NEBULOUS!

    See, in your list of definitions above, I reject 1 and 4. I believe definition 1 should be used as a QUALIFIER, referring to a "church's BUILDING." Definition 4, I believe, is a HOLD-OUT from most Protestant churches that still have in their teachings or in their memories of their Roman Catholic Church (RCC) origins the concept that there is a "universal body!" I STRONGLY disagree! I don't accept that on any level, because I don't accept that there is a "CATHOLIC" (or "UNIVERSAL") body; it's not found in the Scriptures AT ALL! It is ONLY found in the historical teachings of the RCC!

    So, when you said, "I am speaking of a combination of descriptions two and four," we can NOW see why we don't agree! You accept definition 4 (at least in part), and I do not! Where we go from here is yet to be determined; however, NOW we've connected! We have a basis for meaningful communication!

    You said, "Regarding your Acts 7 example, I’m sorry but I believe the word 'church' to be an unfortunate translation error that should have been the word 'assembly' as used in Acts 19:32, 39, 41. It is in no way implying that the 'church' began with Israel. In fact Christ tells us when the church began in Matt. 16:18 – 'And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'

    Unfortunately, imo, the Catholic Church has misunderstood this to mean that this was Peter’s calling to be the first Pope but Peter is not the 'rock.' Christ is the rock and Christ was speaking of himself just as he did here: John 2:19-21 – 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.'"

    I'm mostly in agreement with you on this ... IF you are in agreement that "his body" is not the "church" but His actual, physical, flesh-and-bone body that was raised from the tomb. However, does the word "build" mean "BEGIN to build" or "CONTINUE to build" or could it mean something else? We tend to think "upward" from the foundation, but it could also mean to EXPAND HORIZONTALLY an existing structure upon an ADDITIONAL foundation! However, here's something more to chew on:

    NT:3618 oikodomeoo (oy-kod-om-eh'-o); from the same as NT:3619; to be a house-builder, i.e. construct or (figuratively) confirm:
    KJV - (be in) build (-er, -ing, up), edify, embolden.

    NT:3619 oikodomee (oy-kod-om-ay'); feminine (abstract) of a compound of NT:3624 and the base of NT:1430; architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure; figuratively, confirmation:
    KJV - building, edify (-ication, -ing).

    NT:3620 oikodomia (oy-kod-om-ee'-ah); from the same as NT:3619; confirmation:
    KJV - edifying.

    NT:3624 oikos (oy'-kos); of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication a family (more or less related, literal or figuratively):
    KJV - home, house (-hold), temple.

    NT:1430 dooma (do'-mah); from demoo (to build); properly, an edifice, i.e. (specially) a roof:
    KJV - housetop.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    "Oikodomeoo" is the Greek verb (in its future-indicative-active-1st person-singular form) that is translated as "I will build" So, it is possible that He meant "upon this rock (petra) I shall EDIFY or EMBOLDEN my ekkleesia."

    Now, regarding the words "rock (petra)" and "Peter," we should look at those, too:
    NT:4073 petra (pet'-ra); feminine of the same as NT:4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively):
    KJV - rock.

    NT:4074 Petros (pet'-ros); apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than NT:3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:
    KJV - Peter, rock. Compare NT:2786.
    NT:3037 lithos (lee'-thos); apparently a primary word; a stone (literally or figuratively):
    KJV - (mill-, stumbling-) stone.

    NT:2786 Keephas (kay-fas'); of Aramaic origin [compare OT:3710]; the Rock; Cephas (i.e. Kepha), a surname of Peter:
    KJV - Cephas.

    OT:3710 keef (kafe); from OT:3721; a hollow rock:
    KJV - rock.

    OT:3721 kaafaf (kaw-faf'); a primitive root; to curve:
    KJV - bow down (self).

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    Thus, Peter's name means "a geode," rough and unimpressive on the outside but full of beautiful crystals inside! One can go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geode for a good description of a "geode" and some pictures. It is NOT a stone upon which one would build ANY structure!

    (I had a beloved and wise teacher in 4th grade everyone called "Mr. B." He taught us a saying that has stuck with me through my life: "It's strange how much you have to know before you know how LITTLE you know!")

