The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Titus]

We see that they had to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the Spirit. See Acts 19:1-7

Wrong.
These Ephesians had to be baptized again because Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism.
John's baptism had already ended when these Ephesians were baptized into John's baptism by Apollos.

No one that was baptized into John's baptism correctly, had to be re-baptized.
Give another Biblical example of someone who had to be rebaptized after they were baptized by John? You will not find one!

Acts 18:26,
-So Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, the took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Apollos did not know John's baptism had ended when he baptized the Ephesians into John's baptism
Apollos did not know about Jesus' baptism. This is why Paul had to teach them they needed to be re-baptized into the gospel baptism of Jesus,

Acts19:3-4
-And Paul said to them, Into what then were ye baptized? So they said, Into John's baptism
-Then Paul said , Indeed John baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on JESUS who would come after John, that is on Christ.
-when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Jesus had already died and ressurected and gone back to His Father in heaven long ago.
This is Acts 19! They were obviously baptized into John's baptism under the wrong covenant. Jesus new covenant, new testament was in force when they were baptized wrongly.

Jesus died before the two thieves died.

Luke 19:33
”But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Yes, and that is irrelevant.
The reason why is because Jesus saved the thief on the cross when He was still ALIVE.
Bible Highlighter, how many dead men speak?
Jesus said when he was alive, Today you will be with Me in paradise.
You see Jesus saved the thief under the old covenant not the new.

This proves that when the good thief died, He was entering into the New Covenant.
For Jesus’ death began the New Covenant

No way,
Jesus saved him when Jesus was alive. Thief saved before Jesus died!
Saved under the old covenant.

When did Jesus take the thief's sins away?
Obviously when Jesus tells you, you are saved, RIGHT THEN AND THERE YOU ARE SAVED.
Jesus' new covenant only began after His death.
Therefore for The Thief to been saved under Jesus' new covenant, Jesus would had to have died then come back from the dead and say to the thief on the cross, today you will be with Me in paradise.

Hebrews 9:16-17,
- For where there is a testament, there must also be the death of the testator
-For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no  power at all while the testator lives.
Jesus was alive not dead when he told the thief he would be with Him in paradise.

 

[face2face]

No way,
Jesus saved him when Jesus was alive. Thief saved before Jesus died!
Saved under the old covenant.

When did Jesus take the thief's sins away?
Obviously when Jesus tells you, you are saved, RIGHT THEN AND THERE YOU ARE SAVED.
Jesus' new covenant only began after His death.

This is an interesting idea though the old covenant was ratified by the new, so those under the old are all good.

The thief asks to be remembered when Christ returns in his Kingdom and Christ gives him an answer right then and there! Heb expression: “I say unto thee today”

As has just been said: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion. Heb 3:15
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:7.

Notice how Jesus states "with me"....the thief accepted he is in the same condemnation justly! “with” one suffering unjustly.

He had identified with his sufferings...If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;

It is true the new covenant and eternal redemption was obtained by Jesus after his resurrection!

Hebrews 9:12

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

His resurrection and entering into Heaven (Thee Most Holy Place) having obtain redemption himself, and for us.

F2F

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong.
These Ephesians had to be baptized again because Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism.
John's baptism had already ended when these Ephesians were baptized into John's baptism by Apollos.

No one that was baptized into John's baptism correctly, had to be re-baptized.
Give another Biblical example of someone who had to be rebaptized after they were baptized by John? You will not find one!

Acts 18:26,
-So Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, the took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Apollos did not know John's baptism had ended when he baptized the Ephesians into John's baptism
Apollos did not know about Jesus' baptism. This is why Paul had to teach them they needed to be re-baptized into the gospel baptism of Jesus,

Acts19:3-4
-And Paul said to them, Into what then were ye baptized? So they said, Into John's baptism
-Then Paul said , Indeed John baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on JESUS who would come after John, that is on Christ.
-when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Jesus had already died and ressurected and gone back to His Father in heaven long ago.
This is Acts 19! They were obviously baptized into John's baptism under the wrong covenant. Jesus new covenant, new testament was in force when they were baptized wrongly.

Paul said that they were baptized by John in Acts 19:4. But again. You are missing the point. These disciples were re-baptized in Jesus name. This again proves that one needs to be baptized properly under the New Covenant (seeing John’s baptism was Old Covenant). The thief died when the New Covenant was in force. Yes, he was initially saved under the Old Covenant, but he was saved in death while under the New Covenant. So if he was alive and baptized by John’s baptism, he would have to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus. This shows that John’s baptism would not be sufficient seeing the thief died while the New Covenant was in effect.

Yes, and that is irrelevant.
The reason why is because Jesus saved the thief on the cross when He was still ALIVE.
Bible Highlighter, how many dead men speak?
Jesus said when he was alive, Today you will be with Me in paradise.
You see Jesus saved the thief under the old covenant not the new.


No way,
Jesus saved him when Jesus was alive. Thief saved before Jesus died!
Saved under the old covenant.

When did Jesus take the thief's sins away?
Obviously when Jesus tells you, you are saved, RIGHT THEN AND THERE YOU ARE SAVED.
Jesus' new covenant only began after His death.
Therefore for The Thief to been saved under Jesus' new covenant, Jesus would had to have died then come back from the dead and say to the thief on the cross, today you will be with Me in paradise.

Hebrews 9:16-17,
- For where there is a testament, there must also be the death of the testator
-For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no  power at all while the testator lives.
Jesus was alive not dead when he told the thief he would be with Him in paradise.

