The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

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Bible Highlighter

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It amuses me to no end to see how some people can Complicate what God has made simple....wanna get Saved! Ask.Yeah, it really “ is “ that simple....

“ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved WILL BE Saved” ( the secret to becoming a Christian is seeing the NEED to Ask for Salvation.....it’s seeing that you are a Sinner That MUST have a Savior—- that’s why God gave the 613 Commandments ....they were given so that a person would “ shut up” and admit that they could not keep them and let those Laws accomplish their True Purpose —- Point you to the Savior....
We are not under the 613 Laws of Moses. We are under the Laws of Christ. This is why you don’t understand Paul. You don‘t know which Law or works he is condemning. Acts 13:39 says you cannot be justified by the Law of Moses. Acts 15 says that Gentile Christians do not have to keep the Law of Moses (the 613) but the council did say they should keep certain laws (like not eating things that are strangled, etc.). The main issue in Acts 15 was that a group of Jews were trying to deceive Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be saved. But circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. If a person thought they had to first be circumcised to be saved, they would be bypassing the grace of God for salvation. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did when it came to speaking negatively against works and the Law. But of course I am sure you will either not read these verses (in prayer), or you will not accept what they say (Because you want a sin and still be saved type belief to be true). Everybody wants the easy way out. But the Bible tells us to STRIVE to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). This is yet another verse you don’t believe or have no real understanding on.

I say this not to wound you, but I say this in love to challenge you to dig deep into God’s Word in prayer and by accepting what it plainly says.
 

Bible Highlighter

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It amuses me to no end to see how some people can Complicate what God has made simple....wanna get Saved! Ask.Yeah, it really “ is “ that simple....

“ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved WILL BE Saved” ( the secret to becoming a Christian is seeing the NEED to Ask for Salvation.....it’s seeing that you are a Sinner That MUST have a Savior—- that’s why God gave the 613 Commandments ....they were given so that a person would “ shut up” and admit that they could not keep them and let those Laws accomplish their True Purpose —- Point you to the Savior....
Sorry. No offense. I love you in Christ. But by what you said here, this gives me the impression that you don’t need to worry about all that other filler information stuff in the Bible. You can just isolate and read and believe only those comforting verses from your own slanted point of you you like and just hold on to them and see nothing else in the Bible. But the Bible has to be read as a whole and we cannot take verses out of context to the rest of the Bible. You have to give a proper balance between those verses on believing in Jesus vs. those verses that warn us believers about sin and or unfruitfulness at the cost of our own souls.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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If you take a guy who never trusted the Gospel ( 1Cor15:1-4) and he “changes his mind “ ( Greek “ Metanoia” —- the Word translated as “ Repentance” ) about it, he has done All the Repenting that he ever NEED do in order to get Saved......all of that “ do do this and don’t do that” stuff ? That’s the stuff that FOLLOWS Salvation as God “ finishes the good work that He started”.......God Promises to ‘ Strengthen us until the Day Of Judgement” and have us to be “ Without Blame” on that Day.....
Repentance is a change of mind that requires a change in conduct in how one lives his life. One who has been doing unrighteousness must start doing righteouness else he has not repented...."whosoever (presently & continues to) doeth not righteousness is (presently & continues to be) not of God" (1 Jn 3:10). Repentance isn't something just thought about but also something done. Salvation is impossible without doing that 'stuff' called righteousness/obedience to God's will.
 

Gospel Believer

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You have to give a proper balance between those verses on believing in Jesus vs. those verses that warn us believers about sin and or unfruitfulness at the cost of our own soul


This is the essence of our disagreements......and there is certainly no doubt about it—- we are warned about sin and we are to be “ fruitful” ...but “ especially” when all verses are taken in their context , it is clear that some verses just happen to trump other ones.....For example, When the Bible says clearly that “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be Saved”, how does one argue with THAT? Whatever you throw out there that we “ Should” do or even what appears that we “ Must” do to get or stay Saved—— for God to fulfill just that ONE Promise ( and there are more just like it, for our Assurance Of Salvation) He has put the Onus for Salvation upon His Own Shoulders—— to put it rather crudely, He has put the monkey on His own back and whatever the Requirements turn out to be ( and I teach Nothing But The Blood) for Salvation , it is now up to HIM to see that the things that must happen WILL happen and if there is something that you “ can’t “ do, lest you be damned, HE will see to it that it will NOT be done.....
We do “ our” part, which is to Trust, and God will do “ His” part, which is to “ Save to the Uttermost” , ALL that will simply “ Come to Him”...... God does not expect us to save ourselves with good behavior and Fruit bearing ....anything that is required by a Him is also provided by Him—- “ Turn to me and I will Turn to you”.......” HE will finish the good work that He started” .....once again, how do you argue against THAT ? If you Trust Him , you don’t . I have chosen to Trust HIM and not ME.....that is how a wretched man like me got Saved — and STAYS Saved......as Paul said, we finish the same way we started —- FAITH ! And that I have....He takes my Faith and just like He did with Abraham —- He “ Counts” it as Righteousness ...I simply thank Him for His Grace.....
 

