The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

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daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
dragonfly said:
Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


The Deliver did come out of Sion.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How did He get there?


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


He came out of Jerusalem to be crucified, was buried nearby, and after His resurrection stood on the Mount of Olives many times, the Victor over every corrupting influence to human nature. His name is like ointment poured forth; therefore do the virgins love Him. (Song of songs 1:3)


Jeremiah 31:7 For thus saith the Lord;
Sing with gladness for Jacob,
and shout among the chief of the nations:
publish ye, praise ye, and say,
O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.


13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
both young men and old together:

Lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai ~
for I will turn their mourning into joy,
and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
+10! :)
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

Many are called but few are chosen.
Feb 23, 2013
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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, mjrhealth.


Being a Jew IS special. It's just not something one should place his faith in when it comes to one's reconciliation to God!

Ponder on these verses for a while; mull them over in your mind and consider just what they are saying:

Romans 2:17-3:4
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar
; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV


Don't you see? Paul was not changing the terminology, as some teach, that a "true Jew" is one who is "circumcised in the heart." He was simply teaching that circumcision in the flesh IS NOT ENOUGH! One must ALSO have the b'rit muwlah in the core of one's thinking, cutting away the "foreskin" of one's evil and sin within!

Note that in the VERY NEXT VERSE (3:1) he goes back to using "Jew" just as is commonly, normally interpreted, again! The natural Jew has the advantage of being a member of "the people of the Book!"

Paul also never gave up his well-earned title as a Parush (Pharisee)! Although, he tempered his pride in that accomplishment, it was still an accomplishment and a great honor among the Jews. He was a rabbi of great learning and study; he was a "Separatist" (for that is what "Parush" means) and took pride (without being prideful) in the relationship he had with God, being "separated" unto Him and for Him!

Many of you would do the same thing (even if you wouldn't say so or make such a claim). That's why we must constantly remind ourselves that it is ALL of God! That there is nothing good in us whereby we ingratiate ourselves to God. We must "remember the pit from which we were dug" and keep ourselves humble and thank God daily for the awesome mercy and grace He has shown us.

Acts 23:1-10
23 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
KJV


Acts 26:1-20
26 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers (the Resurrection):
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
KJV


Philippians 3:1-16
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
KJV


So, he could have boasted, but he chose not to do so, because he had caused MANY people of "the Way" to be put to death.
Mate! You're making your boast in the flesh. The very thing Paul condemned. It's called Judaizing.
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Rex .... there you go again .... you know very well God blinded the minds of some of Israel ... you simply refuse to believe those verses in Romans 11 .

Your argument should be with the bible .... and not with me.

I am puzzled why you avoid the verses that are contrary to your opinion .

Is it possible that you suffer from some of the afflictions of blindness as well. ? . (I am not trying to be rude to you sir) .... but I fail to see how that " blindness" can be any advantage to you or anyone.

........................

One last time I will let the bible spell it out for you.
And rather than have you attack the NIV I will use the authorized KJV

.....................

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved:

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: when I shall take away their sins for this is my covenant unto them,


...........................

Obviously there are 2 things which must first occur before ... "All Israel is saved"

1. ...... the full number of Gentiles must have come in

2. ..... a Deliverer must come out of Sion
It's pretty easy Arnie, you see there blindness is because of unbelief, it is not something God wished upon them.

And secondly I know that in this case blindness & unbelief are the same thing, but you go way beyond that.
You actually believe the Jews and Gods promise to them is so binding that unbelieving Jews that have died will go to be with the Lord.
You also believe they are blind in unbelief because of God made them that way, What God does is blinds the already unbelieving heart.
An example would be Pharaoh in Egypt


Arnie Manitoba said:
I expect that some day most (if not all) of Israel will believe in Messiah .... and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
Rex said:
What God does is blinds the already unbelieving heart.
An example would be Pharaoh in Egypt
jiggyfly said:
Got any scripture?
I do ~ :)