Jesus says He will be with the thief that very day in Paradise. This would be in the time of the New Covenant. The thief was unique in that he lived in both Covenants. His salvation did not disappear when Jesus died. The thief never was fully saved by the Old way. The thief was saved in both the old and new covenants. But he died into the New Covenant.

 

[Titus]

Paul said that they were baptized by John in Acts 19:4.

Wrong, Paul said no such thing
Acts 19:4,
-Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus.
Paul made no reference to the Ephesians in verse 4! Paul made no mention of anyone in particular.

This is Acts 19!!!! Jesus died, ressurected and went back to His Father long ago.
The Ephesians were mistakenly baptized by Apollos into John's baptism during the new covenant,
When John's baptism had ended. Read all of Acts 18. Then read Acts 19:1-7.
Their teacher was Apollos. Apollos went to the Ephesians in Ephesus.
Acts 18:24-25,
-Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures came to Ephesus.
is-this man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John
-So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Keep reading right into the next chapter.
The context of the latter chapter of Acts 18 flows right into the beginning of Acts 19.
Apollos is in Ephesus. He only knows about John's baptism
Next chapter, Paul goes to Ephesus, who comes across some Jesus believing Ephesians that guess what? Only know about the baptism of John!!!! Hmm? Seems awfully like those Ephesians were taught by a man that knew nothing about Jesus' baptism since they also knew nothing of Jesus' baptism.

Its obvious Apollos was their teacher and baptizer.

When was John the Baptist in the city of Ephesus? Give book, chapter, verse.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong, Paul said no such thing
Acts 19:4,
-Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus.
Paul made no reference to the Ephesians in verse 4! Paul made no mention of anyone in particular.

Acts 19:4 KJV
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Paul said John baptized them with the baptism of repentance. This is what the text says.

This is Acts 19!!!! Jesus died, ressurected and went back to His Father long ago.
The Ephesians were mistakenly baptized by Apollos into John's baptism during the new covenant,
When John's baptism had ended. Read all of Acts 18. Then read Acts 19:1-7.
Their teacher was Apollos. Apollos went to the Ephesians in Ephesus.
Acts 18:24-25,
-Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures came to Ephesus.
is-this man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John
-So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Keep reading right into the next chapter.
The context of the latter chapter of Acts 18 flows right into the beginning of Acts 19.
Apollos is in Ephesus. He only knows about John's baptism
Next chapter, Paul goes to Ephesus, who comes across some Jesus believing Ephesians that guess what? Only know about the baptism of John!!!! Hmm? Seems awfully like those Ephesians were taught by a man that knew nothing about Jesus' baptism since they also knew nothing of Jesus' baptism.

I just believe Acts 19:4.

Its obvious Apollos was their teacher and baptizer.

When was John the Baptist in the city of Ephesus? Give book, chapter, verse.

He wasn’t. He merely baptized them when he was alive and not in prison yet.

 

[face2face]

Wrong, Paul said no such thing
Acts 19:4,
-Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after John, that is on Christ Jesus.
Paul made no reference to the Ephesians in verse 4! Paul made no mention of anyone in particular.

This is Acts 19!!!! Jesus died, ressurected and went back to His Father long ago.
The Ephesians were mistakenly baptized by Apollos into John's baptism during the new covenant,
When John's baptism had ended. Read all of Acts 18. Then read Acts 19:1-7.
Their teacher was Apollos. Apollos went to the Ephesians in Ephesus.
Acts 18:24-25,
-Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the scriptures came to Ephesus.
is-this man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John
-So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Keep reading right into the next chapter.
The context of the latter chapter of Acts 18 flows right into the beginning of Acts 19.
Apollos is in Ephesus. He only knows about John's baptism
Next chapter, Paul goes to Ephesus, who comes across some Jesus believing Ephesians that guess what? Only know about the baptism of John!!!! Hmm? Seems awfully like those Ephesians were taught by a man that knew nothing about Jesus' baptism since they also knew nothing of Jesus' baptism.

Its obvious Apollos was their teacher and baptizer.

When was John the Baptist in the city of Ephesus? Give book, chapter, verse.

Acts 19:1 "and finding certain disciples"

Like Apollos they believed in Messiah, but imperfectly (Acts 18:24). They had embraced John's doctrine that the Redeemer was about to appear (Matthew 3:11- 12) but were unaware of his identity.

It's not possible to identify those disciples as they travelled far and wide in those days!

Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. (a case in point!)

 

[mailmandan]

No. I have a family and people know me. I have Christian friends and they would not say that of me. They would not label me as a narcissist

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I shared some of your posts with my family and Christian friends and they had no arguments against narcissist and they also added 'self promoter' along with 'self righteous.' The truth hurts, but sometimes people really need to hear it.

Even my own writings here at ChristianityBoard, and on Christian Forums speak for themselves (if a person really wants to know the truth and see that you are falsely accusing me).

Your writings speak for themselves alright. No false accusations on my part. Just solid rebuke.

But Jesus said, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” (Matthew 5:11-12).

There is a difference between being rebuked for good reason and being reviled, persecuted and slandered. You are no prophet.