    "Petra," on the other hand, is "BEDROCK!" So, I agree that Yeshua` was not talking about building it upon "Petros" or "Kefa" ("Cephas"); He WAS talking about Himself or upon the IDEA that Kefa expressed, namely: "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God," which is STILL about Himself.

    So, I reject the idea that this is when His "church" began! There's not enough evidence to suggest that this is when it began. To the contrary, we have verses like the Acts 7 passage and ...

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4
    1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized (immersed) unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ (the Messiah).
    KJV


    ... to suggest it was ALREADY IN EXISTENCE! I don't believe that Acts 7 was mistranslated at all! In fact, I rather agree with the premise that Robert Young made in His Young's Literal Translation of the Bible, that one should CONSISTENTLY translate each word from the original languages. (Mind you, I don't AGREE with other points that Young made in his translation nor do I like some of his choices for how he translated certain words, but I do like that ONE factor.)

    You said, "To be more specific we know that Christ is the cornerstone/capstone of the church. This description of the church’s beginnings is described in Eph. 2:20 – 'And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.'

    Notice Paul DID NOT say 'all of Israel,' but specifically the prophets. How are the prophets part of the foundation? By giving prophecies about the church as I showed you in the OP, although they were unaware of the ‘church' at the time."

    Consider this: As you have accepted that Yeshua` the Messiah is the CAPSTONE (Psalm 118:22, Hebrew: "l-ro'sh pinnaah" = "to the head of the corner/angle/pinnacle") of the "church," then He is the FINISHING TOUCH on the building! This comes from a VERY interesting verse:

    Tehiyl 118:22
    22 Even maa’acuw habowniym haaytaah l-ro’sh pinnaah.
    JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH (transliterated)
    Even = (The)-stone
    maa’acuw = refused
    habowniym = of-the-builders
    haaytaah = is-become
    l-ro’sh = to-(the)-head
    pinnaah. = of-corner/angle.

    (The)-stone refused of-the-buliders is-become to-the-head of-the-corner/angle.

    The word picture is that of the builders of a pyramid, of which the children of Isra'el were familiar since their ancestors had lived in Egypt for 430 years and probably helped (as slaves) in some of the construction!

    Here's a poem I wrote several years ago about this:

    The builders are getting stones from the quarry to work into the pyramid structure. They come across this one stone that, no matter how they turn it, just wouldn't fit in. So, they send it back to the quarry. When they are finished with the building, they look at the structure and remember that stone they sent back. "Oops! That would have made a PERFECT capstone!"

    So, the point is that the building of the pyramid HAD ALREADY BEEN STARTED when Yeshua` came on the scene! He didn't fit in to their concept of the structure because He was the final objective, the ultimate goal, the epitome of God's Kingdom!

    You said, "You really need to get over your historic prejudices against the use of the word 'church.' While many who considered themselves, the church, have throughout the centuries done harm to the Jewish communities, many in the church have also historically rescued and saved many of the members of the Jewish community as well. You need to accentuate the positive aspects of the church and not the negative. It is likely that 99% of the modern day 'church' hasn’t done anything negative towards the Jews in general in the last five or six decades. You shouldn’t judge us (the church) by the acts of an organization that was evil hundreds of years ago.

    I am of the very strong opinion that denominationalism is one the devil’s last and greatest attempts to destroy the global Body of Christ. By separating yourselves into your own little Messianic communities you (collectively) are, in effect, just becoming another denomination. You become another addition to the problem and are not being effective towards a solution. I’ll readily admit I don’t have the answers to this problem but God does and at some point something will happen that will force the 'church' of God to stand and unite against some common enemy and those that don’t, will, imo, become part of the prophesied apostasy."

    I don't think so. You see, I won't get over the "historic prejudices" because the JEWS (and other Hebrews) have not gotten over it, yet! I'm not judging the "church"; but the Jews are! They collectively remember what was done to them over and over again in the name of the "Church" and in the name of "Jesus Christ" over that last 2,000 years! This is why they have such FEAR of and an AVERSION to the name of "Jesus Christ!" This is why it is in our missionary endeavors to their communities to leave the English name "Jesus Christ" behind and go back to His ORIGINAL HEBREW (ARAMAIC) name, "Yeshua` the Messiah!" We circumvent history and reveal to them the TRUE nature of the Messiah of God, THEIR Messiah, who DIED for them to give them life!