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
12. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


The above applies not only to "Jews" or "ancient Israelites", (which it seems the "partially blind" are not currently in a position to locate) but rather applies to everyone. Anyone who does not perceive and understand Torah then still has a vail upon his or her own heart and mind according to the passage. Likewise the vail will not be removed until the heart turns to the Lord in true repentance. Therefore those who proclaim that "Torah is abolished" or "done away" are likewise under the same vail of partial blindness. Likewise it may be surmised, (if one is so bold as to project such a thing) that the same are not truly "in Messiah" for having taken the path of least resistance, the wide road, and easiest way around the narrow gate by climbing up into the sheepfold some other way. Yet the vail is done away only in Yeshua and therefore the vail remains. The point is therefore not to "abolish" Torah but rather to understand it according to the Testimony, doctrines, and interpretations of Torah given freely through the Master in the Gospel accounts, (the Father spoke through the Son). And whosoever will come is offered to drink of the fountain of the water of Life freely in Messiah Yeshua. Those who refuse will remain under the vail of the eyes and mind of the flesh and likewise true understanding is purposely hidden from the eyes of their hearts and minds. For how long, O Lord? Until their cities be wasted without inhabitant, and their houses without a man, (harpazo, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God) and their land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of their land. Yet in it shall be a tenth, and that one shall be brought back, (for the second death has no power over that one). :lol:
 

Purity

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daq said:
I do ~ :)

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
12. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


The above applies not only to "Jews" or "ancient Israelites", (which it seems the "partially blind" are not currently in a position to locate) but rather applies to everyone. Anyone who does not perceive and understand Torah then still has a vail upon his or her own heart and mind according to the passage. Likewise the vail will not be removed until the heart turns to the Lord in true repentance. Therefore those who proclaim that "Torah is abolished" or "done away" are likewise under the same vail of partial blindness. Likewise it may be surmised, (if one is so bold as to project such a thing) that the same are not truly "in Messiah" for having taken the path of least resistance, the wide road, and easiest way around the narrow gate by climbing up into the sheepfold some other way. Yet the vail is done away only in Yeshua and therefore the vail remains. The point is therefore not to "abolish" Torah but rather to understand it according to the Testimony, doctrines, and interpretations of Torah given freely through the Master in the Gospel accounts, (the Father spoke through the Son). And whosoever will come is offered to drink of the fountain of the water of Life freely in Messiah Yeshua. Those who refuse will remain under the vail of the eyes and mind of the flesh and likewise true understanding is purposely hidden from the eyes of their hearts and minds. For how long, O Lord? Until their cities be wasted without inhabitant, and their houses without a man, (harpazo, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God) and their land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of their land. Yet in it shall be a tenth, and that one shall be brought back, (for the second death has no power over that one). :lol:
Aptly put Daq.

"And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with Him"

As the glory began to fade, Moses veiled his face to hide the fact. Paul draws upon this incident to show that it typed the manner in which Jewry failed to appreciate that the glory of the Mosaic covenant would fade away, to be replaced by one more glorious. He stated that "Moses put a veil over his face" with the result that "the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished; but their minds were blinded; for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old covenant, which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts. Nevertheless when it [rather, a man] shall turn to the Lord the veil shall be taken away" (2 Co 3:13-18). The veiled face of Moses, therefore, prophetically foreshadowed the veiled state of Israel after the flesh when Christ appeared in their midst. The people did not comprehend that the glory of the Mosaic ordinance was a fading glory, destined to pass away. Because of that lack of comprehension, the veil remains to this day upon the hearts of natural Israel. That state will continue until the return of the Lord when the veils of ignorance that obscure the understanding of both Jews and Gentiles will be removed.

Ref: Rom 11:25,26; Isa 25:7.

I should also make a comment regarding the OP.