Think. Protestants number close to 800 million to 1 billion. That’s not far behind Catholicism in numbers. In fact, when Jesus spoke of the straight gate (narrow way) He was referring to those who appeared to know Him by calling Him Lord, Lord (See Luke 13:24-25). Protestants I have encountered told me that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is also what you teach because of a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8 - which makes an excuse to sin). For I do not agree that a Christian can abide in sin on some level, and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. There are many warnings against to us believers how sin can destroy our souls (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Timothy 5:8, Galatians 5:19-21). For you try to convince me that Christians do not have to overcome sin in this life (Which runs contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1). Therefore, you believe in disobedience to God as a part of salvation. You fail to understand that the Judgment will be a righteous judgment and not an unrighteous one.

You can find Protestants who are saved and Protestants who are not saved, just as you can find saved and unsaved people in various other churches. People who appear to know Jesus by calling Him Lord, Lord, (yet Jesus NEVER knew them) are "nominal" Christians and not genuine Christians. Pseudo Christians outnumber genuine Christians by far.

Just because a believer is not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus) does not mean they are abiding in sin/promoting a license to sin/living like the devil etc.. as you would make it appear. None of us are 100% obedient to God 100% of the time which does not mean that disobedience to God is part of salvation. You seem to have more faith in your so called personal obedience to God for salvation than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. You continue to trust in self and still don't believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

This is ripping this passage out of context.
You fail to keep reading to get the whole picture.

John 3:19-21 says:
19 “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Notice verse 20. It says everyone who does evil hates the light.
So if you are doing evil, then you hate the light (Who is Jesus - John 8:12).

I interpret scripture within context. You apply your own personal eisegesis to the text. John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. *DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. In CONTRAST with verse 21, which is *DESCRIPTIVE of believers. Evil is reflected in fleeing from the light and evil deeds are done in darkness, while those who practice the truth come to the Light and good deeds are wrought in God.

Seeing you defend disobedience to God, this means you really hate the real Jesus of the Bible.

More blatant slander on your part. You are being very judgmental here.

Anyways, the point here is that belief in Jesus includes obeying Him and not doing evil.

Belief in Jesus 'results' in obeying Him and not doing evil. Belief includes faith, trust, reliance and obedience which follows is works. Just like Roman Catholics, you don't seem to make a distinction between belief/faith and works. You just infuse it all together and the end result is salvation by works/works righteousness. In your case it's 'type 2 works salvation' or 'back door works salvation.'

Again, context.
Jesus said, “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:54).

Skip back to John 4. Jesus says this.

”My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.” (John 6:34).

So the flesh or meat that Jesus is referring to in John 6:54 is doing the will of the Father.

Jesus tells us that not everyone who says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of my Father.
But Jesus will profess that He never knew them because they work iniquity (sin).

“21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:21-23).

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, oh my goodness! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works. Sound familiar?

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (pseudo Christians) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

This is in context to doing what Jesus says.

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).

So everyone who hears the sayings of Jesus and does them not, they will be likened to a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Meaning, they will not be saved).

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

So again, belief in John 6 is in context to our obedience to Jesus. Yes, we need to believe and trust in Him, but this belief also includes that we obey Jesus and not disobey Him.

The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works, just as you do now.

Speaking of the resurrection:

Jesus says in John 5:28-29 that they who have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they who have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29).

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

In Matthew 13:41-42, we learn that Jesus will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS Kingdom all do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This is why Jesus said that the slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (John 8:34-35).

You continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is always the same, works righteousness and sinless perfection.

Yes, because you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that you will always have sin in your life in some way or that you must sin again in the future at some point and yet you are still saved (When that verses is not teaching that).

1 John 1:8 is in the present tense, which does not mean that we sin 24/7, but it does mean that if we say that we have no sin at all (never sin at all) in the present tense, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This verse should really strike a nerve with you.

You also mock the idea of Christians overcoming sin in this life even when the Bible teaches that we are to do that (John 5:14, John 8:11, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Overcoming sin is what Christians are to strive to do (so I don't mock striving to do just that) yet none of us are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, exactly like Jesus Christ 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10) You need to come down off your high horse and acknowledge the truth here.

Well, first it is odd that another Christian online just happened to have your same username that is unique. So it is an honest mistake that I think anyone could easily make. Anyways, generally that’s not like me to not apologize. But things have been crazy busy these last few months because my wife and I have added a another member to our family (By the grace of God and prayer). But if I missed giving you apology on that one, I will do so now. Dan. I am sorry.

Congratulations on adding another member to your family and thank you for the apology.

There is no such thing as “Type 2 Works Salvation” (A term you invented).

It's a term that I coined to describe someone who believes that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, but then ultimately also saved by works. 'Back door works salvation' is another term which describes what you teach.

The gospel calls us to Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Let the good Berean check: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13 to see the truth for themselves).

A good Berean knows that the gospel does not call us to 'type 2 works salvation' and eisegesis.

 

[mailmandan]

Christians are in a Sanctification Process (2 Corinthians 7:1). But they need to die in a righteous state (Which is doing the will of God - 1 Thessalonians 4:3). For Hebrews 10:36 says, “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” 1 Timothy 6:12 says fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life.

Our sanctification process has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Righteousness is ONLY found in Christ (Romans 4:5-6) and not in delusional sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

There is a difference between God's will for us to BECOME saved (John 6:40) and God's will for us AFTER we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) You mix it all together and the end result is "type 2 works salvation/works righteousness through the back door.' This remains your achilles heel which keeps you from trusting in Christ as your ALL-SUFFICIENT Savior. You need to trust in Christ as your ULTIMATE Savior and not merely as your 'initial' Savior only.

Not at all. I don’t trust in myself. That is where you do error. I am merely following what God says in His Word.