Gospel Believer

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. Salvation is impossible without doing that 'stuff' called righteousness/obedience to God's will.


Salvation is “ impossible” only without Grace.....the only “ Righteousness” that counts , as far as Salvation is concerned, is that Righteousness that gets *IMPUTED* to a Believer because of his or her Faith....That “Grace” That I referred to? It “ covers” anybody’s lack of Obedience once you are Saved by it —— Grace is not fair......if Grace was fair it would not be Grace—- that’s the best thing that ever happened to You or any of us—- deal with that and thank God for it....you need it MUCH more than you probably realize...
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Thy word is truth...... all verses are the truth meaning verses do not contradict each other nor does the truth of one verse cancel out the truth of another verse. It's God's truth that believing saves (John 3:16; Jn 8:24) but that does not cancel out, negate or trump other verses that teach the truth that repentance saves (Lk 13:3) confession saves (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) baptism saves (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21). Therefore to correctly understand God's word requires one examine the sum (Psa 139:17) of God's word, all the council of God (Acts 20:27) and not just a few cherry picked verses while ignoring all other verses. It's very rare that one verse exhausts all there is to know about a particular subject. When it comes to the subject of salvation there are dozens upon dozens of verses and the sum of them, all of them must be examined to have the truth of God while examine just a few fails to have God's truth.

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If "grace alone" is all that is needed to be saved then all men would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11. Yet all men will not be saved (Mt 7:13) for all will not obey Christ (Heb 5:9) further proving God's grace is CONDITIONAL not UNconditional.

Paul ends Romans 5 by saying
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Those who are dead in sin are so due to disobeying God in working unrighteousness, they have allowed sin to reign over them resulting in sin bringing forth its consequence of spiritual death in separation from God.

Yet those who are obedient to God's righteousness, those who worketh God's righteousness (Acts 10:35) have allowed God's grace to reign over them resulting in them having eternal life.

Paul reiterates similar point in Rom 6:16
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Each one of us serves one of two masters, we allow one of two masters to reign over us, we allow;
1) sin unto death (condemnation) to reign over us as our master
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation) to reign over us as our master

Again, those dead in sin are so for they do not obey God, they will not obey God's righteousness and therefore have allowed sin reign over them bringing about spiritual death. Yet those who are obedient are the ones who are made righteous allowing grace reign over them for having obeyed God's righteousness.

Paul points out in Rom 6:1-2 just because the Christian is saved by grace does not give license for the Christian to live in sin, disobedience to God's law, sin being transgression of God's law. The Christian is dead to sin therefore cannot live in disobedience to God's law thereby allowing sin to reign over them bring about spiritual death.

Therefore salvation is by BOTH man's obedience and God's grace. Obedience is necessary to keep one from serving sin unto death allowing sin to reign and God's grace is necessary for man's obedience will not be perfect.

Salvation therefore is impossible apart from obedience to God's righteousness for lack of obedience is allowing sin to reign and sin bring about spiritual death. Whereas obedience to God's righteousness allows grace to reign which brings about eternal life. Hence obedience and grace are not antagonistic to each other but fit together like hand in glove.


Again, we each serve either
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

I serve obedience unto righteousness allowing grace to reign over me, which do you serve?


One cannot continue to live under the reign of grace while at the same time be disobedient to God's will....one cannot serve two masters at the same time.



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Rom 6:1ff, the fact that Christians are saved by grace yet that does not give license for the Christian to commit sin refutes OSAS. The Christian to remain saves must be dead to sin and the only way to be dead to sin is to serve obedience unto righeousness for disobedience will cause the Christian to fall away become lost for turning to serve sin (disobedience) unto death.

"After we come to the point of repentance .... and we obey Christ's instruction to be baptized, we are forgiven of all our past sins and we begin to walk in newness of life. How, then, should we continue to respond to the unmerited pardon and grace that God has given us? Notice: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" (Romans 6:1–2). Should a newly begotten Christian, whom God has forgiven and granted grace (unmerited forgiveness and pardon), continue to transgress God's law and disobey God? Paul says plainly: "Certainly not!" The biblical evidence is overwhelming. We cannot continue to disobey God willfully and be given the gift of salvation! Paul was dealing with false Christians who were trying—as do many today—to use grace as a license to sin!