Rom 11:25

"That blindness in part is happened to Israel" - "Blindness" is from the Greek porosis, signifying hardness, stubbornness; covered with a callus, "metaphorical of a dulled spiritual perception" (Vine). The national blindness to the covenant of grace, however, is only "in part" (Rom 11:7 key verse). The Greek word for "in part" is meros, which indicates: a division or share. The NASB translates it: "a partial hardening"; the RSV has: "a hardening has come upon a part". The blindness is therefore not a complete nor permanent affliction but is limited to only one division of Jewry: those who refuse to accept the sonship of Jesus Christ, and who have remained stubbornly unresponsive to God's will. The "revealed secret" (the "mystery") is that such ignorance by Israel would remain until Christ comes to restore the nation to its former glory.

Purity
 

Rex

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jiggyfly said:
Got any scripture?
Ex 7:13-23
Ex 8:15-32
Ex 9:7
Ex 10:20

The reason that God hardened his unbelieving heart was to demonstrate Himself to Israel, Romans 9:17 That His name might be proclaimed through out the earth.

Now If you will, isn't that exactly what Paul is saying, Gods using unbelieving Israel as He did Pharaoh. Until what, the fullness of Gentiles has come in. The second part of the promise given to Abraham Gal 3:8 "unto all the nations of the world" His name is proclaimed Romans 9:17. Paul them says in Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved. meaning the promise to all nations given to Abraham in Gen. What does this mean it means Romans 9:6-7 That the Israel that was promised salvation is not the blood line and the Israel of salvation foreseen by God has always included all Nations "gentiles" Gal 3:14-16

Now can you who believe differently show how your interpretation correlates with other scriptures?

Read a bit further daq
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 does not say that God hardens the hearts of people or veils their hearts or blinds them; rather, this passage says, “the god of this world” does those things.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JB_.

JB_ said:
Mate! You're making your boast in the flesh. The very thing Paul condemned. It's called Judaizing.
No, sir, I am not. You have misunderstood the error to which Paul objected that might be erroneously called "Judaizing." That error is trusting in DEEDS of the flesh to make one acceptable to God rather than trusting in God's declaration of righteousness for the individual through faith.

The problem was not that they were trusting in their heritage; it was that they were trusting in their GOOD WORKS, the DEEDS of the flesh, the KEEPING OF THE LAW! THAT was the sin of the P'rushiym (the Pharisees)! Read it again:


Philippians 3:2-11
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
KJV

Romans 8:1-17
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
KJV

It's just like Yeshua` taught:



Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV


It wasn't because of his being a Jew or a Pharisee that caused him to go to his house abased and unjustified! It was that he was trusting in HIS OWN MERITS! The publican - a Jewish tax collector for the Romans, notorious for "legally" skimming from the people as long as Rome got their full taxes due - realized that there was NO merit he could claim! He "fell on the mercy of the Court," so to speak, and said, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." By recognizing himself a sinner, humbling himself, and asking God for His mercy, that man went home JUSTIFIED BY GOD and exalted!

If you've been listening to any other teachings, it is possible that the teacher doesn't KNOW THIS! There are two different kinds of people in the world, and the line extends THROUGH the entities called the "churches" as well as through the Jews and through the "unbelieving Gentiles," as well: There are some who believe that there are good works that they can do to appease God and be accepted by Him. Then, there are those who KNOW that there's nothing good in themselves and that NO AMOUNT of good works are EVER going to appease God, and they come humbly to God's throne in prayer and ask for His intervention!

Shalom, Chayaal Meshuwchrar.

veteran said:
Christ's parable of the tares of the field is about the devil's servants here in this world as the "tares". In horticulture, a tare is like a weed that looks just like wheat. While it grows it looks just... like real wheat and you cannot distinguish it from real wheat. Only when it comes to maturity during harvest time does the tare exhibit a black bud on the end of it, showing that it is not real wheat. That's why at harvest the tares are separated from the real wheat, and the tares thrown into the fire.

I know all about "tares" or "darnel." The problem is that it is not the "devil's servants HERE IN THIS WORLD!" They're the "devil's children IN THE KINGDOM!"

