The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[7angels]

The one thing I definitely am not is confused on this issue of Bible prophecy.

i am not arguing for or against this op but anyone who says they definitely know bible prophesy without a doubt are people we should probably avoid listening too. the Word tells us that pride comes before a fall. it is better to listen to a humble person then to listen to someone who refuses to listen but is always chattering.

God bless

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Whether you realize it or not you are a dispensationalists.

You still have it wrong

God is the original dispensationalist

In the purest sense .... if we entirely remove dispensation from the bible then we would be correct to go and build an ark to be saved like Noah did.

Or slaughter our best animal on an altar in jerusalem to pay for our sins

Or live a life under the law as Moses did

But we all know that is not the case whatsoever.

Everything changed for israel when jesus came

Then everything changed for the gentile when salvation was made available to us

Right now we are in the church age .... the times of the Gentiles .... Jesus has been building his body of believers for almost 2000 years now.

One day the times of the gentiles will come to fulfillment .. then the focus is back on israel and the tribulation

Then a 1000 year reign of Christ

Then a new heaven and earth and eternal life with the Lord.

Those are just some of the different dispensations God has used in his dealings with mankind

If you dont believe that .... you might as well go build an ark or something

What's it going to be Rex ?????

 

[Rex]

No Arnie I let the bible dictate and lay the foundation for interpreting scripture when its available. Like Paul bringing the understanding that the promise to Abraham was not unto the decedents but unto the believers. And that God foresaw the Gentiles being included in that promise given to Abraham,

And I also believe Ezek and Jer when the say the parable of sour grapes is not to be referred to as a way God deals with Israel.
And when I see dispensationlist using this parable or its meaning rather, in interpreting the blindness that has now been placed on Israel for many generations, spanning 2000 years I choose to believe the bible, it's really as simple as that.

As for building an ark for yourself it would seem that is exactly what dispensationist are doing in-spite of the clear writings of the NT. That why you don't have a leg to stand on or any biblical references to support your view.

But I see something else, I don't believe that the sour grape proverb was ever inspired by God. Notice His opening statement through Ezek

Ezek 18:1-2
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 2 “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel,

Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Now I would like all of you people that have heard your paster tell you that Romans 11:25 means that God has blinded the nation of Israel to consider what I'm about to say.
Are they using the meaning of the parable of sour grapes?
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’
Are they teaching that God has cursed Israel for many generations spanning 2000 years now?

I ask you this, is this a generational blindness that your pasters are teaching you? That a blindness has been exacted on Israel for 2000 years now and how many generations would that be. Can you not clearly see the pasters teaching such things are simply repeating the errors of Israels past? Ezek 18:1-32 & Jer 31:28-34 Clearly God is not at all pleased with this proverb, and the modern teachers that teach a many generational cure on Israel "blindness" is contrary to scripture. Ezek and Jer were the prophets sent to the Israel and Judah before and during their captivity.

Ezek 18:2-3 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Just be careful who you listen to, and believe only what the Lord has placed upon your heart, search the scriptures to see what you have heard is true.
That proverb is being used every day through out most of the churches in the US.

The really sad thing about it is, most people believe it

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Rex ..... every time you are cornered you sidestep the issue and replay all your rants about dispensationalists .....

I am convinced that is all you want to do. It is like your mind is slammed shut and you cannot open it again

And if you cannot open it .... I know anything I say will not open it.

Feel free to believe whatever you want ..... doesn't matter to me any more.

 

[Rex]

Feel free to post some verse to support your belief

I'm all for discussing scripture but I'm not to big on isolated personal opinion.

Here the thing Arnie since I reentered this thread you have not provided a single verse to support your view, I went back several pages and you do the same with everyone, you simple continue to disagree with everyone yet offer no biblical reason for what you believe. And you have me cornered? with what? your disagreement?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Feel free to post some verse to support your belief

Here the thing Arnie since I reentered this thread you have not provided a single verse to support your view, I went back several pages and you do the same with everyone, you simple continue to disagree with everyone yet offer no biblical reason for what you believe. And you have me cornered? with what? your disagreement?

Why do you keep asking for some single verse from somewhere ?? It is not required.

i keep repeating that Romans is clearly written and self explanatory .... and what do you do in response ... you run and hide behind obscure unrelated verses in Ezekiel for example.

Never once will you go line by line thru Romans and make your case .... because you know if you do your case falls apart .

It is you that avoids scripture Rex .... not me.

 

[Rex]

Here's your original post to me weeks after my last post in this thread. I'll go down the line point by point.

Rex ... I am not wanting to prolong the agony but have snipped the above from your opening post.

Originally the Gentiles were not the recipients of the promise .... they were un-godly pagans for the most part ...... but after hearing the Gospel they became believers as we all know
Gal 3:8 they were included in the promise, The promise was first delivered to the Jews and then unto the Gentiles read act ch 8-10
Ge 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; Ac 3:25

We also know many in Israel were not believers.
True
We know God broke off the branch of the olive tree (Israel) containing the unbelieving Israelites

In its place we know God grafted a branch into the olive tree (Israel) for us Gentiles to partake of the promise along with the Jews ..... (we did not become the Jews .... or Israel)
The promise was never unto the flesh descendents of Abraham in the first place
Gal 3:16
Romans 9:6-9
Romans verse 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.


I think we could all agree on most of the above ...... but here is where we all get upset and mixed up ...

God said he will re-attach the "broken off branch" some day in the future (if the Jews do not continue in un-beleif.)

