The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Rex]

I see you posted about the rest of the text I wrote
Let me just say from briefly reading your post "above" you don't have a clue about what is meant.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I marvel at the way peoples minds work "all nations are now Israel"

You must have dyslexia or something ..... it is you who is trying to imply all nations are now Israel

Not me.

 

[Rex]

I find it absolutely bizarre that someone would use EZE 18 to disprove Romans 11

It doesn't surprise me the least bit, its rather sad really.
Good night Arnie I can see your upset

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I see you posted about the rest of the text I wrote
Let me just say from briefly reading your post "above" you don't have a clue about what is meant.

Agreed .... i cannot grasp your concept whatsoever

It doesn't surprise me the least bit, its rather sad really.

Good night Arnie I can see your upset

I am off to bed too ..... good night .

in closing ..... wouldn't this whole thing be resolved simply by believing Romans ?

 

[daq]

Completely wacko daq

As usual

That is the politest way I can say it. Sorry.

1 Corinthians 1:22-23 KJV
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Agreed .... i cannot grasp your concept whatsoever



I am off to bed too ..... good night .

in closing ..... wouldn't this whole thing be resolved simply by believing Romans ?

Sweet dreams dreamer! However, please know that it is you who does not believe Romans or the Scripture. Paul clearly lays out the "definitions of terms" in the very first chapter where he writes of Jews, Greeks, Barbarians, and Gentiles which should be understood and rendered as Nations, (Ethnos). If you would only be willing to see what is said herein you might begin to understand that "Nations" can also be understood as "Heathen" and the same thing happens in the TaNaK with the word "goy-goyim" (sometimes it simply means a nation or nations and other times, by the context, it clearly means "heathen" as in Deuteronomy 7:1). Paul does not state anywhere that "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile" but rather he writes that "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek."

Romans 1:13-16 KJV
13. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14. I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:11-12 KJV
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

You may think this is inconsequential but when you arrive at Romans 11:25 it makes all the difference in the world to your understanding of what is being said because Paul speaks not of "the fullness of the Gentiles" having come in but rather "the fullness of the heathen" having entered into a man who then truly is in need of salvation from his own vices and bondage. This "fullness of the heathen" concerns Deuteronomy 7:1. Young's Literal Bible thankfully makes note of these differences in terms elsewhere and renders "ethnos" as "nations" rather than gentiles:

Romans 1:13-16 YLT
13. And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that many times I did purpose to come unto you - and was hindered till the present time - that some fruit I might have also among you, even as also among the other nations.
14. Both to Greeks and to foreigners, both to wise and to thoughtless, I am a debtor,
15. so, as much as in me is, I am ready also to you who [are] in Rome to proclaim good news,
16. for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

Romans 2:14 YLT
14. For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law - to themselves are a law;

Romans 2:24 YLT
24. for the name of God because of you is evil spoken of among the nations, according as it hath been written.

Romans 2:24 KJV
24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Where is it written that the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles?

Ezekiel 20:27-32 KJV
27. Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.
28. For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.
29. Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.
30. Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31. For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.
32. And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, [goyim] as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.

Deuteronomy 7:1-4 KJV
1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations [goyim] greater and mightier than thou;
2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Acts 13:16-19, 40-41 KJV
16. Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17. The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18. And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19. And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Habakkuk 1:4-11 KJV
4. Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5. Behold ye among the heathen, [goyim] and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, [goy] which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.
9. They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
10. And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it.
11. Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