    Again, there is NO SUCH THING as a "global Body of Christ!" It's not in the Scriptures, and it's not in our best interest to side with the idea of such a thing! You are worried about "denominationalism" when what you SHOULD be worried about is "ECUMENISM!" It is the merging of various denominations without a clear understanding of "what is right" in the Scriptures that presents the greatest danger! It WATERS DOWN the Gospel message! Such was the case when Billy Graham opened his revival meetings to include Catholics as altar-call counselors! Just who do these people coming to the Lord hear? What is the message that they receive when they stream to the altar? And, no, it's not just the Catholics! There are many who teach that one must be baptized to be "saved." There are some who believe that you must do good works to be "saved." There are some who believe that all one has to do is say some bunch of words and one is "saved." There are MANY ways that one could become a "spiritual abortion!" To have a "church" FILLED with these "spiritual abortions," thinking that they are "born again," is the biggest threat for a "prophesied apostasy!"
     
  17. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    Circe was an ancient Greek goddess who could hypnotize men, bring them into her house, and turn them into animals -- taking their minds away, so that they could support and feed her. She was known as "Mother Circe," and her worship was brought to medieval Scotland, in whose language Circe became "Kirk." The Scottish word "Kirk" becomes "Church" in English. Where else have we seen the word "Kirk?" Ah yes, we have "Captain Kirk" taking mankind where it has never gone before ...... with the U.S.S. Enterprise:

    We know that churches are money-making corporations / "enterprises." Is this why churches and money are both divided into "denominations?"

    Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality....

    Meaning of Church Built On A Rock In Matthew 16:18

    "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17.And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    19.And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:16-19


    Two key words in understanding Matthew 16: 18 are rock and church. If you get them wrong, you can end up with false doctrine and fables. On "rock" the main question is, what or who is the rock?

    The “rock" is the foundation upon which the Lord says He will build his “church,” and the Gates of Hell shall have no power over those who belong to Him. Most people in the Capital C Churches do not understand that the "Church" is the called out ones the Lord is talking about as his little c church. But more are aware this is the very verse which the “Church” that became Roman Catholicism interpreted to mean that Peter himself, being the “rock” upon which Christ was to build His assembly, was the first Pope and head of the Capital C Church.

    But the real Peter says in I Peter 5:2-3 says "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

    There was a problem in the Capital C Church as Roman Catholicism re-defined the little c church into a man made organization of supposed authority and control over the beliefs and behavior of men.

    William Tyndale in his 1526 New Testament translated ekklesia consistently as congregation, except for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37 where he used churche, meaning a pagan place of worship.

    ekklesia is defined as "a calling out, i.e. (to) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation..." The calling out part of the meaning of ekklesia did not mean a calling out of the world to God, but meant a calling of the people or certain people to a meeting.

    "The ecclesia or ekklesia (Greek: eκκλησία) was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its "Golden Age" (480–404 BCE). It was the popular assembly, open to all male citizens with 2 years of military service. In 594 BC, Solon allowed all Athenian citizens to participate, regardless of class, even the thetes. The assembly was responsible for declaring war, military strategy and electing the strategoi and other officials. It was responsible for nominating and electing magistrates, thus indirectly electing the members of the Areopagus."

    "The most common classical usage of ekklesia and its cognates was as a political term, meaning an assembly of citizens. In the Greek city-state the citizens were called forth by the trumpet of the kerux (herald) summoning them to the ekklesia (assembly).........It should be noted that in ordinary usage, ekklesia meant the assembly, and not the body of people involved....Two important Hebrew words were used in the Old Testament to denote a gathering or assembly: qahal and edhah..........Though ekklesia is nearly always a translation of qahal, on the other hand, qahal is also translated by other Greek words, especially by sunagoge."