.....Jude also condemned this unbiblical approach to grace. "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4, KJV). The New Revised Standard Version states that these "intruders… pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness." The New International Version words it this way: "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality."
 

mailmandan

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Okay. First off, I never boasted in myself or my own personal works or how I am great (Which is what a narcissist would do). I have stated many times that I am nothing and Christ is everything (and I actually believe that with all my heart).
That’s the opposite of self promotion.
So you are still falsely accusing me of being a narcissist.
The implication in your posts continuously revolve around YOU are doing all the right things and are surely on the narrow road that leads to life based on the merits of your performance/holy living/works, yet those in the OSAS camp and most of Protestantism in general are not doing all the right things, promote a license to sin and are on the broad way that leads to destruction.

Second, no offense, I love you, your family and your friends in the name of Jesus Christ, but they have not likely researched at length what a narcissist actually is. I say this because when I read various articles on narcissists (as I have done in the past several times before), they do not give such a simplistic definition.
Typically whenever someone says, "no offense" they are about to offend you.

According to one article:

“Narcissists believe that they're better than everyone else and expect recognition as such.​
They will often exaggerate or outright lie about their achievements and talents. And when they talk about work or relationships, all you'll hear is how much they contribute, how great they are, and how lucky the people in their lives are to have them. They are the undisputed star and everyone else is at best a bit player.”​

Source:
Please show me where I have done this on the forums. If not, you are falsely accusing me.
I also find lying to be a sin that would condemn my soul. So why would I do that?
Where on the forums have I uplifted myself as the star and everyone else is a bit player?
As far as I can recall, my promotion is God’s Holy Word and Jesus Christ.
You certainly demonstrate a "holier than thou" attitude, especially towards those in the OSAS camp and towards most of Protestantism in general. I have read articles on spiritual narcissists as well and they are also described as those who twist scripture, profess love but don't show it, talk but don't listen, tear others down etc.. Your endless long winded posts are intended to drown others out and you, just like LoveGodsWord from CF, absolutely MUST have the last word in ANY argument and anything that someone says to you after that is the beginning of a new argument.

According to the article:

“A narcissist's sense of superiority is like a balloon that gradually loses air without a steady stream of applause and recognition to keep it inflated. The occasional compliment is not enough. Narcissists need constant food for their ego, so they surround themselves with people who are willing to cater to their obsessive craving for affirmation. These relationships are very one-sided. It's all about what the admirer can do for the narcissist, never the other way around.”​
Again, I cannot say this describes me because I do honestly think about the needs of other people think many times and I try to meet those needs with the love of Jesus Christ. So again, to say I am a narcissist is an insult and a false accusation.
Feel free to try and justify yourself all you want, but my Christian family members and friends along with myself, believe you are a type of spiritual narcissist. Also add 'know it all' to the list.

In fact, the article mentions how there are different types of narcissists; But the article addresses the a typical narcissist.
You certainly are a type of narcissist whether you believe it or not.

Three, I am not promoting myself, but I am promoting God’s Holy Word and what I believe it says.
You promote self and your own personal eisegesis of what you believe God's Holy Word says.

I again, realize that I am nothing and I cannot do anything without Jesus Christ (John 15:5).
You say that out of one side of your mouth, yet out of the other side of your mouth, demonstrate otherwise.

All glory and praise should go to the Lord Jesus Christ and never to me or any other created human being. I also do not believe in self righteousness as if it is my own personal righteousness separate from the LORD. So all praise should go to the LORD Jesus. Works are only needed as a part of salvation (After we are saved by God’s grace) because that is what God’s Word plainly teaches. It has nothing to do with me.
You just contradicted yourself as soon as you said WORKS ARE ONLY NEEDED AS A PART OF SALVATION AFTER WE ARE SAVED BY GOD'S GRACE. So all glory and praise only goes to Jesus Christ "initially" here but NOT ultimately. Part of the glory and praise would go to you for obtaining salvation 'in part' by these works. (type 2 works salvation) It absolutely does have something to do with you, but you will continue to deny it and seek to justify your false gospel of back door works salvation, regardless.

CONTINUED...
 
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mailmandan

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Four, your family and friends like you and so they are not unbiased and they are likely to defend you (So as not to cause any disagreement).
What about your family and friends like you? Don't be hypocritical.

Again, if you cannot point out exactly where in my posts to support your false accusation, then it is simply a hollow claim.
It's not a false accusation. You are a type of 'spiritual narcissist' on some level and multiple Christians I have shared your posts with completely agree. I have already pointed out certain things you said that imply you see yourself as 'holier than thou' and you are judgmental towards others. Regardless of what I point out, you won't see it and will just continue to justify yourself. That's just what you do.