Clearly SPIRIT and clearly EVIL ~

Romans 11:25-27
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Heathen be entered in. [eiserchomai - to enter]
26. And in this manner shall all Israel be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Perhaps the reasons why my statement from the previous post above sounded "wacko" to you are, for one, you walk only according to the physical realm and that which may be seen with the eyes of the flesh or eaten with the mouth of the belly of the flesh; and for two, because you pick and choose whatsoever Scripture passages your heart desires so as to assemble a doctrine which you concocted for yourself; snatching what portion you need out from its context while the remainder ignoring as if it was not written for you to begin with anyways. In other words you do not even have a dog in this fight because you have nothing to loose if you are incorrect in your understanding; likewise you appear not to be concerned that your dogmas might pollute the waters for your brother who comes to agree with your view. The "fullness of the heathen" which Paul writes about in Romans 11:25 concerns the seven nations greater and mightier than the sons of Israel written in Deuteronomy 7:1-4, which Paul even quotes in his Acts 13 warning as well as Habakkuk at the end of that passage, and which seven nations we are likewise commanded not to make marriages or "covenants" with, (supernal in meaning "as in the days of Noah" even as the Master Yeshua clearly also warns). Yeshua interprets those seven heathen-nations, (which are the seven kings and seven mountains of Revelation 17) when he casts out the unclean spirit "Legion" from the man of the Gergesenos who was possessed with the Girgashite Legion. Therefore beware, O dreamer, for the Girgashite Warrior is the seventh of the eight and no mortal man can bind him. Then shall we see who calls on the name of the Lord whe it really counts, and who overcomes, and who is truly "saved", and who truly understands what it means to be set free by the Deliverer who comes out of Zion!
Ruling Seven Mountains with a Rod of Iron

 

[veteran]

We also know many in Israel were not believers.

We know God broke off the branch of the olive tree (Israel) containing the unbelieving Israelites

In its place we know God grafted a branch into the olive tree (Israel) for us Gentiles to partake of the promise along with the Jews ..... (we did not become the Jews .... or Israel)

This is where many brethren are failing to understand Apostle Paul in Romans 11 concerning the seed of Israel, and thus the part of Israel called the Jews.

Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)

A "remnant" means God reserved a PART of the seed... of Israel unto His Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. They are the election according to His Grace, the first believers of the seed of Israel as His Apostles and disciples that followed Him.

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(KJV)

In verses 7-8 Paul is talking about the seed of Israel ONLY. He is not speaking of Gentiles. The election of the seed of Israel obtained Christ's Grace, but the rest of Israel was blinded by God.


Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(KJV)

Paul said SOME of the branches of the seed of Israel were broken off, not ALL... of the seed of Israel.
Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)

That "blindness in part" means only a PORTION of the seed of Israel was blinded by God, not all of them.


So WHICH PART mostly, of the seed of Israel was blinded away from Christ's Salvation of His Blood shed upon the cross?

THE JEWS, mostly.

Per Bible and secular history, who are the JEWS?

The Jews were a separated branch from the main body of the seed of Israel. The Jews was a title used by the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem from their 70 years Babylon captivity. Bible history hints the "house of Judah" may have begun using that title of 'Jew' to distinguish their kingdom at Jerusalem from the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel under the tribe of Ephraim.

The northern ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel" made up the majority of the seed of Israel. They were scattered apart from the Jews (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), and never returned to the holy lands of promise. Those returning to the modern state of Israel today are JEWS, not ten tribe Israelites.

Some of the Jews that were scattered also believed on Jesus Christ. But they by no means make up the majority of today's Christian Church, not back in history and not now either.

So did GOD forget about the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel, i.e., the ten tribes?? I assure you, He did not forget them, and knows where He scattered them to and who they would become in the latter days.

 

[daq]

This is where many brethren are failing to understand Apostle Paul in Romans 11 concerning the seed of Israel, and thus the part of Israel called the Jews.

Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)

A "remnant" means God reserved a PART of the seed... of Israel unto His Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. They are the election according to His Grace, the first believers of the seed of Israel as His Apostles and disciples that followed Him.

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(KJV)

In verses 7-8 Paul is talking about the seed of Israel ONLY. He is not speaking of Gentiles. The election of the seed of Israel obtained Christ's Grace, but the rest of Israel was blinded by God.


Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(KJV)

Paul said SOME of the branches of the seed of Israel were broken off, not ALL... of the seed of Israel.
Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)

That "blindness in part" means only a PORTION of the seed of Israel was blinded by God, not all of them.