    In the New Testament, for the Book of Acts "In every case, with one possible exception, ekklesia. is explicitly or implicitly used in a local sense: it is the assembly (assembled or not) at Jerusalem (11:22; 12:1, 5; 15:4, 22), at Antioch (11:26; 13:1; 14:27; 15:3), at Caesarea (18:22), and at Ephesus (20:17,28). This local use is emphasized by the use of the plural, ekklesiai, when referring to churches in a larger area: in Syria and Cilicia (15 :41) and in areas of Asia Minor (16:4). The one possible exception to the local use is the statement in 9 :31: "So then the Church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, having been strengthened."

    In using ekklesia in Matthew 16: 18 Matthew is referring to Christ's assembly, his congregation or his gathering.

    The Tyndale Bible for Matthew 16: 18 says "And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my congregation: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

    The Capital C Roman Church made the word ekklesia or Latin ecclesia into the Body of Christ which was said to replace Old Covenant Israel. The Capital C Church, as a translation of ekklesia, meaning the meeting, assembly, congregation or gathering, was re-defined by the Catholic Church to mean a spiritual Body of Christ like Old Covenant Israel.

    Israel is a proper noun. But ekklesia, or congregation, is a common noun. The church as a meeting or assembly called out from the people cannot have the status of a proper noun and be equal to the proper noun Israel, or replace Israel. Israel was transformed in Jesus Christ, as he told Nicodemus in John 3: 3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." This transformation of Old Covenant Israel was predicted to happen in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29:16, and especially in Jeremiah 18:1-6. No names of the people born again in Christ are given in the New Testament except the elect, the Body of Christ, the saints or those in Sion.

    Those who are transformed or born again come to have Christ formed in them. Galatians 4: 19: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

    Philippians 2: 5: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"

    "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " II Corinthians 13: 5

    You become spiritually alive by a transformation, and this transformation is your receiving Christ in you. Christ begins to be formed in you, by the Holy Spirit. You receive something of the mind of Christ.

    So, in Matthew 16: 18 Christ is not talking about the re-defined Capital C Church of Roman Catholicism which was continued by the Calvinists, especially by Theodore Beza who used church in his translation of the Textus Receptus, rejecting the earlier translation of ekklesia as congregation by Tyndale. The Geneva Bible, which was created in Geneva, Switzerland by English protestants, followed the lead of Beza and translated ekklesia as church.

    To make the assembly, congregation of regular meetings of the Christians into a proper noun Capital C Church, as the Body of Christ and as the elect of God, would be to diminish a number of New Testament scriptures. These would include Matthew 13:24-43 where the field is said to have both wheat and tares. This acknowledges that in the assemblies there will be tares, or those not of the Body of Christ and of the elect. II Thessalonians 2:3-4 on the falling away is a very important scripture predicting a departure from sound doctrine. Paul has several other texts that support the falling away, especially in I Timothy and in II Timothy. Matthew 24: 11, and II Peter 2:1-3, as well as some more metaphoric texts in Revelation, are about a huge number of false prophets who will arise within the assemblies, now called the Church. The false prophets lead people away from the kingdom of God.

    What then does the word "church" mean, or did it mean before it was re-defined.

    The link to the longer definition of church in the Oxford English Dictionary is: Y: The English word "CHURCH" comes from CIRCE!! - §1. ÊÎÍÑÈËÈÓÌ

    "CHURCH: FORMS: (a) cirice, cyrice, chiriche, churiche, chereche, (CIRCE, cyrce, chyrce, cirke, etc., etc.,

    "The ulterior derivation has been keenly disputed. The L. circus, and a Gothic word kйlikn 'tower, upper chamber' (app. originally Gaulish) have both been proposed (the latter suggested by the Alemannic chilihha), but are set aside as untenable; and there is now a general agreement among scholars in referring it to the Greek word, properly kurion adj. 'of the Lord, dominicum, dominical' (f. Kurios lord), which occurs, from the 3rd century at least, used substantively (sc. doma, or the like) = 'house of the Lord', as a name of the Christian house of worship. Of this the earliest cited instances are in the Apostolical Constitutions (II. 59), a 300, the edict of Maximinus (303-13), cited by Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. ix. 10) a 324, the Councils of Ancyra 314 (Canon 15), Neo-Caesarea 314-23 (Can. 5), and Laodicea (Can. 28).
    Thenceforward it appears to have been in fairly common use in the East: e.g., Constantine named several churches built by him Kuriaka (Eusebius De Laud. Const. xvii),"(Oxford English Dictionary).

