The Problem With The Trinity

[bbyrd009]

If He was just another man, the N.T. has no logic.

you are just another man, and you are called to be elohim too i guess. There are several ways to contemplate the lengths Christ went to to portray Himself as Just Another Man, Son of Man, the story is reinforced in the Bethlehem/Nazareth/Capernaum associations also, once those are understood symbolically, why do you call Me good even, i mean this is a powerful statement, no one is good but God.

wadr we are raised to believe that Jesus desires or requires worship as God, this is what the Trinity is all about imo, turning us all into Nehushtan worshippers rather than elohim carrying our own crosses

 

[GodsGrace]

you are just another man, and you are called to be elohim too i guess. There are several ways to contemplate the lengths Christ went to to portray Himself as Just Another Man, Son of Man, the story is reinforced in the Bethlehem/Nazareth/Capernaum associations also, once those are understood symbolically, why do you call Me good even, i mean this is a powerful statement, no one is good but God.

wadr we are raised to believe that Jesus desires or requires worship as God, this is what the Trinity is all about imo, turning us all into Nehushtan worshippers rather than elohim carrying our own crosses

bb, if we truly understood Jesus WE ARE all elohim carrying our own crosses.
We are to be enveloped by God and become aware of Him at all times and enter into HIS world and Kingdom.

This is a concept not easy to get across but I do believe you understand it. We're not supposed to be on the outside looking in, but be a part of the light.

No one is good but God...Jesus was the LIGHT OF GOD. He came to teach us about that light and how to be a part of it.

Does that make Him God, if He is the light as John said?
Or does that make Him to be another Krishna, who was also plainly a light of God?

K never claimed to be God.
Did Jesus ever claim to be God?
This is the question that must be answered.

 

[bbyrd009]

K never claimed to be God.
Did Jesus ever claim to be God?
This is the question that must be answered.

well, tbh i don't see why it must be definitively answered, but bam do so if you like, i would note the weird thing we have where claiming to be something is often the best indicator that one is not really that something, but only wishes they were, or is trying to impress others, like that. "Before Abraham was, I AM" applies to me in a certain posture too, see, applies to you, too, when you are there in that place

"God is the head of Christ" that you can Quote, right, the other, not so much, you gotta squint, you need a scribe now, you gotta ignore certain vv, and if you go too far the other way, Jesus is just another guy, John Doe from Nowhere, you run into probs there too. So any answer will ever only be half right imo

 

[FHII]

Sorry, just saw this.
Why is the above not the Trinity??
You said you do Not believe in the Trinity, and then you explained it...
Sorry, you might have done this already, but could you explain a little?

The difference is I don't seperate one from another. I don't call the three persons. I don't believe they are seperate but co-equal.

I see God as one God who manifests himself in many ways.

 

[FHII]

Regarding the Nicene Creed and Arianism, I recently read an interesting book that covered the history.

It had surprisingly little to do with Rome. Arianism was a problem in North Afriia, the Middle east and Turkey. The were pockets in Italy (Notably Milan) but it wasn't widespread. While invitations were sent throughout the Empire, the Pope ( Or Bishop of Rome)didn't even attend
(though he did send representaticves).

The Arians did believe Jesus was the son of God, but denied he was God or had any divinity: he was fully human and not at all God.

I can't remember all, but Constantine (who was headquartered in Constaninople or Istanbul) appeared impartial. He applauded good dialogue on both sides and jeered poor arguments on both sides.

I did say "appeared" impartial. He seemed also to respect the Roman orthodoxy more and chances are politics played heavy. Thus, Arianism was out.

The problem only temporarily went away though. Future emporers were heavily influenced by Arianism and the belief that Jesus was God (and the Trinity belief) was in danger for several centuries overall.

I am going on memory, so any challenges or calls for clarification are welcome; I will check my notes.

History is wonderful! What if Persia would've conquered Greece? What if Carthage would've defeated Rome? What if Arianism would've been able to persuade Constantine? What is Charles Martel lost to the Muslims? What if the Pope would've been a little more receptive to Martin Luther?

Subtile things couldve happened in all these events that would've drastically changed life today.

 

[gadar perets]

Our natural God-given wisdom also informs us that the Son is of the same nature as His Father. Like Father like Son right? Me, being human, even before I have any children, assumes my own sons are also human. And guess what, joy oh joy, they are. And praise God, so also are my daughters. Why ought we accept anything other than that basic fundamental truth, that like begets like in relation to God and His Son? So the Son must also be God, right? Scripture clearly confirms this also, Jesus Himself testifying to His own divinity.