Where did I say I was a prophet?
Where did I predict the future outside of what the Bible says?
I actually believe the Bible alone is sufficient for prophecy.
I don’t believe the gift of prophecy in the church has continued (But I don’t want to make a blanket ban on all Christians and condemn myself. So I do leave room that I could be wrong). But I prefer to stick only with the Bible as my source for prophecy or understanding future events. But my focus is not really Eschatology. My focus in life is to glorify God’s grace to others in this life and to lead them to obey the good ways of the LORD (to glorify Christ and not myself).
Oh good grief. I was not implying that you specifically said that you were a prophet. I was just addressing your pity party in which you cited Matthew 5:11-12 as if this applied to you after being rebuked. Verse 12 ends with "for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” Now they truly were reviled and persecuted!

Again, if what you say is true, then no works or holy living should play a part in salvation if they are not required for salvation (Otherwise it would be salvation by works). Even if you claim that a change in a Christian’s life (doing good works, and not practicing sin) is not salvific in and of themselves alone, and it is faith only in Jesus that saves, it would not be a consistent model that works or makes any sense. If a change is a requirement of a true genuine Christian, then that change is a part of salvation. You have to promote that change as a part of salvation. If not, then… you are going against the change in a backhanded way and double speaking. But of course we had this discussion many times before and you don’t seem to understand that your belief here is a contradiction.
Works and holy living are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation. You keep saying 'part' of salvation as if works and holy living are actually what save us (at least in part) which demonstrates that you are trusting in works and holy living (at least in part) for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE and this remains your achilles heel. Our faith must be 100% in Christ for salvation.

Yes it is a promotion of sin. Because if you are wrong on your interpretation on 1 John 1:8, then you would be turning God’s grace into a license to sin. It only took one sin to separate Adam from God and for the fall of mankind to happen. To say you must sin again because of 1 John 1:8 is turning God’s grace into a license to sin. Even the context of 1 John 1:8 does not support your viewpoint. If it did, then John would talk about how we believers cannot help but to be controlled by our sin nature at times our whole life, and how we must admit to others this sin nature will be with us until death (or how we must sin again occasionally) or we are in deception. But that’s not what John is saying in context. John tells us to “sin not” (1 John 2:1), which would be an impossibility in your belief.
If sin was an impossibility for Christians, then John would not have said, "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) 1 John 1:8 is in the 'present tense' and refutes those who claim sinless perfection. Period. Deal with it.

Again, it’s not about trust in myself. I believe God does the good work through me and any good done in my life I seek to give Him the praise and glory and not myself. It’s all about the LORD and not me..
More sugar coated double talk.
For you try to convince me that Christians do not have to overcome sin in this life (Which runs contrary to Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1). Therefore, you believe in disobedience to God as a part of salvation. You fail to understand that the Judgment will be a righteous judgment and not an unrighteous one... Seeing you defend disobedience to God, this means you really hate the real Jesus of the Bible.
All I said was that Christians are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time (1 John 1:8-10) then you falsely accuse me of believing in disobedience to God as part of salvation and really hating the real Jesus of the Bible. That is slander, which is sin and spoken by a true spiritual narcissist who seems to confidently and self righteously believe he is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time.

I really don't have time to address the rest of your long winded rants (which I have already addressed multiple times before) because it's the busy season at the Post Office and I have to go in early and work later, but we all know how much you like to hear yourself talk and have the last word, so I'm sure that is just fine with you.
 
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mailmandan

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The Legalists That Love to trot these verses out take them out of Context.....they pay NO attention to the verses that precede or follow them, and make them appear to be something that they are not.....one can take the Confusion out of these verses easily.....you just need to know how to “ Rightly Divide”.......
You nailed it!
 
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Titus

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based on the merits of your performance/holy living/works,
Danthemailman you have been told, meriting salvation is impossible over and over.
Yet you are happy to spread this libel at anyone who teaches what the Bible says
Folks who believe Jesus, believe we must submit ourselves to Him to receive Gods grace.
That doesn't automatically mean someone believes in salvation through merit.
You can say it all you want. It is nothing but a false accusation that exposes your lack of credibility.

Heres reality. Anyone who claims they are saved without obeying Gods commandments are true believers in salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments.
That's not a strawman, that's fact
 

Bible Highlighter

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You have to give a proper balance between those verses on believing in Jesus vs. those verses that warn us believers about sin and or unfruitfulness at the cost of our own soul