You absolutely trust in self/self performance/self righteousness and you demonstrate this over and over again. You are just unable to see it because you are blinded by your own personal eisegesis.

In Luke 18:9-14, the Pharisee did not trust in God’s grace like the Tax Collector did. I believe in being saved by God’s grace unlike him.

You only believe in being saved by God's grace "initially" but not ultimately. You put a lot of faith in your works/performance/personal holiness, just like the Pharisee. I don't hear you saying to God, "have mercy on me a sinner." All I hear from you is look what I did/look what I'm doing.

I also believe all good works that a believer does is the Lord doing the good work through the believer. For Jesus says you can do nothing without Him.

Although God works in us, we are still participants in doing these good works. Believers are not idle in doing good works and we are saved FOR/UNTO good works, but NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

So again… this is not the same situation as the Pharisee.

Oh it has it's striking similarities. Difference in style, but same in substance. Trusting in self.

Plus, Romans 3:27 basically says boasting is excluded when it comes to the Law of faith. Why? Because you cannot boast in what God is telling you to do by faith. Boasting is only your own man made works that God did not tell you to do.

We cannot boast in works IN GENERAL (including good works which are produced out of faith) and we are not saved by works IN GENERAL (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) which is not merely limited to specific works of the law. Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works done out of faith could a Christian accomplish which are 'completely detached' from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

You have to obey the call of the gospel which is in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. If not, your not going to make it.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” If we have not obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) then you're not going to make it.

For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14).

The gospel is not salvation through personal 'holiness/sinless perfection' or 'type 2 works salvation.' That is a 'different' gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14) To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy" and without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God and the ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God which puts things into perspective here.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So obvious it needs no explanation. Well, should not need explanation.

All the belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person, (Lk 13:3; Rom 2:2-5)

 

[Titus]

The false gospel of Sola Fide, attempts to define saving faith as being alone. Alone means apart from any doing or action taken by the believer. This defining faith absent of doing, taking action is causing a division between Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Sola Fide today is a doctrine of salvation by belief defined as in Jesus Himself only and no action taken towards His commandments(gospel of Grace).

So the phrase in modern times goes: "Give me the man, not His plan( gospel)

This phrase is accurate in the Salvation through faith alone in Jesus(person) but no works(obedience) done in His gospel.

You cannot be saved by Jesus and ignore, reject His gospel.
You must believe in Jesus and His gospel to be saved.

Seperation of Gods joined union occurs alot in today's false doctrines

"We only need Jesus not the church to be saved" Seperation of what God has joined together!

"1Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel, nothing else is essential" Seperation of what God joined together!

Give me the man(Personal Jesus, not His plan(gospel commandments) Seperation of what God joined together.

Mark 10:9,
-Therefore what God has joined together, let not man seperate.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 is not in a vacuum.
Faith onlyist's choose which parts of the gospel fit their churches teaching and exclude Jesus' plan for man where it is contradictory to their church doctrine.

Gospel of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Gospel of Christ, Mark 16:15-16

-Moreover brethren I declare unto you the gospel...
-Go into all the world and preach the gospel...
Jesus made it clear to be saved one must believe in Jesus and His word(gospel) to be saved.
John 5:24,
-Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life...

Did Jesus define saving faith as belief alone in Him? Or is Jesus teaching faith that saves is faith that believes in Him and obeys His word(gospel) ?

Hebrews 5:8-9,
-and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Faith that saves according to Gods word is Faith that obeys.

Men like Danthemailman seperate what God joined together.
-Therefore what God has joined together, let not man seperate.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I shared some of your posts with my family and Christian friends and they had no arguments against narcissist and they also added 'self promoter' along with 'self righteous.' The truth hurts, but sometimes people really need to hear it.

Okay. First off, I never boasted in myself or my own personal works or how I am great (Which is what a narcissist would do). I have stated many times that I am nothing and Christ is everything (and I actually believe that with all my heart).
That’s the opposite of self promotion.
So you are still falsely accusing me of being a narcissist.

Second, no offense, I love you, your family and your friends in the name of Jesus Christ, but they have not likely researched at length what a narcissist actually is. I say this because when I read various articles on narcissists (as I have done in the past several times before), they do not give such a simplistic definition.

According to one article:

“Narcissists believe that they're better than everyone else and expect recognition as such.​

They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. And when they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. They are the undisputed star and everyone else is at best a bit player.”​

Source:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - HelpGuide.org

Narcissism involves self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, and a lack of empathy. These tips can help you recognize and cope with a narcissist.

www.helpguide.org

Please show me where I have done this on the forums. If not, you are falsely accusing me.
I also find lying to be a sin that would condemn my soul. So why would I do that?
Where on the forums have I uplifted myself as the star and everyone else is a bit player?
As far as I can recall, my promotion is God’s Holy Word and Jesus Christ.

According to the article:

“A narcissist's sense of superiority is like a balloon that gradually loses air without a steady stream of applause and recognition to keep it inflated. The occasional compliment is not enough. Narcissists need constant food for their ego, so they surround themselves with people who are willing to cater to their obsessive craving for affirmation. These relationships are very one-sided. It's all about what the admirer can do for the narcissist, never the other way around.”​

Source:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - HelpGuide.org

Narcissism involves self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, and a lack of empathy. These tips can help you recognize and cope with a narcissist.

www.helpguide.org

Okay. Where on the forums did I seek for people to give me recognition or to give me compliments? If you cannot find anything, then you are falsely accusing me.