Christ Jesus' EXPLANATION of the parable of the 'tares'. There is NO OTHER explanation. His disciples asked Him to EXPLAIN it, and He did; here it is:

Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."


Multitude gone away at this point. Jesus and His disciples in private here now. They ask Him to declare the parable of the tares to them. He does...

37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The "good seed" represents God's people. Jesus is represented by that "Son of man".

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Here, the "good seed" is NOT just "representing God's people"; they are the "CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM!"

The "field" represents the world, the good seed those of Christ's Kingdom.

But the "tares"... represent the children of darkness, Satan's elect here on earth.

No, sir. You are adding to the Scriptures! The tares or darnel do NOT "represent the children of darkness, Satan's elect here on earth!" They are the "children of the wicked one!!!" Get it right, or you are BOUND to get the whole thing wrong!

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The enemy who sowed... the evil tares is the devil himself. They belong to him.

The harvest time is the END of this world, and the reapers are Christ's angels.

I don't have too much problem with this part EXCEPT with your understanding of "the END of this world." The Greek words are "sunteleia aioonos" or the "full completion of the AGE!" That doesn't happen when the Messiah arrives; it happens AFTER the Millennium - the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom or God's Kingdom under the Representation of the Messiah. There are still ONE THOUSAND YEARS TO GO before the "tears are wiped away!!!"

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Just as tares in real horticulture are separated from good wheat and the tares thrown into fire, likewise it will be at the end of this world for the servants of Satan. They will go into the "lake of fire" with him, per the end of Rev.20.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)


At Christ's coming, He will send His angels and gather first the tares out of His Kingdom, just like He said is done to real tares in horticulture.

No, sir! The end of Revelation 20 does NOT occur "at Christ's coming!" It happens ONE THOUSAND YEARS AFTER Christ's Coming!

Thus - the "tares" = the children of darkness sowed in among God's people (the good wheat).

Again, no. The tares are children of the wicked one sowed in among the children of the Kingdom during the first 1000 years of the Kingdom of God that the Messiah establishes at His Coming! They are the "plants" within the Messiah's Kingdom, His Government!

The rest of this nonsense is gibberish. Who CARES who the Kenites WERE? They will NOT affect His Kingdom!

Judg 2:18-23
18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)


Who were the Kenites???

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
(KJV)

The Kenites were foreigners that lived among the nations of Canaan. King Saul of Israel spared them...

1 Sam 15:5-6
5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
(KJV)


1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)

By the time Chronicles was written, there they were, in the lands of Judah at Jabez, a location near Bethlehem. And they had worked their way up into the status as SCRIBES IN CARE OF GOD'S HOLY WRIT.

Our Heavenly Father caused that because of Israel's rebellions against Him, and to use those "tares" to prove Israel by. That is still... in effect for today, and is part of what Apostle Paul's "mystery of iniquity" is about. It is... God's Word, as written, regardless who wants to deny it. And I reckon those of Judah (JEWS) would want to deny it the most!
Bro', you have GOT to understand that the Kingdom BEGINS with the arrival of the Messiah! That's NOT the "end of the world!" Without that basic understanding, you're not only going to mess up on the parables of Matthew 13, but almost EVERYTHING that is taught by the Messiah in the Gospels! It's a fundamental understanding upon which Yeshua`s teachings were made, the histories of His first advent are built, and the very GOAL of prophecy is founded! Get that wrong, and EVERYTHING will be wrong!
 

daq

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Purity said:
Aptly put Daq.