This is the essence of our disagreements......and there is certainly no doubt about it—- we are warned about sin and we are to be “ fruitful” ...but “ especially” when all verses are taken in their context , it is clear that some verses just happen to trump other ones.....For example, When the Bible says clearly that “ Anybody that asks to be Saved WILL be Saved”, how does one argue with THAT? Whatever you throw out there that we “ Should” do or even what appears that we “ Must” do to get or stay Saved—— for God to fulfill just that ONE Promise ( and there are more just like it, for our Assurance Of Salvation) He has put the Onus for Salvation upon His Own Shoulders—— to put it rather crudely, He has put the monkey on His own back and whatever the Requirements turn out to be ( and I teach Nothing But The Blood) for Salvation , it is now up to HIM to see that the things that must happen WILL happen and if there is something that you “ can’t “ do, lest you be damned, HE will see to it that it will NOT be done.....
We do “ our” part, which is to Trust, and God will do “ His” part, which is to “ Save to the Uttermost” , ALL that will simply “ Come to Him”...... God does not expect us to save ourselves with good behavior and Fruit bearing ....anything that is required by a Him is also provided by Him—- “ Turn to me and I will Turn to you”.......” HE will finish the good work that He started” .....once again, how do you argue against THAT ? If you Trust Him , you don’t . I have chosen to Trust HIM and not ME.....that is how a wretched man like me got Saved — and STAYS Saved......as Paul said, we finish the same way we started —- FAITH ! And that I have....He takes my Faith and just like He did with Abraham —- He “ Counts” it as Righteousness ...I simply thank Him for His Grace.....
Please read Matthew 5:28-30. Why would Jesus warn us about how lusting after a woman with our body being potentially cast into hellfire by doing so if this was all to be done away by having a belief alone in Jesus? If you were to read the sermon on the mount again (Matthew 5-7), there is no indication in this sermon that Christ’s whole point was leading up to how we cannot possibly obey Him and so the solution is just to trust in the finished work of the cross. If you believe Jesus’ teachings changed with Paul: Then why would Paul say that if any teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and he knows nothing? (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). Why would Paul say in 1 Timothy 5:8 that, “…if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”? It makes no sense. So your belief is not consistent with the plain reading of Scripture. That’s just how I see it from God’s Word. Care to explain these verses I mentioned?
 

Bible Highlighter

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The implication in your posts continuously revolve around YOU are doing all the right things and are surely on the narrow road that leads to life based on the merits of your performance/holy living/works, yet those in the OSAS camp and most of Protestantism in general are not doing all the right things, promote a license to sin and are on the broad way that leads to destruction.
First, I did not write the Bible. God did. If God tells us to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, among other verses like it, then that is a truth I have to accept (Whether you, your neighbor, or I like that truth or not).

Second, you make a false assumption in your claim. You think it is all about me. But it is the opposite. The Bible teaches that this Sanctification of living a holy life by the LORD’s power involves helping others in need (with a pure heart of love in our hearts), and with preaching the gospel, and the Word, and helping our brothers in Christ in need. Our life is in sacrifice to Jesus Christ and His commands as God’s Word teaches. We are to pick up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Jesus. This is all about a lack of self (or “YOU” as you call it). So it’s a life of being selfless and not selfish. It's a life devoted to God and not self.

I also believe God deserves all the praise and glory for not only in Him saving the believer by His grace when they first came to Him, but by also in those rare times a believer may mess up and they need to go boldly before the throne of His grace and confess of their sins to the Lord Jesus (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). This would be done on the believer’s road of cleansing themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). I also believe the LORD also gets all the praise and glory when He does the good work through the believer’s life, as well. I cannot take any credit for what is my duty to do. By my power and ability alone, I am nothing and I am unprofitable servant (Luke 17). Granted, believers must cooperate with the LORD of their own free will and surrender to the LORD. For the Lord did say “Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:23).

I believe your way is about “YOU” because it makes room for sinning on occasion or how we must sin again always at some point in this life before we die or we are deceiving ourselves (As if to falsely suggest God promotes how we must sin again when God is holly and just and He cannot agree with our sin). You also preach a contradictory message.

#1. On the one hand: At times you say that we are only saved by a belief alone in Jesus + nothing else.
#2. On the other hand: At times you say works and holy living must be there to show a true saving faith (even though that works and holy living in and of themselves do not save).

This can confuse the person and make them think they must do works and live holy to be saved or they can just revert back to your #1 position and think that all they have to do is just believe in Jesus their whole lives for salvation and not worry about works and living holy. There are many Hyper Grace Christians out there and if they take your #1 position more seriously, you would have helped to pave the road for them to go down that path (Because you really don’t believe works or holy living plays part in our salvation).

Typically whenever someone says, "no offense" they are about to offend you.
Yes, but this saying is said because it lets the person know we care for them and we have empathy towards them.
It’s about making the truth a little more palatable In love.