According to the article:

”Narcissists never develop the ability to identify with the feelings of others—to put themselves in other people's shoes. In other words, they lack empathy. In many ways, they view the people in their lives as objects—there to serve their needs. As a consequence, they don't think twice about taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends.”​

Source:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - HelpGuide.org

Narcissism involves self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, and a lack of empathy. These tips can help you recognize and cope with a narcissist.

www.helpguide.org

Again, I cannot say this describes me because I do honestly think about the needs of other people think many times and I try to meet those needs with the love of Jesus Christ. So again, to say I am a narcissist is an insult and a false accusation.

In fact, the article mentions how there are different types of narcissists; But the article addresses the a typical narcissist.

Three, I am not promoting myself, but I am promoting God’s Holy Word and what I believe it says. I again, realize that I am nothing and I cannot do anything without Jesus Christ (John 15:5). I plant, and another waters, but it is God that gives the increase. All glory and praise should go to the Lord Jesus Christ and never to me or any other created human being. I also do not believe in self righteousness as if it is my own personal righteousness separate from the LORD. I believe only God is good, and that any good a believer does, it is God doing the good work through them. So all praise should go to the LORD Jesus. It’s why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus Christ. Works are only needed as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God’s grace) because that is what God’s Word plainly teaches. It has nothing to do with me. I did not write the Bible. God did. Let all that has breath, praise the Lord for His good ways that He teaches us.

Four, your family and friends like you and so they are not unbiased and they are likely to defend you (So as not to cause any disagreement). If you really want to get an unbiased viewpoint, send my writings to professionals who know human behavior and who do not believe as you do and they have no friendly relationship with you. An unbiased viewpoint will help you to see better. But again, I challenge you to find where I promoted myself continually outside of Jesus Christ. This you will not find. So to say I promote myself is simply a false accusation. My focus is God’s Word.

Your writings speak for themselves alright. No false accusations on my part. Just solid rebuke.

Again, if you cannot point out exactly where in my posts to support your false accusation, then it is simply a hollow claim.

You are no prophet.

Where did I say I was a prophet?
Where did I predict the future outside of what the Bible says?
I actually believe the Bible alone is sufficient for prophecy.
I don’t believe the gift of prophecy in the church has continued (But I don’t want to make a blanket ban on all Christians and condemn myself. So I do leave room that I could be wrong). But I prefer to stick only with the Bible as my source for prophecy or understanding future events. But my focus is not really Eschatology. My focus in life is to glorify God’s grace to others in this life and to lead them to obey the good ways of the LORD (to glorify Christ and not myself).

You can find Protestants who are saved and Protestants who are not saved, just as you can find saved and unsaved people in various other churches. People who appear to know Jesus by calling Him Lord, Lord, (yet Jesus NEVER knew them) are "nominal" Christians and not genuine Christians. Pseudo Christians outnumber genuine Christians by far.

Again, if what you say is true, then no works or holy living should play a part in salvation if they are not required for salvation (Otherwise it would be salvation by works). Even if you claim that a change in a Christian’s life (doing good works, and not practicing sin) is not salvific in and of themselves alone, and it is faith only in Jesus that saves, it would not be a consistent model that works or makes any sense. If a change is a requirement of a true genuine Christian, then that change is a part of salvation. You have to promote that change as a part of salvation. If not, then… you are going against the change in a backhanded way and double speaking. But of course we had this discussion many times before and you don’t seem to understand that your belief here is a contradiction.

Just because a believer is not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus) does not mean they are abiding in sin/promoting a license to sin/living like the devil etc.. as you would make it appear.

Yes it is a promotion of sin. Because if you are wrong on your interpretation on 1 John 1:8, then you would be turning God’s grace into a license to sin. It only took one sin to separate Adam from God and for the fall of mankind to happen. To say you must sin again because of 1 John 1:8 is turning God’s grace into a license to sin. Even the context of 1 John 1:8 does not support your viewpoint. If it did, then John would talk about how we believers cannot help but to be controlled by our sin nature at times our whole life, and how we must admit to others this sin nature will be with us until death (or how we must sin again occasionally) or we are in deception. But that’s not what John is saying in context. John tells us to “sin not” (1 John 2:1), which would be an impossibility in your belief.

None of us are 100% obedient to God 100% of the time which does not mean that disobedience to God is part of salvation. You seem to have more faith in your so called personal obedience to God for salvation than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. You continue to trust in self and still don't believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

CONTINUED...

Again, it’s not about trust in myself. I believe God does the good work through me and any good done in my life I seek to give Him the praise and glory and not myself. It’s all about the LORD and not me. I did not write the Bible. Again, Galatians 6:8-9 says that we must sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life. This sowing to the Spirit is well doing. If we are not sowing to the Spirit in well doing, we are not going to make it into the Kingdom. It’s just that simple. But Galatians 6:8-9 is not a popular passage to preach among Belief Alone Salvationists these days.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I interpret scripture within context. You apply your own personal eisegesis to the text. John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. *DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. In CONTRAST with verse 21, which is *DESCRIPTIVE of believers. Evil is reflected in fleeing from the light and evil deeds are done in darkness, while those who practice the truth come to the Light and good deeds are wrought in God.

The King James Bible says, ”every one that doeth evil hateth the light” (John 3:20).

The word “practice” is the wrong translation because generally (not always) those who use the word practice in 1 John 3 from Modern Bibles are doing so as an attempt to justify the idea that a Christian must sin again on occasion as per a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8. In other words, God does not want you to justify even one sin or say you must sin again. God wants you to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16).