"And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with Him"

As the glory began to fade, Moses veiled his face to hide the fact. Paul draws upon this incident to show that it typed the manner in which Jewry failed to appreciate that the glory of the Mosaic covenant would fade away, to be replaced by one more glorious. He stated that "Moses put a veil over his face" with the result that "the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished; but their minds were blinded; for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old covenant, which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts. Nevertheless when it [rather, a man] shall turn to the Lord the veil shall be taken away" (2 Co 3:13-18). The veiled face of Moses, therefore, prophetically foreshadowed the veiled state of Israel after the flesh when Christ appeared in their midst. The people did not comprehend that the glory of the Mosaic ordinance was a fading glory, destined to pass away. Because of that lack of comprehension, the veil remains to this day upon the hearts of natural Israel. That state will continue until the return of the Lord when the veils of ignorance that obscure the understanding of both Jews and Gentiles will be removed.

Ref: Rom 11:25,26; Isa 25:7.

I should also make a comment regarding the OP.

Rom 11:25

"That blindness in part is happened to Israel" - "Blindness" is from the Greek porosis, signifying hardness, stubbornness; covered with a callus, "metaphorical of a dulled spiritual perception" (Vine). The national blindness to the covenant of grace, however, is only "in part" (Rom 11:7 key verse). The Greek word for "in part" is meros, which indicates: a division or share. The NASB translates it: "a partial hardening"; the RSV has: "a hardening has come upon a part". The blindness is therefore not a complete nor permanent affliction but is limited to only one division of Jewry: those who refuse to accept the sonship of Jesus Christ, and who have remained stubbornly unresponsive to God's will. The "revealed secret" (the "mystery") is that such ignorance by Israel would remain until Christ comes to restore the nation to its former glory.

Purity
Glad you included "the veiled state of Israel after the flesh" because "the flesh" is the key to understanding this analogy of the flesh which passes away like the grass of the field. It was the SKIN of the face of Moses which was "done away" or came to pass away: the tabernacle-tent of the flesh, the skin of his own face, which shone so bright with glory the sons of Israel could not look to it so that it had to be vailed. In Messiah likewise the eyes and mind of the flesh are done away and what remains is soul transformed into Spirit in Messiah and his and our Father. :)

Rex said:
Ex 7:13-23
Ex 8:15-32
Ex 9:7
Ex 10:20

The reason that God hardened his unbelieving heart was to demonstrate Himself to Israel, Romans 9:17 That His name might be proclaimed through out the earth.

Now If you will, isn't that exactly what Paul is saying, Gods using unbelieving Israel as He did Pharaoh. Until what, the fullness of Gentiles has come in. The second part of the promise given to Abraham Gal 3:8 "unto all the nations of the world" His name is proclaimed Romans 9:17. Paul them says in Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved. meaning the promise to all nations given to Abraham in Gen. What does this mean it means Romans 9:6-7 That the Israel that was promised salvation is not the blood line and the Israel of salvation foreseen by God has always included all Nations "gentiles" Gal 3:14-16

Now can you who believe differently show how your interpretation correlates with other scriptures?

Read a bit further daq
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 does not say that God hardens the hearts of people or veils their hearts or blinds them; rather, this passage says, “the god of this world” does those things.
Remember: "I have said, Ye are 'elohim; and all of you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." And likewise; "Thou shalt have no other 'elohim before me." Therefore he who puts himself before the Most High blinds himself with the god of this world which is himself and his old man nature the flesh. When he puts himself in his mind as a god his own fleshly mindset has become his vail even though he knows it not while thinking himself to be a wise one and a mighty one. Thus, the people of the prince who was to come are the Israelites, and they are the city and the temple each one himself or herself, and in their partial hardness of heart and partial blindness they are even to this day and here in this place defiling and corrupting their own body-temple-sanctuary cities. Paul clearly gives the warning in multiple places to all Israelites: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body!" As implied previously: Until how long shall they be blinded? Until they have destroyed everything that is given them; both their cities and their little miqdash-chapel-sanctuaries which they are defiling even now, and which are not even their own but they were left in charge of while the Master is away in a far journey. And when the power of the holy people is completely shattered only then shall they be capable of hearing, or seeing, or perceiving anything that the Most High has spoken concerning grace, mercy, and the salvation of walking in the Light and Truth of the commandments of Messiah and the Father. And when their carcasses are slain, and given to the fowls of heaven, and the eyes the flesh burnt down to the ground, and the mind of the flesh melted in the midst of their own little personal cities, and their carcasses of their spirit kings removed far away, then shall the Deliverer come out of Zion, unto each in his or her own appointed times, and none shall be alone in his appointed times, and then truly a son shall be birthed into the Kingdom of above, and the Tabernacle of God shall be with men, and the son shall be clothed from on high, and behold, a nqebah-female, (New Jerusalem Covenant Tent) shall encompass a geber-warrior-man, (Jeremiah 31:22) like a bride having been prepared for the adornment of her husband. :)
 