You certainly demonstrate a "holier than thou" attitude, especially towards those in the OSAS camp and towards most of Protestantism in general. I have read articles on spiritual narcissists as well and they are also described as those who twist scripture, profess love but don't show it, talk but don't listen, tear others down etc.. Your endless long winded posts are intended to drown others out and you,
First, a Christian needs discernment by abiding in Christ and His words when reading such articles. Many of these articles on spiritual narcissism are into psychology. If you were to research psychology, it is a school of thought that is not compatible with Christianity (See this article here for starters). So while these articles may hold to some biblical true things in some cases, they are not always correct. They are incorrect to imply that we cannot judge others (When Jesus Himself said we can make righteous judgement - John 7:24) and or claim that others are wrong (even if the whole world went corrupt). Think. Noah is said to be a preacher of righteousness in Scripture. It also written that the world around him was exceedingly wicked. Was Noah a spiritual narcissist just because he and his family alone were correct while everybody else around him was wrong? Was Noah wrong for having a “holier than thou” attitude to those wicked people around him? Surely not. Granted, I don’t believe we have reached that point yet. But we are getting closer to that point each day with even Christians justifying sin in the church (with some of them justifying lots of sin and others justifying occasional sin).

Second, when reading in these articles on spiritual narcissism, I do agree with some of their points on what would make a person a spiritual narcissist (Which is only a reflection of a real narcissist). Here are a few points I agree with.

A spiritual narcissist…

#1. Lacks empathy.
#2. Does not know personal boundaries and sneaks in on conversations to condemn you.
#3. They will use manipulative methods (like helping people out financially) to gain somebody to their side.
#4. They never admit that they are wrong.

I actually find these things deplorable and it grieves my soul for anyone to do such things (Which would disqualify me in being a narcissist).

In fact, I have actually met a Christian in whom I believe is a narcissist. When I talked with him by email, and when I disagreed with his odd view that being born again was a later event in the Christian life after one is saved initially, he started to become hostile towards me and started to say there was a spiritual wall between us (with him showing a picture of two people with a wall between them). When I pointed out to him how his use of Finnis Jennings Dake’s list of New Testament commands was problematic because Finnis rejected the Trinity and he listed commands by verbs and not how they naturally appear in the Bible, this man I talked with by email also did not seem to care and he just accepted Dake’s list regardless (Because he was not willing to be corrected and he just wanted to be right despite being wrong). Note: I have taken correction on things from other people before. My list in this thread link below was in part from the help of others showing me what Scripture says (Whereby I have taken correction by others by God’s Word).


I say this not to boast in myself, but I say this to boast in the Lord Jesus for any good He does in my life (for revealing any truth to me in it’s proper time He deems fit).

Again, when you speak of spiritual narcissism, it really is no different than narcissism.

Where I disagree with the spiritual narcissist articles is that they say that you cannot disagree with others and think that you or only few of you cannot disagree with the majority. Was the Psalmist a spiritual narcissist when he said this?

Psalms 119:99
“I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.”

Yet, articles from psychologists say that it is wrong to basically think this way.
I will stick with the Word of God and not psychology.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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just like LoveGodsWord from CF, absolutely MUST have the last word in ANY argument and anything that someone says to you after that is the beginning of a new argument.
This is not true. Somebody in another thread also falsely claimed I need to have the last word and yet, I didn’t leave the last word in that thread (ironically).

See this thread here:


So again, you falsely accuse me.


Feel free to try and justify yourself all you want, but my Christian family members and friends along with myself, believe you are a type of spiritual narcissist. Also add 'know it all' to the list.
Groups of people can be deceived into believing false things. Remember, Jim Jones got a ton of people to commit suicide as a part of his false religion. Granted, I am not saying you and your family will do that, but my point here is that just because you have your family and friends backing you does not mean that they cannot be deceived by believing something that is false. Again, as I said, talk to somebody not related to you by friendship or family and who is a professional on narcissism and they will tell you that narcissists lack empathy and they violate privacy of people. They basically are cold heartless people looking to uplift only themselves and or their odd views even at the expense of hurting the other person or people.

You certainly are a type of narcissist whether you believe it or not.
I rejoice in the Lord by your false accusation. But I do hope you change of course and accept God’s Word for what it plainly says. As I pointed out before to others, you don’t believe the words of Jesus like in Matthew 5:28-30 apply to us, etcetera (n the sense that sin can separate us from God). I simply read God’s Word and believe it.

Anyways, I am actually wondering if you are actually trying to falsely accuse me intentionally to uplift yourself or you are that blinded to think what you actually believe what you do here. In either case, please just know I love you in Jesus Christ and I wish no ill will towards you (Despite your false accusations). For in my experience, it is a common tactic that if a person cannot properly defend their beliefs with Scripture alone, they then try to discredit the person in some way to win their argument. This is what I believe you are doing. You seek to make it about me and and you are not making it solely about the Scripture on the topic. My discussion of this topic was never with the initial thinking so as to bring me into it personally. I actually prefer to distance myself from these kinds of topics as much as possible so as to keep it as a purely biblical discussion alone. Neither was my focus about you personally, either. I just spoke on this topic in regards to false beliefs in general that exist today when compared to what the Bible says. That is the real focus here and it should be addressed with Scripture. It’s not about any specific individuals but it is about whether a belief can stand when under careful scrutiny to God's Holy Word.