Since Miriam was human and YHWH is not, like did not beget like. This is only possible through procreation between like kinds. In Yeshua's case, Miriam's egg was fertilized with the necessary DNA to create a human male child miraculously by YHWH's spoken words (logos). Yeshua was not a spirit being that was somehow miniaturized and put in Miriam's womb.

Finally, the Son clearly pre-existed creation, for scripture declares that all things were made by and for Him, the Word made flesh. The Word was in the beginning (John1:1,2) but in the beginning of what? The earth? Creation? No, because the Word pre-existed those things which were made. Could it be rightly said that when the Word was, this was the beginning? Colossians1:15 describes Jesus as the firstborn of every creature, can this refer to the incarnatrion?, no, because the very next verse says by HIm (the firstborn) were all things created. This is the same that is taught in John1:3, confirmed by Col.1:17 saying that He (the firstborn) is before all things.

The Son did not create anything. All things were not created "by" him, but "through" him. Our trinitarian English Bibles chose to translate the Greek "di/dia" as "by" instead of "through". All things were created by Yeshua's Father YHWH and He created all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24) by speaking things into existence (Psalm 33:6,9).

 

[gadar perets]

I like to refer to the ECF (Early Church Fathers, for those who don't know)
They were BEFORE the Council of Nicea and either knew an Apostle or someone who did. This is Christianity before it was tainted by becoming involved with political powers, such as Constantine.

Also, it does seem that the council was held due to beliefs circulating, of which Arius was a prime component, but this doesn't interest me too much...I do know that this heresy was accepted by many at the time. (the heresy of Jesus' not being divine).

Here are some of the statements of the ECF:

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[1]
Polycarp, 69-155 AD

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Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.[2]

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.[3]

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.[4]

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.[5]

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.[6]

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.[7]

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.[8]

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.[9]
Ignatius 50-117AD (Ignatius learned from John the Apostle)

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And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.[10]

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.[11]

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.[12]

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....[13]

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.[14]
Justin Martyr 100-165AD



source: Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God | Stand to Reason

None of those quotes were spoken or written in English. They were translated into English. Therefore, the authors did not say "God". If they spoke Greek, they probably said, "theos". If they spoke Hebrew, they probably said, "elohim". If they spoke ???, they ...

There is no doubt that Yeshua is an elohim or theos. Both words were used of men. Therefore, to translate it as "God" with a capital "G" is to put the translator's bias into the translation just as they did in the Scriptures. Whoever translated the ECF's writings thought he was "God" and used that word to translate "elohim" or "theos" or whatever. That was a big mistake and a huge assumption. Yeshua was a 100% human with no deity. He was filled with the Spirit of the only true deity, YHWH. The only true deity was IN Yeshua via the indwelling Holy Spirit, but was NOT Yeshua.

 

[GodsGrace]

None of those quotes were spoken or written in English. They were translated into English. Therefore, the authors did not say "God". If they spoke Greek, they probably said, "theos". If they spoke Hebrew, they probably said, "elohim". If they spoke ???, they ...

There is no doubt that Yeshua is an elohim or theos. Both words were used of men. Therefore, to translate it as "God" with a capital "G" is to put the translator's bias into the translation just as they did in the Scriptures. Whoever translated the ECF's writings thought he was "God" and used that word to translate "elohim" or "theos" or whatever. That was a big mistake and a huge assumption. Yeshua was a 100% human with no deity. He was filled with the Spirit of the only true deity, YHWH. The only true deity was IN Yeshua via the indwelling Holy Spirit, but was NOT Yeshua.

I know someone that knows both Hebrew and Greek (koine).
The question is if the statements can be found in the original language...probably yes.

Will be doing this in a few days. Checking it out, I mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

The difference is I don't seperate one from another. I don't call the three persons. I don't believe they are seperate but co-equal.

I see God as one God who manifests himself in many ways.

I understand this...but do you mean in many ways or in 3 ways?

I believe they're co-equal but I have learned that they are separate in personality and in the work they do and in attributes...but at the same time they are all one.

Your way is easier to understand, and, quite frankly, I don't get what's wrong with it. But I hear that believing God manifests Himself in different ways in not right.
(I don't know why).

 

[FHII]

But I hear that believing God manifests Himself in different ways in not right.

Whats not right about it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Whats not right about it?