More blatant slander on your part. You are being very judgmental here.

Belief in Jesus 'results' in obeying Him and not doing evil. Belief includes faith, trust, reliance and obedience which follows is works. Just like Roman Catholics, you don't seem to make a distinction between belief/faith and works. You just infuse it all together and the end result is salvation by works/works righteousness. In your case it's 'type 2 works salvation' or 'back door works salvation.'

This again is a contradiction in your belief. If you believe that works and holy living do not save but they are indicative of a saving faith (that trusts in the finished work of the cross), then you must conclude that works and holy living is a part of salvation because you cannot have a saving faith in the finished work of the cross without these things (for a believer who lives out their faith). For even you will admit that a believer who does not have any good works, and who is practicing sin is not saved. Therefore, you refute yourself in that these things are not a part of salvation.

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, oh my goodness! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works. Sound familiar?

Catholics are working iniquity because they are into idolatry (statue worship), and necromancy. So no doubt they will hear these words unless they repent. But make no mistake. Jesus is not saying that to do good works is why they were cast out in Matthew 7. Jesus said that they worked iniquity (Which is sin). What kind of sin? It’s not doing what Jesus said (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (pseudo Christians) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. Hence, workers of iniquity. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

When you look to the Son, you are looking to EVERYTHING Jesus told us to believe and do.
To obey Jesus is to believe and or look to Him.
How do you see Jesus in the Bible?
Do you ignore the plain reading of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30?
Do you ignore the plain reading in Luke 10:25-28?

After we are saved by God’s grace, a believer needs to seek to have good works as part of salvation (as a part of God’s will).
Everything Jesus said was by what the Father told Him to say (See: John 12:49).
So when Jesus told us about how we must help the poor in this life or we will not make into the Kingdom and go away into punishment, He was relaying the words of God the Father (or His will For our lives).

In fact, doing good works glorifies our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16).

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

Yes, eternal life is to KNOW God.
How do you truly know the LORD according to Scripture?

1 John 2:3 says,
”And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

1 John 2:4 says,
”He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

CONTINUED...

Believers must trust in Jesus for salvation first and His grace first. Nobody can do good works alone without first being saved by God’s grace. But Matthew 7:26-27 makes it clear that everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. You can have all the belief in Jesus to save you in the world, but if you do not do what Jesus says, then it will not matter. You will have built your house upon the sand ripe for a storm to destroy it.

 

[face2face]

1 John 1:8 is the second test of true discipleship in this section of Scripture and it starts with the words "If we say".

It is possible to claim a false sanctity, in which we deceive ourselves!

How so?

Like many Christians who are caught up with angels sinning and eternal evil spirits and all types of mythological creatures of darkness in which they profess to operate in God's realm, most Christians fail to recognize the true nature of flesh, by which we are shown to not be honest with ourselves.

If you read 1 John 1 you will notice how these various tests reveal a deterioration of attitude. If we fail in the first test, we are proved to be liars; if we fail to pass the second test we are shown to be self deceived; but if we fail the third test (1 John1:10) we make God a liar!

Be honest, can you see the progression here? But where is it leading us and to what truth?

What if we say "We have no sin?" John is referring to the individual who claims that he is not related to sin, not to the one who says that he has not sinned!

The self-deceived declare that they have "no sin," that is, that they are not related to sin in any sense.

John is referring to those who delude themselves by failing to recognise the weakness of the flesh. I've seen first hand in this forum many who believe there is inherent goodness in the flesh, that mankind has an inner light that reveals truth, or they claim that the unenlightened conscience is competent to guide a person in matters of conduct or belief.

It's not found in all Scripture such a teaching! It is elementary to a walk in light to recognise the weakness of human nature, the evil tendency of flesh unenlightened by the Word, for such understanding will teach us to guard against it (2 John 7).

2 John 7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

John is fully cognizant of what falsely accusers (devil) us against God and its not supernatural evil but the flesh nature we bare.

Hence why he states "We deceive ourselves" —

There are two basic teachings in Scripture

1. The nature of flesh
2. How God is revealed through it (flesh).

The former teaches us what we are; the latter reveals what we can become.

If we fail to recognize the first, or to acknowledge the necessity of the second, we deceive ourselves.

I have debated in this forum for so many months now and not one Christian can speak to the flesh; to Christ's flesh or to how God gave victory through it. It's odd that Christians debate who will be saved or how they will be saved but they fail to look into these 3 tests of discipleship to maybe find, they all make God a liar.

These things will be revealed in the proper time but you get a sneak peak before he comes!

What is left if we deny Johns truth?

"And the truth is not in us"

Here is the truth of the matter:

You can maintain that you have never committed sin, and be ignorant of the truth as well as of real nature of flesh (Rom. 3:23).

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus"

In the same way, according to the obvious meaning of this passage, a believer who declares that he is wholly sanctified, and lives without any sin, shows that he is deceived in regard to themself, and that the truth in this respect is not in him.

He may understand other doctrines (yeah yeah), but he is astray on this basic fact!

Hope that is not speaking to any of us here.

(edit) what follows is equally important "If we confess our sins" (well, well, well another test!)

F2F

 

[Gospel Believer]

Wrong.
These Ephesians had to be baptized again because Apollos was ignorant of Jesus' baptism.
John's baptism had already ended when these Ephesians were baptized into John's baptism by Apollos.