So WHICH PART mostly, of the seed of Israel was blinded away from Christ's Salvation of His Blood shed upon the cross?

THE JEWS, mostly.

Per Bible and secular history, who are the JEWS?

The Jews were a separated branch from the main body of the seed of Israel. The Jews was a title used by the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem from their 70 years Babylon captivity. Bible history hints the "house of Judah" may have begun using that title of 'Jew' to distinguish their kingdom at Jerusalem from the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel under the tribe of Ephraim.

The northern ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel" made up the majority of the seed of Israel. They were scattered apart from the Jews (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), and never returned to the holy lands of promise. Those returning to the modern state of Israel today are JEWS, not ten tribe Israelites.

Some of the Jews that were scattered also believed on Jesus Christ. But they by no means make up the majority of today's Christian Church, not back in history and not now either.

So did GOD forget about the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel, i.e., the ten tribes?? I assure you, He did not forget them, and knows where He scattered them to and who they would become in the latter days.

Perhaps when the caul of your heart is finally rent open so that your heart may truly be circumcised you will see yourself in the whole new Light of Messiah. Unfortunately for you, (like most) it will take a lion or lioness, a she-bear robbed of her cubs, and a leopard to do the cleaving and rending; for your chestplate is one of iron. :lol:

Hosea 13:4-11
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11. I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

You wanted a king but now you have three, and the third has four heads: and the Father will take them away in his fury, O Israel.
Fear not, for it is toward our own benefit that he does these things to bring about that good Ending which he has promised.

PS ~ Try reading Jeremiah 11 if you truly desire to know what the Olive Tree concerns, (which you claim to be grafted into).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Romans is one of the most straightforward chapters in the whole bible.
The people who refuse to believe it must be rooted in blind antisemitism
I can think of no other reason.

(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Trumpeter]

Romans is one of the most straightforward chapters in the whole bible.
The people who refuse to believe it must be rooted in blind antisemitism
I can think of no other reason.

(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.

Amen Arnie.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.

(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means! - That was said before 70AD
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! - Again, said before 70 AD
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. - Jesus is what makes the whole holy
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. - because pride goes before a fall; also neither consider yourself inferior
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you - the root is Jesus
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. - and what gifts and calling do they have now? Jesus has inherited all of the promises
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again. - as he is able to graft anyone in

 

[daq]

Romans is one of the most straightforward chapters in the whole bible.
The people who refuse to believe it must be rooted in blind antisemitism
I can think of no other reason.

(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.

All those things I know to be true from the Epistle to the Romans. So what then? Are you trying to paint those who disagree with you as anti-Semites now? Are you accusing me of hating my own people because I simply told you the truth? It is not anti-Semitism but rather anti-Zionism and there is a huge difference. If you are willing to accuse me of anti-Semitism then you are nothing more than a Rockefeller-Rothschild Zionist Illuminati, (western faction) stooge, and in truth, it is you who are really the one who hates my people and uses them for your own political gain.

1 Kings 19:7-18 KJV
7. And the angel of the Lord came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee.
8. And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.
9. And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
10. And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
11. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12. And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
14. And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
15. And the Lord said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. [Re: Romans 11:1-4]

My people are of Mount Horeb, the Mountain of God, while the ones you coddle up to are of Sinai and Hagar.

---

Salvation is of the Jews:

John 4:22-26 KJV
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Yeshua is Messiah of the Jews and himself a Jew:

Revelation 5:5 KJV
5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Yeshua is the Lion of Judah and the Root of David:

Revelation 3:7-8 KJV
7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Yeshua has the key of David and offers an open door which no one can shut.
Anyone who claims to be a "Christian" likewise claims to be IN Messiah Yeshua.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Therefore anyone who claims to be "circumcised in heart" claims to be a Jew.
Therefore anyone who claims to be a "Christian" by default claims to be a Jew.

Therefore the following warning applies TO YOU:

Revelation 2:9 KJV (Smyrna)
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 KJV (Philadelphia)
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Be careful that you are not claiming to be something you are not when you claim to be grafted into the Root.
Especially if you are going to start making false accusations and charges of anti-Semitism.