You promote self and your own personal eisegesis of what you believe God's Holy Word says.
No. I promote God’s Word. This leads to selflessness and not selfishness. Again, I believe your view makes room to justify occasional sin (Which is selfishness and not selflessness as Jesus taught).


You say that out of one side of your mouth, yet out of the other side of your mouth, demonstrate otherwise.


You just contradicted yourself as soon as you said WORKS ARE ONLY NEEDED AS A PART OF SALVATION AFTER WE ARE SAVED BY GOD'S GRACE. So all glory and praise only goes to Jesus Christ "initially" here but NOT ultimately. Part of the glory and praise would go to you for obtaining salvation 'in part' by these works. (type 2 works salvation) It absolutely does have something to do with you, but you will continue to deny it and seek to justify your false gospel of back door works salvation, regardless.
I have already demonstrated by many Scriptures already in this thread proving that Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is false. Let the diligent Berean do his own research on the verses I presented and make up their own mind. The Scriptures all by themselves can change a person to believe the correct things and in doing the correct things. So far, only those who believe as you do will nod in agreement with you with them not really bothering to check the context (from an unbiased perspective), and or looking at the verses that demolishes their belief that I put forth to them.

In either case, may the Lord Jesus Christ and His love shine upon you greatly.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The Legalists That Love to trot these verses out take them out of Context.....they pay NO attention to the verses that precede or follow them, and make them appear to be something that they are not.....one can take the Confusion out of these verses easily.....you just need to know how to “ Rightly Divide”.......
It’s one thing to say this but it is another matter to demonstrate it by backing up your words with actual Scripture.
 

Bible Highlighter

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You nailed it!
Sorry. BloodBought1953 did not nail anything in regards to this topic. He just made a statement about how we are not reading the context and yet he did not demonstrate this by posting any actual Scriptural context that defends him.
 

mailmandan

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I have already demonstrated by many Scriptures already in this thread proving that Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is false.
Actually, you have proved nothing through your endless long winded rants full of the same regurgitated eisegesis and flawed logic.
Sorry. BloodBought1953 did not nail anything in regards to this topic.
BloodBought1953 actually did nail it and he certainly can identify a legalist. Sorry if that hit a nerve.
 

Bible Highlighter

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What about your family and friends like you? Don't be hypocritical.
Unlike you, I am not going to my family and friends to establish the truth on something simple I can find out on the internet and research for myself. I can look at professional articles on narcissism to know about narcissism. I can read the Bible for myself and understand what it says. I am also able to self analyze what I write and know what I said and did not say. Your claiming I am a spiritual narcissist (i.e. narcissist), and that is simply not true in the typical understanding on that word. There is no self in preaching what God’s Word says, and in following Jesus (Which is what I am promoting here). Again, I did not write the Bible. God did. If you take issue with what His Word says, take it up with the LORD and not me.

It's not a false accusation. You are a type of 'spiritual narcissist' on some level and multiple Christians I have shared your posts with completely agree. I have already pointed out certain things you said that imply you see yourself as 'holier than thou' and you are judgmental towards others. Regardless of what I point out, you won't see it and will just continue to justify yourself. That's just what you do.
Yes, it is a false accusation. You don’t understand that a spiritual narcissist is the same thing as a narcissist. Narcissists are people who have no empathy or love towards others and they are seeking to be right always and they can never at any point admit that they are wrong about anything. They are overly critical to a point of being hateful and they are not really diplomatic in striving to be loving with people. They are cold, and heartless people. So again, you, your family, and friends do not have a full understanding on what a narcissist actually is. If you truly want to know, then please feel free to contact a professional that is not related to you to find out the whole story. Granted, all you have to do is just Google up more on narcissists to get the full truth on this matter. But I think you like trying to falsely accuse me here or side with 1 point in these psychology articles that is not based on the truth of the Bible (See again Psalms 119:99).


Oh good grief. I was not implying that you specifically said that you were a prophet. I was just addressing your pity party in which you cited Matthew 5:11-12 as if this applied to you after being rebuked. Verse 12 ends with "for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” Now they truly were reviled and persecuted!
This passage by our Lord is not talking about how Jesus is referring to those believing listeners as being prophets. He is only saying that they would be persecuted like prophets were. You said I am not a prophet. Now, you seem to be backtracking on that idea because it does not actually fit in light of God’s Word.