veteran

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If the true Bible student who is intent upon listening to God in His Word instead of men, wants to study further about these crept in unawares, especially within Israel's history, there's more. Joshua 9 is another example of Canaanites joined in with the children of Israel. Also see 1 Kings 9 where during Solomon's reign the left-overs from the Canaanite nations worked as bondservants within Israel. Also see Ezra 2 about the Nethinims (later name for them, which means 'temple servants'), and the priests which were joined with the "house of Judah" in their captivity to Babylon and then returning with the small remant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi to Jerusalem afterwards. Ezra 2 shows the genealogy of those priests could not be found, and so they were put from the priesthood.

Question should be, HOW... did those foreigners of the Canaanites even get... into... Israel's priesthood in the first place?

Also see Ezra 8 where Ezra looks around at the children of Israel returning to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity, and he notices NONE of the sons of Levi were among them. So Ezra sends Iddo, the head NETHINIM (temple servant) back to Babylon, to bring priests of Levi which is who God ordained in the priesthood of that time.

Then in Ezra 9, he is told how during the Babylon captivity many of the children of Israel had taken WIVES of the Canaanites, and had chlldren by them, and that the leaders were chief in this transgression (God commanded Israel to not marry into the Canaanites, nor bring them into Israel because they would turn Israel's heart to worshipping pagan gods). After this was revealed to Ezra, the people promised to put away their Canaanite wives and children born by them (separate from them). How successful do you think they were in that?

So it's like God said early on in His Word to Israel. They disobeyed Him with His command to wipe out the specific nations of Canaan that He told them (execute His judgment), so He said in Judges 2 & 3 He would thus use those foreigners to test Israel with, and would not remove them anymore.

This is the one huge... reason that the children of Israel kept falling away later into Baal worship of false gods, and it is still in effect for today. It's what the tares in the parable of the tares is especially about.
 

Purity

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daq said:
In Messiah likewise the eyes and mind of the flesh are done away and what remains is soul transformed into Spirit in Messiah and his and our Father. :)
It's off topic but the soul is the living creature - the total sum of it. What remains is the treasure in earthen vessels 2 Cor 4:7 by which the Sons of God eagerly wait for its power to change this vile body in a spiritual body. ;)
 

daq

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Purity said:
It's off topic but the soul is the living creature - the total sum of it. What remains is the treasure in earthen vessels 2 Cor 4:7 by which the Sons of God eagerly wait for its power to change this vile body in a spiritual body. ;)
Spirit can likewise mean breath-wind, (doctrine) thus, anyone raised up in Messiah should certainly be able to Live with that. :lol:
 

Purity

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daq said:
Spirit can likewise mean breath-wind, (doctrine) thus, anyone raised up in Messiah should certainly be able to Live with that. :lol:
My comment was to ensure the false teaching of an immortal soul was not put forth as truth. :)
 

daq

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Purity said:
My comment was to ensure the false teaching of an immortal soul was not put forth as truth. :)
Yes it probably would end up way off topic; oh well, maybe next time, (Genesis 3:20, 1 Corinthians 15:44-47, 1 Timothy 2:14-15). :p
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Rex said:
Arnie even takes it a step further, believing that all the Jews that have died in unbelief for the last 2000 years will receive salvation, on top of being intentionally blinded "kept in unbelief" by God for 2000 years , because he/they believe that God has intentionally blinded them it's an easy step to presume that they will be saved as well.