No one that was baptized into John's baptism correctly, had to be re-baptized.
Give another Biblical example of someone who had to be rebaptized after they were baptized by John? You will not find one!

Acts 18:26,
-So Apollos began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, the took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Apollos did not know John's baptism had ended when he baptized the Ephesians into John's baptism
Apollos did not know about Jesus' baptism. This is why Paul had to teach them they needed to be re-baptized into the gospel baptism of Jesus,

Acts19:3-4
-And Paul said to them, Into what then were ye baptized? So they said, Into John's baptism
-Then Paul said , Indeed John baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on JESUS who would come after John, that is on Christ.
-when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Jesus had already died and ressurected and gone back to His Father in heaven long ago.
This is Acts 19! They were obviously baptized into John's baptism under the wrong covenant. Jesus new covenant, new testament was in force when they were baptized wrongly.

Yes, and that is irrelevant.
The reason why is because Jesus saved the thief on the cross when He was still ALIVE.
Bible Highlighter, how many dead men speak?
Jesus said when he was alive, Today you will be with Me in paradise.
You see Jesus saved the thief under the old covenant not the new.


No way,
Jesus saved him when Jesus was alive. Thief saved before Jesus died!
Saved under the old covenant.

When did Jesus take the thief's sins away?
Obviously when Jesus tells you, you are saved, RIGHT THEN AND THERE YOU ARE SAVED.
Jesus' new covenant only began after His death.
Therefore for The Thief to been saved under Jesus' new covenant, Jesus would had to have died then come back from the dead and say to the thief on the cross, today you will be with Me in paradise.

Hebrews 9:16-17,
- For where there is a testament, there must also be the death of the testator
-For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no  power at all while the testator lives.
Jesus was alive not dead when he told the thief he would be with Him in paradise.

The Thief merely did what EVERY Saved man must do—— he did the “ Will Of The Father” ......and what was that “Will” you ask? The Will Of The Father is to “ BELIEVE in the One that He sent”......Salvation came hard—- it cost God His Son and it cost His Son his Life .....he could NOT have made it any easier for poor, Lost Sinners like us , though.....All we have to do is TRUST GOD......God is not looking for Perfection—-Do you expect Perfection from” Your” Children? God is surrounded by Perfection with Jesus, the Holy Spirit , and with Angels that never miss a beat.....he’s looking for Trust .....got any?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Greek words for "pistis" (faith) and "pisteuo" (believe) are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. Now this belief/faith does result in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works, just as you do now.

It is true that Jesus is trying to get these men to believe first. I believe that the “work of God to believe” is God illuminating our understanding of the gospel message so as to either accept it or reject it of our own free will. This belief starts off as a belief alone, but it does not remain that way because there are eventual works of faith and holy conduct involved in a faith that is lived out. Here is an illustration I created to hopefully help folks understand what is going on in John 6:28-29 (Comparing it in light of the rest of the Bible).

God opens hearts for us to hear His Word to believe.

In Acts 16:14, we read:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jesus opened the understanding of the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:25).

Paul recounting his conversion was told by the Lord the following words:

"17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’" (Acts 26:17-18) (NKJV).

Anyways, Pisteuō (Strong’s G4100) when used in John 3:36 for the English word “believeth” is compared to “believeth not” (apeitheō) (Strong’s G544).

John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not.” In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

But like I said before, Jesus also said that we are to eat of his flesh and drink of His blood. Back in John chapter 4, Jesus made it clear that His meat (flesh) is to do the will of the Father. This was obviously in context to obeying the Father and not by Jesus having a belief alone in the Father (with no action involved).

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Again, this is circular reasoning that leads to works salvation. You are trying to secretly back end in works for salvation without really saying that it is works for salvation. The only way your belief can be consistent in saying that belief in Jesus alone + nothing else saves is to say that no works of any kind are needed ever in a believer’s life as a part of the salvation equation. Even if the works were not salvific in and of themselves, if they are necessary to show a true saving faith, then by default, works are a part of God’s plan of salvation because you cannot have good works for a faith lived out even in your rule book.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved.

While there is a change in the new birth that is different from those who are under the control of the wicked one, that does not mean we are slaves to righteousness automatically unless we choose that path with God. Otherwise, why would 2 Corinthians 7:1 be in our Bible?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

Its focused on what they did and not just a belief alone as you claim that is what saves.
This is where you get tripped up, my friend.

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"


You continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is always the same, works righteousness and sinless perfection.

You mention secular worldly sayings as if that somehow proves you are correct. The real way to prove you are right is by quoting the context and supporting cross references. Of course I have provided cross references like Galatians 6:8-9 that refutes your belief. Granted, you may offered an explanation before, and it is possible I may have missed it (Because you offer many lengthy posts in a short amount of time that makes it difficult to reply to along with other people’s replies), but if you have the time, please offer or re-explain this passage from your belief. Anyways, Galatians 6:8-9 says, “…he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” So you have to sow to the Spirit by well doing (doing good) to reap everlasting life. It’s not some automatic thing by believing in Jesus for salvation. This has to be read in balance to what you read in John 5:29. The Bible also tells you to…

1. Continue in the faith.
2. Continue in God’s grace.
3. Continue in his goodness.
4. Keep yourself in the love of God.

Why would Scripture say these things to us if belief alone in Jesus was the only instruction to solve the issues of these things? It makes no sense unless you are taking the word "believe" beyond how the Bible describes it.