    CIRCE was a Greek goddess who turned men into PIGS!!"

    The Oxford English Dictionary mentions the Greek goddess circe, and also says in caps in its list of spellings of church, the word CIRCE. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists circe as one spelling of church, but does not mention a possible origin of circe from the Greek goddess circe.

    By misinterpreting Matthew 16:16-19 the Catholic Church created a false seniority for the office of Peter as the guardian of the gates of heaven from this passage. The Roman Church made up a fable as a succession of "Peter-like" Popes. This fable is also the origin of the tradition that has Peter at the pearly gates, the keeper of the gates to heaven and it has become a universal component of popular lore and many jokes.

    The theological entity that became the organized “Church” was continued in Protestantism at the Reformation, especially by Calvinist Therodore Beza, and under dispensationalism and other false doctrines continues to assert its rule over Christian doctrine. But not having the holy spirit, and being "Babylon," Christ is no longer in it. "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 23

    "And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2.And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    3. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:1-4

    God is calling those who are his out of the Capital C Church after the falling away has happened.

    The "rock" in Matthew 16: 18 is not Peter himself. The "rock" is Christ, and he promised he would build his congregation, his assembly, upon himself. In fact, Ephesians 2:19-20 says "ye," meaning the Gentiles joined to Israel, "...are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone."

    In Ephesians 2:12-13 the Gentiles are said to have been aliens from Israel, but are made close (to Israel) by the blood of Christ. There is no ekklesia, translated in the King James as church, here. But the Israel to which the believing Gentiles are made close to is not Old Covenant Israel, but Israel reborn in Christ. There is no church to replace Old Covenant Israel as the Catholics might teach, nor is there two peoples of God, Israel and the Church, as dispensationalism tries to teach.

    -- Brother Bernard
    .
    .
     
  18. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, I’m only going to respond to a few of the comments you made.

    Your words: “Second, a "Messianic Jew" IS a Jew first! Who do you think was the "King of the Jews?" Haven't you made that connection, yet?! We become Jews (even if we weren't originally Jews) the moment we experience the New Birth! We are born into His family through His blood. Thus, we are in His "tribe," which is yet another word for "family!" We are children of God the King through His Messiah Yeshua`, who was and still is a JEW!”

    I really have to disagree with your conclusions! We DO NOT become Jews and we do not become Israel. Want proof? Gal. 3:28-29 – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    Col. 3:11 – “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”
    Christ is not just the King of the Jews, He is the King of the whole world. (Rev. 11:15) We are the children of the promise, not children of Israel! As I stated before, we are not grafted into the “Tree of Israel”, there is no such thing, we are grafted into the Way of God!

    Rom. 9:8 – “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

    Gal. 4:28 – “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

    Rom. 3:28-29 – “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.”

    We don’t have to become Jews for God to become our God, He is the God of the Gentiles as well! The family of God is not Israel, nor is it Judaism, it is simple made up of those individuals who have faith in God and Christ and because of that faith we become part of His family. The idea that because it was Jewish blood that Christ shed has some great significance is nonsense. The only part of His blood that has significance is, it was the blood of a perfect, sinless man who because of His perfection qualified to become the Perfect Sacrifice!

    Rom. 9:8 – “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
    1. Church = Sometimes descriptive of the combined international “local bodies” into a universal /global Body of Christ.
    So when I use the phrase “the Church” as I did in the OP I am speaking of a combination of descriptions two and four.

    Your words: “See, in your list of definitions above, I reject 1 and 4. I believe definition 1 should be used as a QUALIFIER, referring to a "church's BUILDING." Definition 4, I believe, is a HOLD-OUT from most Protestant churches that still have in their teachings or in their memories of their Roman Catholic Church (RCC) origins the concept that there is a "universal body!" I STRONGLY disagree! I don't accept that on any level, because I don't accept that there is a "CATHOLIC" (or "UNIVERSAL") body; it's not found in the Scriptures AT ALL! It is ONLY found in the historical teachings of the RCC!”