Works and holy living are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation. You keep saying 'part' of salvation as if works and holy living are actually what save us (at least in part) which demonstrates that you are trusting in works and holy living (at least in part) for salvation and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE and this remains your achilles heel. Our faith must be 100% in Christ for salvation.
Again, I did not write the Bible. God did. Your issue is not with me but it is with the Bible.
We are commanded: “let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:9). This is in context to the person who sows to the Spirit to reap everlasting life (Galatians 6:8). Nothing is said here that supports your viewpoint or belief in this passage here. So we must conclude that we are first saved by God’s grace without works, and Galatians 6:8-9 is talking about a secondary aspect of salvation we must partake in. Otherwise, you are forced to either ignore this passage or twist it to your own destruction.

If sin was an impossibility for Christians, then John would not have said, "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) 1 John 1:8 is in the 'present tense' and refutes those who claim sinless perfection. Period. Deal with it.

I already gave my explanation on 1 John 1:8 already with you using the Bible. There is no point repeating this point with you any further.
People will see things from either a glass being half empty or a glass being half full. I choose to believe God is not saying we must sin again on occasion because it goes against the very nature of God. God is good, and He does not want us to sin or to justify sin. It’s just that simple.

More sugar coated double talk.

All I said was that Christians are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time (1 John 1:8-10) then you falsely accuse me of believing in disobedience to God as part of salvation and really hating the real Jesus of the Bible. That is slander, which is sin and spoken by a true spiritual narcissist who seems to confidently and self righteously believe he is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time.

I really don't have time to address the rest of your long winded rants (which I have already addressed multiple times before) because it's the busy season at the Post Office and I have to go in early and work later, but we all know how much you like to hear yourself talk and have the last word, so I'm sure that is just fine with you.
Christians are supposed to be in a Sanctification Process of living holy. 2 Corinthians 7:1 sums it nicely. So believers need to be cleansing themselves with overcoming sin in this life as the eventual end goal. Just as a drunk who may stumble on occasion on his road to recovery in overcoming his demon in the bottle. But you would have a drunk think he must be a slave to his drunkenness if you were to apply your same mentality here.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Actually, you have proved nothing through your endless long winded rants full of the same regurgitated eisegesis and flawed logic.
I provided Scripture to prove my case and so let the good Berean reader (Who is unbiased) examine Scripture for themselves to see the truth on this matter. I am confident if they are truly unbiased, they will see the truth that we are saved by both God’s grace and Sanctification.

BloodBought1953 actually did nail it and he certainly can identify a legalist. Sorry if that hit a nerve.
Sorry to burst your bubble. No nerve was ever actually hit by this statement. I actually found it to be amusing because no actual Scriptural evidence was made to support his claims.
 

mailmandan

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Danthemailman you have been told, meriting salvation is impossible over and over.
Yet you are happy to spread this libel at anyone who teaches what the Bible says
Folks who believe Jesus, believe we must submit ourselves to Him to receive Gods grace.
That doesn't automatically mean someone believes in salvation through merit.
You can say it all you want. It is nothing but a false accusation that exposes your lack of credibility.

Heres reality. Anyone who claims they are saved without obeying Gods commandments are true believers in salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments.
That's not a strawman, that's fact
Salvation by faith + works (even if it's only works in part) merits salvation (at least in part). Period. Too many folks say they believe Jesus, yet misinterpret the words of Jesus and end up submitting themselves to a false religion or cult expecting to receive God's grace based on works. I have news for you. We are justified/accounted as righteous by faith "apart from additions or modifications" and we have access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:1-2) I know how you like to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe does not fit.

Your idea of submitting to Jesus culminates in salvation by works, which results in merit for the alleged believer. I've heard this same sugar coated double talk from Roman Catholics about saved by "these" works and just not "those" works which is bogus.

In regards to obeying God's commandments, none of us have flawlessly obeyed God's commandments 100% of the time (except for Jesus Christ) so that is not the way to salvation. Now genuine believers do "keep" (guard, observe, watch) over His commandments (1 John 2:3) which is not the same as flawless obedience 100% of the time. God only see's us as flawless based on the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)
 

mailmandan

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I provided Scripture to prove my case and so let the good Berean reader (Who is unbiased) examine Scripture for themselves to see the truth on this matter. I am confident if they are truly unbiased, they will see the truth that we are saved by both God’s grace and Sanctification.

Sorry to burst your bubble. No nerve was ever actually hit by this statement. I actually found it to be amusing because no actual Scriptural evidence was made to support his claims.
Sure, let the good Berean reader come to examine the real truth found in Scripture and discover your eisegesis for themselves like I have. It really doesn't matter how much Scriptural evidence is provided for you anyway because you just don't have eyes to see. Type 2 works salvation implied in entire sanctification is not the truth and it's also a perverted gospel. Glad you were amused. I don't find your endless, self righteous rants or your false gospel amusing at all.