Let me correct you Rex ..... I have never said all the unbelieving Jews have salvation as we know it. It appears you have misunderstood me.

From the start I said that Paul said in Romans "all Israel will be saved" .... God is not done with them yet.

I have constantly stated that God still has future plans for Israel ..... and some of them are favorable.

I have never once claimed to know the mechanics of how he saves all Israel ..... but i expect it has to be through Christ somehow.

And as I have said it over and over again ..... God does it for His own reasons and His Holy name ..... not necessarily that Israel deserves it.

You keep demanding verses and I keep insisting Romans contains all the necessary verses.

But I think you will find Ezekiel 36 lays it out exactly the way I have been saying all along.

I reproduce below my comments from the dispensation thread

Arnie Manitoba said:
Unbelieving Israel was scattered in AD 70 ..... regathered in 1948 .... and now God will do favorable things For Israel .... whether we like it or not .... and as i have said many times .... He does it for his own reasons and His Holy name ......... here is a glimpse of the next dispensation for Israel


Ezekiel 36

16 Again the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the Lord’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!
33 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’
37 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Let me correct you Rex ..... I have never said all the unbelieving Jews have salvation as we know it. It appears you have misunderstood me.
Arnie I hadn't posted in this thread in weeks, during which time it became a discussion for other topics ect. I just happened to look in and found your post addressing me and quoting the OP of this thread. Arnie I not to certain you even understand the principles of salvation and to address your statement you did not say that all unbelieving Jews will be saved, but yet you believe that all Israel "decedents of Abraham" will be saved.

Now let me correct you, where is the salvation message that says unbelievers are saved?

Here's the post from page 8 that you decided to direct at me out of the blue, were you hoping I wouldn't see it or find it? Like I said I hadn't posted in here for weeks. I'll highlight in red the points that make me shake my head. In blue highlight you properly understand and put in quotation (if the Jews do not continue in un-beleif.)

You contradict yourself and present a message contrary to salvation in red.
Arnie Manitoba said:
Rex ... I am not wanting to prolong the agony but have snipped the above from your opening post.

Originally the Gentiles were not the recipients of the promise .... they were un-godly pagans for the most part ...... but after hearing the Gospel they became believers as we all know

We also know many in Israel were not believers.

We know God broke off the branch of the olive tree (Israel) containing the unbelieving Israelites

In its place we know God grafted a branch into the olive tree (Israel) for us Gentiles to partake of the promise along with the Jews ..... (we did not become the Jews .... or Israel)

I think we could all agree on most of the above ...... but here is where we all get upset and mixed up ...

God said he will re-attach the "broken off branch" some day in the future (if the Jews do not continue in un-beleif.) <<<---Correct but in red you say just the opposite

It appears it will be retroactive to include all the Jewish unbelievers since the time of Christ

A Jew can become a believer today and he does not need the broken branch grafted back in to be saved ..... so the re-attached branch must be for the historical unbeleiving jews up until that time

I expect that some day most (if not all) of Israel will believe in Messiah .... and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"

Sounds rather convoluted .... I know ..... but we are clearly told as much in Romans 11:16

If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

A careful reading of Romans lays it out systematically and better than I do

it should not be difficult for us to understand

If we want to.
I suggest you start attending Sunday school Arnie. In a church other than where you now listen to such nonsense and learn the basic salvation message all over again.

Unbelievers receiving salvation, who teaches this and more tragically who believes it?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rex.

Rex said:
Arnie I hadn't posted in this thread in weeks, during which time it became a discussion for other topics ect. I just happened to look in and found your post addressing me and quoting the OP of this thread. Arnie I not to certain you even understand the principles of salvation and to address your statement you did not say that all unbelieving Jews will be saved, but yet you believe that all Israel "decedents of Abraham" will be saved.

Now let me correct you, where is the salvation message that says unbelievers are saved?