    So, when you said, "I am speaking of a combination of descriptions two and four," we can NOW see why we don't agree! You accept definition 4 (at least in part), and I do not! Where we go from here is yet to be determined; however, NOW we've connected! We have a basis for meaningful communication!

    Wow! You are waaay over-thinking this! That’s the problem with too much education. One loses sight of the simplicity of things. The universal or global church has zero to do with Catholicism or ecumenicalism. It’s simply a matter of logistics and geography! I believe there are believers and members of the Body of Christ in every nation in the world. Some are individuals but most have or belong to a church. It doesn’t matter if the church consists of two or three members meeting in homes or if it’s a congregation of thousands meeting in a church building.

    The global or universal “Church” or the “Body of Christ” is simply made up of all these individuals in all these nations. The Body of Christ is still being built but ALL are included! What did you think the Body of Christ was made of ?
    Rom. 12:4-5 – “For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

    1 Cor. 12:12-27 – “ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
    18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
    19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
    20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
    21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
    22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
    23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
    24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
    25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
    26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
    27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”

    Now how can you deny the fact that there is a universal Body of Christ made of every living and dead Christian there ever was?

    Your words: “Again, there is NO SUCH THING as a "global Body of Christ!" It's not in the Scriptures, and it's not in our best interest to side with the idea of such a thing!”

    I think I’ve proven differently.
     
  19. sojourner4Christ

    sojourner4Christ sojourning non-citizen

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    You're on top of this, Trekson.

    Now, who stands to gain by promoting a return to OT Jewry? It's a no-brainer.
     
  20. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Killed a big one, haven't we? Ever hear of a "straw man hypothesis?"

    You said, "I really have to disagree with your conclusions! We DO NOT become Jews and we do not become Israel. Want proof?
    Gal. 3:28-29 – 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'
    Col. 3:11 – 'Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.'
    Christ is not just the King of the Jews, He is the King of the whole world. (Rev. 11:15) We are the children of the promise, not children of Israel! As I stated before, we are not grafted into the “Tree of Israel”, there is no such thing, we are grafted into the Way of God!

    Rom. 9:8 – 'That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.'
    Gal. 4:28 – 'Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.'
    Rom. 3:28-29 – 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.'
    We don’t have to become Jews for God to become our God, He is the God of the Gentiles as well! The family of God is not Israel, nor is it Judaism, it is simple made up of those individuals who have faith in God and Christ and because of that faith we become part of His family. The idea that because it was Jewish blood that Christ shed has some great significance is nonsense. The only part of His blood that has significance is, it was the blood of a perfect, sinless man who because of His perfection qualified to become the Perfect Sacrifice!
    Rom. 9:8 – 'That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.'"

    However, you're not following Paul's logic all the way through! For instance, who were the "children of flesh" as opposed to the "children of promise" within his treatise? (You REALLY NEED to quit pulling verses out of their context to make them say what you want them to say! Why do you think I quote so much Scripture at once?! It's to catch that context!)

    You brought up Romans 9:8 ... TWICE! Shall we look at the FULL context, hmmmm?

    Romans 9:6-13
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    KJV


    "The children of the flesh" were the children that Avraham had through the physical attempt to "help God out" by Sarai's handmaid, Hagar, and his later concubine Keturah. The children he has through normal relations were NOT the children of promise. Yitschaq (Isaac) was the child of promise! What promise?

    Genesis 18:10, 14
    10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    ...

    14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    KJV


    THAT was the promise! That promise passed on, according to God, since He said "the elder would serve the younger," to Jacob/Isra'el! Furthermore, He said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." So, ironically, if you are claiming to be children of the promise, then YOU are also claiming to be children of Isra'el!

    Isn't it interesting how the VERY VERSES YOU QUOTED are proof of what I was saying?!

    Now, regarding the analogy of the body to the ekkleesia, this analogy was NOT extended to all Christians all around the world! It was a LOCAL analogy made of the ekkleesia to Korinth. However, as I've said before, it is impossible for a finger in Albuquerque to scratch a nose in Timbuktu!
     
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