 

[Rex]

Completely unrelated ..... the message of Eze 18 is that every individual is responsible for their own sin .... if a parent sins (eats sour grapes) .... the results will not be transferred to the child. (child's teeth set on edge)

It is an untrue proverb ..... and for that reason that proverb shall no longer be spoken in Israel.

You are trying to twist it to say there will not be an Israel to say a proverb in ... sheesh !!!!

.....................

No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.

Those that teach that the proper understanding of Romans 11:25 is that Israel has been blinded, for 2000 years now, thats what they say and teach.
That my friend is using the the parable of the sour grapes. That Gods has blinded Israels generations, not because of what they have done but apparently because of what their fathers did. He "God" goes on to clearly point out that He will not curse a man because of his fathers sin or rejection of the truth. Thats not what modern dispensationolist teach. They use the parable of the sour grapes. I hope you understand my point now.

God clearly warned that this "proverb" should never be spoken, "used" yet here we are with thousands of ministers basing NT teachings on the same proverb. It's to bad Arnie because there is much more that could probably be learned form this starting point, it echos Daniel and Rev the captivity in Babylon but If some choose to continue in the use of the proverb just as it was for Jer and Ezek in their day, we can not move any closer to the Lord or the greater understanding and connection this has to EVERYTHING.

 

[daq]

No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.

Those that teach that the proper understanding of Romans 11:25 is that Israel has been blinded, for 2000 years now, thats what they say and teach.
That my friend is using the the parable of the sour grapes. That Gods has blinded Israels generations, not because of what they have done but apparently because of what their fathers did. He "God" goes on to clearly point out that He will not curse a man because of his fathers sin or rejection of the truth. Thats not what modern dispensationolist teach. They use the parable of the sour grapes. I hope you understand my point now.

God clearly warned that this "proverb" should never be spoken, "used" yet here we are with thousands of ministers basing NT teachings on the same proverb. It's to bad Arnie because there is much more that could probably be learned form this starting point, it echos Daniel and Rev the captivity in Babylon but If some choose to continue in the use of the proverb just as it was for Jer and Ezek in their day, we can not move any closer to the Lord or the greater understanding and connection this has to EVERYTHING.

That is exactly what they do so that they may have their own segregated "dispensation of grace" and leave the Jews out of the equation until the "Rapture" when seven more years of "the Law age" and Armageddon come down upon the heads of the Jews while they are feasting in heaven. It is absurd to the point of ludicrous especially when the Jews, (at least as a people for the most part) have never left any "age of the Law" and continue to observe Torah. :lol:

 

[Rex]

He is speaking of physical Israel. Not all of physical Israel [of the flesh or descended from] are Israel but those who are spiritually saved are citizen's of Israel.
This does not correspond with Revelation 7:9-17 because John is making a distinction between two groups of redeemed peoples.

I agree two groups, I started a thread about two groups of people found in Matthew 25
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/

The sheep of His hand and His brethren

That is exactly what they do so that they may have their own segregated "dispensation of grace" and leave the Jews out of the equation until the "Rapture" when seven more years of "the Law age" and Armageddon come down upon the heads of the Jews while they are feasting in heaven. It is absurd to the point of ludicrous especially when the Jews, (at least as a people for the most part) have never left any "age of the Law" and continue to observe Torah. :lol:

I would like to add for the benefit of others that may agree with my post, that the Lord raised up two great prophets Jer and Ezek just before it hit the fan.
It's just another reason to believe there is nothing new under the sun. I want to mention that I am not a prophet, I'm simply a man that on occasion catches a glimpse of the light and shares it with whom ever will listen.

 

[daq]

I agree two groups, I started a thread about two groups of people found in Matthew 25
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/

The sheep of His hand and His brethren


I would like to add for the benefit of others that may agree with my post, that the Lord raised up two great prophets Jer and Ezek just before it hit the fan.
It's just another reason to believe there is nothing new under the sun. I want to mention that I am not a prophet, I'm simply a man that on occasion catches a glimpse of the light and shares it with whom ever will listen.