Here's the post from page 8 that you decided to direct at me out of the blue, were you hoping I wouldn't see it or find it? Like I said I hadn't posted in here for weeks. I'll highlight in red the points that make me shake my head. In blue highlight you properly understand and put in quotation (if the Jews do not continue in un-beleif.)

You contradict yourself and present a message contrary to salvation in red.

I suggest you start attending Sunday school Arnie. In a church other than where you now listen to such nonsense and learn the basic salvation message all over again.

Unbelievers receiving salvation, who teaches this and more tragically who believes it?
You need to pay closer attention to the prophecies and quit thinking you'll get everything you'll ever need in Sunday School!

Arnie is not wrong. What you are not understanding is that God gives His people, Isra'elites - even those newly resurrected - a chance to accept Him as the Messiah of God!


Zech 12:1-14
12:1 A prophecy, the word of Adonai concerning Isra’el — here is the message from Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:

2 “I will make Yerushalayim a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.

9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB

These are not four names that are contemporaries; they are all IN THE LINEAGE OF THE MESSIAH, YESHUA`! How is that possible if not for the RESURRECTION?! Thus, they are resurrected FIRST BEFORE they mourn for the Messiah as "an only son" or "a firstborn son!" And, they mourn for Him BECAUSE these are His ANCESTORS! Indeed, those who mourn for Him "as an only son" do so because their only son was His ancestor! Those who mourn for Him "as a firstborn son" do so because their firstborn son was His ancestor!

It was to THIS prophecy that Yeshua` referred when He said,...


Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV


KJV: all the tribes of the earth =
Greek: pasai hai fulai tees gees =
Hebrew: haa'aarets mishpaachowt mishpaachowt =
English: the-Land every family =
KJV: (And) the land (shall mourn), every family (apart)

It was to THIS prophecy that Yochanan (John) referred when he said,...


Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

KJV: all kindreds of the earth =

Greek: pasai hai fulai tees gees =
Hebrew: haa'aarets mishpaachowt mishpaachowt =
English: the-Land every family =
KJV: (And) the land (shall mourn), every family (apart)

So, now you know some additional information; what are you going to do with it?
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
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UK
Hi jiggyfly,

Rex said,
What God does is blinds the already unbelieving heart.
An example would be Pharaoh in Egypt

You asked,
Got any scripture?
'the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not' (from 2 Corinthinans 4:4)

'darkness hath blinded his eyes' (1 John 2:11)

The reason darkness has blinded his eyes, is that he is neither obeying the commandment of the Lord to love, nor walking in the light of the Lord.

The fact that he is not walking in the light, shows that he is not following Jesus. His faith is in some other god of darkness, which he IS following.


The confirmatory factor in the thesis of the apostles is that it is a medical fact that unless light enters the eye of a baby after it is born, it cannot see. So when Paul talks about us being translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son, he is saying far more than a theory.

Hi Retrobyter,

I refer to a comment you made in a much earlier post in this thread, as I have not had time to read all the posts to date. You said that we become an honorary member of the tribe of Judah. I do not agree one bit.

Judah was chosen to be the tribe from which Messiah would come, but we become members of Him (in one sense as expounded by Paul), and we become co-heirs with Him of the whole inheritance, because it is in Him that we are sons of God. We do not become sons of Jacob - the man of flesh.

We do not become sons of Israel. We become part of Israel Himself.

We are those over whom God has prevailed completely. We have agreed with Him about our condition, and we have accepted His solution to it.


Can you see the difference?
daq, thanks. I am humbled by your encouraging acknowledgement. :)
 

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2011
2,650
137
63
72
Manitoba Canada
So Rex .... do you have an opinion about Ezekiel 36 ???

You will find it lines up with what I have been saying all along

I realize it is difficult to have it plunked into the middle of our Christian mindset .... but we cannot deny God has future plans for Israel .... and some of it is favorable.

Those plans cannot be applied to the Western Gentile Christian Church