John 5:24 also says we are to hear and believe as a part of the promise of salvation. This word hear means to obey as we see in John 8:47, and Acts 3:23. For the rest of Scripture testifies that we must obey Jesus to make it into His Kingdom (See again: Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27).

1 John 1:8 is in the present tense, which does not mean that we sin 24/7, but it does mean that if we say that we have no sin at all (never sin at all) in the present tense, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This verse should really strike a nerve with you.

It should strike a nerve for you if you believe God is good. God cannot be good if He allows us to have a mindset that we must sin again at some point in the future before we die. Is God not strong enough to stop us from sinning? Again, you have to deal with verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Galatians 5:24. 1 John 2:4 also is also problematic for you. These verses should not be in Scripture if what you believe is true. You technically are not keeping God’s commands if you also say 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that you must sin again at some future date (even though it is not practicing sin - as if that makes your future justification to sin any better).

Overcoming sin is what Christians are to strive to do (so I don't mock striving to do just that) yet none of us are sinless,

But you are seeking to do the impossible because you know you will not win. But we know that with God nothing is impossible.

We know that in the OT, God helped the Israelites fight against odds in battle and helped the Israelites to win. What should have been impossible was possible with God. Again, Jesus basically says he that sins is a slave to sin and that this slave will not abide in the house (house of Christ) forever (John 8:34-35). We see this described to us in Matthew 13:41-42. Jesus’ angels will gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend and who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (Lake of Fire). So if you are making claims you must sin again, your not going to make it. I mean… why take the gamble? What if you are wrong? You have to admit it can be interpreted or read this way. But I will tell you why you reject it. It’s because you don’t want it to be true (Even if it is true). I say this because most do not see the verses I am talking about here. They will do backflip twists to undo what the Bible plainly says.

without fault or defect, flawless, exactly like Jesus Christ 100% of the time. (1 John 1:8-10) You need to come down off your high horse and acknowledge the truth here.

We AGREE on 1 John 1:10. We both agree that we have sinned in the past, and so we both will say that 1 John 1:10 is a warning to the brethren not to say that we have never sinned in the past. But this should give you a big clue here. It is a denial of sin’s existence. 1 John 1:8 is a person saying that sin does not exist for them when they do sin. We see this in Scripture.

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

Your view defends the idea that you must sin again (occasional sin and not practicing sin), and that is somehow the good path.

But Isaiah 5:20 says,
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Malachi 2:17 AMP says,
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”

Job 17:12 NASB says,
“They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.”

Congratulations on adding another member to your family and thank you for the apology.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

It's a term that I coined to describe someone who believes that we are merely "initially" saved by grace through faith, but then ultimately also saved by works. 'Back door works salvation' is another term which describes what you teach.

I can say the same for you in that you teach back door works salvation because you are not consistent like the Hyper Grace crowd is when it comes to explaining the works issue. The Hyper Grace Christian holds no punches in saying that you don’t need any works of any kind and you can live like the devil and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This is true Belief Alone Salvationism (That is consistent).

A good Berean knows that the gospel does not call us to 'type 2 works salvation' and eisegesis.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is talking about Sanctification of the Spirit as in reference to living holy because the verse before it and the verses after it defend both a belief and works. Verse 12 is the polar opposite of verse 13. Verses 15-16 talk about faith and works. But again, you can see other verses talking about Sanctification as a part of our salvation in Galatians 6:8-9, and Romans 8:13. But I am sure you have an ace up your sleeve to undo these verses because you don’t like what they say plainly.

Sorry. That's just how I see it from my perspective.

May the Lord bless you (even if we disagree strongly on God's Word).

 

[Gospel Believer]

All the belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person, (Lk 13:3; Rom 2:2-5)

If you take a guy who never trusted the Gospel ( 1Cor15:1-4) and he “changes his mind “ ( Greek “ Metanoia” —- the Word translated as “ Repentance” ) about it, he has done All the Repenting that he ever NEED do in order to get Saved......all of that “ do do this and don’t do that” stuff ? That’s the stuff that FOLLOWS Salvation as God “ finishes the good work that He started”.......God Promises to ‘ Strengthen us until the Day Of Judgement” and have us to be “ Without Blame” on that Day.....

 

[Gospel Believer]

Paul said that they were baptized by John in Acts 19:4. But again. You are missing the point. These disciples were re-baptized in Jesus name. This again proves that one needs to be baptized properly under the New Covenant (seeing John’s baptism was Old Covenant). The thief died when the New Covenant was in force. Yes, he was initially saved under the Old Covenant, but he was saved in death while under the New Covenant. So if he was alive and baptized by John’s baptism, he would have to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus. This shows that John’s baptism would not be sufficient seeing the thief died while the New Covenant was in effect.


Jesus says He will be with the thief that very day in Paradise. This would be in the time of the New Covenant. The thief was unique in that he lived in both Covenants. His salvation did not disappear when Jesus died. The thief never was fully saved by the Old way. The thief was saved in both the old and new covenants. But he died into the New Covenant.

It amuses me to no end to see how some people can Complicate what God has made simple....wanna get Saved?! Simply Ask.Yeah, it really “ is “ that simple....

“ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved WILL BE Saved” ( the secret to becoming a Christian is seeing the NEED to Ask for Salvation.....it’s seeing that you are a Sinner That MUST have a Savior—- that’s why God gave the 613 Commandments ....they were given so that a person would “ shut up” and admit that they could not keep them and let those Laws accomplish their True Purpose —- Point you to the Savior....