Oh. I don't know. I thought I said that it sounds good to me.
Is it modulism or something?
I really don't care. The Godhead or Trinity is difficult to understand so however one could understand it is fine with me.

 

[FHII]

Oh. I don't know. I thought I said that it sounds good to me.
Is it modulism or something?
I really don't care. The Godhead or Trinity is difficult to understand so however one could understand it is fine with me.

Ok then.

 

[gadar perets]

Oh. I don't know. I thought I said that it sounds good to me.
Is it modulism or something?
I really don't care. The Godhead or Trinity is difficult to understand so however one could understand it is fine with me.

As your video points out at the 1:50 mark, the people began to worship him as God, not because Scripture said he was God, not because Yeshua said he was God, but because of their encounters with him (their perception of him). Below is my corrected view based on Scripture.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus said, if you don't believe me, then believe the miracles I am performing.....

 

[GodsGrace]

well, tbh i don't see why it must be definitively answered, but bam do so if you like, i would note the weird thing we have where claiming to be something is often the best indicator that one is not really that something, but only wishes they were, or is trying to impress others, like that. "Before Abraham was, I AM" applies to me in a certain posture too, see, applies to you, too, when you are there in that place

"God is the head of Christ" that you can Quote, right, the other, not so much, you gotta squint, you need a scribe now, you gotta ignore certain vv, and if you go too far the other way, Jesus is just another guy, John Doe from Nowhere, you run into probs there too. So any answer will ever only be half right imo

Can't remember if I've answered this...
I DO believe it's important to understand who Jesus is.
"And who do YOU say that I am?"

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus said, "I Am!"
And they tried to stone him for claiming to be God!

 

[GodsGrace]

As your video points out at the 1:50 mark, the people began to worship him as God, not because Scripture said he was God, not because Yeshua said he was God, but because of their encounters with him (their perception of him). Below is my corrected view based on Scripture.
View attachment 4007

How'd you do that!

I know what you believe GP.
You believe the spirit is the spirit of God, as stated many times in the O.T.,,,
not a separate person. But what if that spirit BECAME a separate person?

Also, you believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the annointed One, the Son of God, the Sent one, the authorized One...

And all of the above are true. It would just mean that God never changed to make Himself be understood by us. Can't God turn His Word into a visible person so we could get to know Him (Yahweh)?

Can't God turn HIS SPIRIT into a person so that we could get to know Him (Yahweh)? And even "use" the Holy Spirit to be closer to God?

It's not far-fetched for God to want Himself to be known. And whatever comes from Him must surely be of the same essence...If I make a human, wouldn't God make a God from something that is WITHIN Him and existed from all time WITH God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said, "I Am!"
And they tried to stone him for claiming to be God!

Two lines but they say a lot. Good point.
The Jews understood what Jesus was saying.
They had no doubt.

In His hometown of Nazareth, Jesus read the O.T. scroll one Sabbath and this is what He read:

Luke 4:18
18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus was chased away from the town; people were so outraged that they wanted to throw him down a cliff.

In John chapter 10 the Jews ask Jesus if He is the awaited Messiah. He answers that the works He does bear witness of who He is, but he tells the crowd that they do not believe Him.

Jesus tells them that He and the Father are One.
He tells them that HE will give eternal life to those who believe.

In verse 31, the Jews pick up stones to stone Him, because they understand that He is saying he's sent from God and is One with God.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know someone that knows both Hebrew and Greek (koine).
The question is if the statements can be found in the original language...probably yes.

Will be doing this in a few days. Checking it out, I mean.

a Lex will show you this, and scribes are the ones who made that into "God" as Gadar says, as many others have also pointed out

 

[justbyfaith]

Two lines but they say a lot. Good point.
The Jews understood what Jesus was saying.
They had no doubt.

In His hometown of Nazareth, Jesus read the O.T. scroll one Sabbath and this is what He read:

Luke 4:18
18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus was chased away from the town; people were so outraged that they wanted to throw him down a cliff.

In John chapter 10 the Jews ask Jesus if He is the awaited Messiah. He answers that the works He does bear witness of who He is, but he tells the crowd that they do not believe Him.

Jesus tells them that He and the Father are One.
He tells them that HE will give eternal life to those who believe.

In verse 31, the Jews pick up stones to stone Him, because they understand that He is saying he's sent from God and is One with God.

Not only that; but the exact wording of scripture in John 10:33 is...

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So in their minds, He is not only claiming to be sent from God and one with God; He is claiming to be God.