Not sure what the "prophet" comments are about, (neither do I claim to be a prophet, a scholar, or anything else) but as for the "brethren" comments I have five on my right hand as well as five on my left hand and all of them belong to the Lord, as fellowservants of my household, placed under my care while the Master is away in a far journey, ("Yeshua Says"). h34r:

 

[Rex]

I was just about to add for clarification
My desire is be reunited with my brother

There have been lots of claims made here, and there still exists many that indicate themselves a divine oracle concerning the word of the Lord Jesus.
I just want to make it clear I'm noting more than a man walking as every man is instructed to do in scripture and lead in the Spirit.

Even unto the secret that some believe themselves to be Israel lost during the Assyrian captivity. I don't want any confusion or to be mistakenly associated with these people. I hope I have now made myself clear as to why I mentioned such a thing.

 

[daq]

Well, still not sure but I do not plan to read all eight pages of this thread just to find who believes what. It never was about a physical seed and never will be. The holy seed line has always been Spirit and by faith even before the flood up to Noah, (these things are indeed written and can be proven; Noah was "the eighth preacher of righteousness"). As for brethren, and pertaining to this thread topic, IF I have the immersion of Yochanan the Immerser then I would be a priest just as the Scripture says we have been made a kingdom of priests; IF I likewise have the immersion into Yeshua then I would likewise be graffed into the Root which is Judah. If I then have these two tribes in my heart, as one, then what are my ten brethren? five on my right hand, and five on my left? They can sometimes be my enemies concerning the Gospel because they sometimes acquire a mind of their own and I might need to cut them off; but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Thus in the End all Israel shall be saved; each in his appointed times, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. How else shall we understand but by the parables? :)

 

[Rex]

I'm manly concerned with putting to rest the teachings of dispensation in all of its contradictions. By indicating that the very foundation is flawed--> "generational curses" the entire teaching simply vanishes like the grand illusion it is, including it's main use in interpreting Rev. and the end times secret rapture.

But I guarantee you people will continue to use the proverb of sour grapes, teaching that God has blinded the Jews, in-spite of the clear warning from Ezek and Jer.
What does Jer say just before he declares the well known verses describing new covenant? Jer 31:29-34 all that comes to mind is the seven woes to the Scribes and Pharisees, for people that teach such things Matthew 23:13-39 ..................

Thats an interesting read a good eye daq.
But I see something else, I don't believe that the sour grape proverb was ever inspired by God. Notice His opening statement through Ezek

Ezek 18:1-2
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 2 “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel,

Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Now I would like all of you people that have heard your paster tell you that Romans 11:25 means that God has blinded the nation of Israel until the end times when the "miss placed" 70th week is said the be fulfilled, to consider what I'm about to say.

Romans 11:25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

I ask you this, is this a generational blindness that your pasters are teaching you? Can you not clearly see the pasters teaching such things are simply repeating the errors of Israels past? Clearly God is not at all pleased with this proverb,

Ezek 18:2-3 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Just be careful who you listen to, and believe only what the Lord has placed upon your heart, search the scriptures to see what you have heard is true.
That proverb is being used every day through out most of the churches in the US.

The really sad thing about it is, most people believe it

And their about to go into captivity

Just as it happened in the past, please remember the whore and what was written on her forehead
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

Babylon that's what was written,

The very same thing Ezek and Jer were warning Israel about, captivity

In Babylon

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.

Those that teach that the proper understanding of Romans 11:25 is that Israel has been blinded, for 2000 years now, thats what they say and teach.
That my friend is using the the parable of the sour grapes. That Gods has blinded Israels generations, not because of what they have done but apparently because of what their fathers did. He "God" goes on to clearly point out that He will not curse a man because of his fathers sin or rejection of the truth. Thats not what modern dispensationolist teach. They use the parable of the sour grapes. I hope you understand my point now.

God clearly warned that this "proverb" should never be spoken, "used" yet here we are with thousands of ministers basing NT teachings on the same proverb. It's to bad Arnie because there is much more that could probably be learned form this starting point, it echos Daniel and Rev the captivity in Babylon but If some choose to continue in the use of the proverb just as it was for Jer and Ezek in their day, we can not move any closer to the Lord or the greater understanding and connection this has to EVERYTHING.

Fair enough Rex ..... I did not know the proverb was used as you say ..... I have never heard of it before ... and I have never used it myself

It puzzles me why everyone keeps saying I am a dispensationalist ..... I am not

All I claim to do is read and understand Romans exactly the way it is written..

It is my understanding that these endless Israel debates originate because of some people who do not believe Romans

One other thing ..... I made a mistake earlier saying Ephesians was to a Jewish audience .... we had been flopping back and forth between Galatians and Ephesians and probably meant to say Galatians .... I acknowledge Ephesians was to Gentiles.

But I still say that neither Galatians or Ephesians changes anything in Romans .... I think they are two different subjects altogether.

I am probably done with this discussion for a while but would like to summarize my position as follows....

I feel that salvation is only through Jesus Christ .... whether Jew or Gentile

I see modern Israel as a nation in unbelief and disobedient to the gospel and to God

I feel the miraculous survival of the scattered Jew for 2000 years is authored by God

I feel the return of the Jew to Israel is also a fulfillment of prophecy

I feel God is not finished with Israel in the future

I feel God honors his irrevocable covenant with Israel ... in spite of themselves

I do not feel the Catholics and protestants have replaced Israel

There is also an overlooked wildcard in all of this ..... the Messianic (Christian) Jew

There are about 120,000 in the world who have persevered for 2000 years ... independent from Western Christianity .

They feel they are the surviving remnant known as Israel

They may very well be correct

 

[Rex]

Whether you realize it or not you are a dispensationalists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Distinction between Israel and the Church
All dispensationalists hold to a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. Israel is an ethnic nation[8] consisting of Hebrews (Israelites), beginning with Abraham and continuing in existence to the present. The church consists of all saved individuals in this present dispensation—i.e., from the "birth of the Church" in Acts until the time of the Rapture.[9] The distinction between Israel and the Church is not mutually exclusive, as there is a recognized overlap between the two.[1]:295 The overlap consists of Jewish Christians (such as Peter and Paul - although the Apostle Paul was also a Roman citizen, by birth, he was of the tribe of Benjamin and a strong Jewish nationalist in heart (Rom 9:1-3)) who are ethnically Jewish and also have faith in Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists also believe that toward the end of the Tribulation, Israel as a nation will turn and embrace Jesus as their messiah right before his second coming during the Great Tribulation. The spectrum of teaching on Israel and the Church may be depicted as below:[10]

Classical dispensationalists refer to the present day Church as a "parenthesis" or temporary interlude in the progress of Israel's prophesied history.

[11]Progressive dispensationalism "softens" the Church/Israel distinction by seeing some Old Testament promises as expanded by the New Testament to include the Church. However, progressives never view this expansion as replacing promises to its original audience, Israel.[12]

Covenant Theology is the alternative view to dispensationalism that holds that God has one people Israel and the promises to Israel made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the new Israel, and the object of Abraham's hope. Dispensationalists have often criticized Covenant Theology as being identical with what they call "Replacement Theology" or

Supersessionism, the concept that the Church has replaced Israel. However, in Covenant Theology, the church is not a replacement for the nation of Israel but an expansion of it where Gentiles are "grafted into" the existing covenant community. Jewish Christians are included in the spiritual Israel.[13]

I didn't make-up these descriptive names but we're all forced at some point to use them, it's perhaps best to understand the basic definitions.
It would seem the more man "progresses" <---LOL the more segregated he gets. The first Christians only basically had to deal with the distinction between Jews and Gentiles. Today it gets much more complicated because of continued segregation, <<<--------- >>>is Christ divided?