It appears it will be retroactive to include all the Jewish unbelievers since the time of Christ

A Jew can become a believer today and he does not need the broken branch grafted back in to be saved ..... so the re-attached branch must be for the historical unbeleiving jews up until that time
Really........seriously......... I have not a clue about where you got that Idea

I expect that some day most (if not all) of Israel will believe in Messiah .... and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"
So you believe that God has blinded Israel for the last 2000 years "unbelieving Jews" the words you used and at some future point being dead both in body and in unbelief they will be grafted back in.

Sounds rather convoluted .... I know ..... but we are clearly told as much in Romans 11:16
Your right its completely ridicules not to mention completely nu-biblical I'm not going to address the issue of dead unbelieving Jews being saved in the future, I would think any knowledgeable bible student can figure out that's just plain BS. but I have addressed the issue of God punishing the children for the fathers sins. I'll re-post my comment again below, because it is relevant, God does not punish people for the sins of their fathers. That is what Ezek and Jer warned Judea and Israel about just before their captivity and your repeating it. Blindness on Israel of the flesh for 2000 years is teaching a generatonal curse "sour grapes"

If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

A careful reading of Romans lays it out systematically and better than I do

it should not be difficult for us to understand

If we want to.

The above is nearly the same thing I first responded to you.
Do you simply enjoy watching me repeat myself, or do you hope that people woun't go back and read what has been said? So after the thread page is turned you start making baseless accusations "lies" that I have not provided a case. That case is WHO is Israel please don't forget.

Never once will you go line by line thru Romans and make your case .... because you know if you do your case falls apart .

It is you that avoids scripture Rex .... not me.

If you would or could read the first post which was never intended to be a thread starter thanks to Angelina, you can see my point is WHO is Israel of the promise, I have show above in red some of Pauls the examples of who Israel is, which is not the blood descendents of Abraham .........Get it.

And here again is why you and other dispensationist are in error by claiming Israel "of the flesh" is under a generational curse.
It completely contrary to God!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I see something else, I don't believe that the sour grape proverb was ever inspired by God. Notice His opening statement through Ezek

Ezekiel 18
New King James Version (NKJV)

A False Proverb Refuted
18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Ezek 18:1-2
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 2 “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel,

Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Now I would like all of you people that have heard your paster tell you that Romans 11:25 means that God has blinded the nation of Israel to consider what I'm about to say.
Are they using the meaning of the parable of sour grapes?
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’
Are they teaching that God has cursed Israel for many generations spanning 2000 years now?

I ask you this, is this a generational blindness that your pasters are teaching you? That a blindness has been exacted on Israel for 2000 years now and how many generations would that be. Can you not clearly see the pasters teaching such things are simply repeating the errors of Israels past? Ezek 18:1-32 & Jer 31:28-34 Clearly God is not at all pleased with this proverb, and the modern teachers that teach a many generational cure on Israel "blindness" is contrary to scripture. Ezek and Jer were the prophets sent to the Israel and Judah before and during their captivity.

Ezek 18:2-3 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Just be careful who you listen to, and believe only what the Lord has placed upon your heart, search the scriptures to see what you have heard is true.
That proverb is being used every day through out most of the churches in the US.

The really sad thing about it is, most people believe it

 

[veteran]

i am not arguing for or against this op but anyone who says they definitely know bible prophesy without a doubt are people we should probably avoid listening too. the Word tells us that pride comes before a fall. it is better to listen to a humble person then to listen to someone who refuses to listen but is always chattering.

God bless

There you go trying to put your own words in other people's mouths again.

Where did I say I know everything there is to know about all Bible prophecies? You won't find that I've said that crazy idea anywhere in my posts. You simply chose to 'read into' it what you wanted.

Rex is wrong with trying to use the Ezek.18 proverb of sour grapes. That's not what Apostle Paul referred to in Romans 11 regarding blindness upon a part of Israel (mostly the Jews).

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(KJV)


Apostle Paul referred back to the Isaiah 29 Scripture about God putting that "spirit of slumber" upon the blinded part of Israel.

The Isaiah 28 Scripture ideas of The Word being made a stumbling upon them lead into that Isaiah 29 "spirit of slumber" subject. The KEY words Paul's using are "blinded", "stumbled" and "fall" in relation to not having eyes to see, and ears to hear (spiritually).

That stumbling at The Word is upon EACH new generation of the part of Israel which God blinded, unless they repent and believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour. That's how EACH new generation of them become responsible for their own stumbling at The Word.


This is also what Apostle Paul was talking about here:

2 Cor 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(KJV)


That vail is removed only... if they turn to Christ Jesus and believe on Him as The Christ.

Have the majority of JEWS today believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah?? No.

Back in Isaiah 28, God showed how His Word to them was line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, so they would stumble and fall backwards. To this day, the majority of them skip over many lines and precepts in The Old Testament about our Lord Jesus in order to keep their own traditions instead.

 

[Rex]

veteran
Tell it to Arnie and those that believe Israel has been intentionally blinded. The only reason I used the sour grapes scripture is to indicate that God doesn't cause generational curses. I'm very aware of the veil of unbelief, that's a different blindness than whats taught by dispensationlist. Do you now understand why I'm mentioning the false proverb of the sour grapes? Because its being used in the church today to explain Israels unbelief. The point in 11:25 is the definition Paul gives about who Israel is. Its not the blood decedents that are the recipients of the promise "Israel" but those that believe, they are Israel. Paul is saying that all Israel includes the Gentiles not the blood line of Abraham. Gal 3:8

Arnie even takes it a step further, believing that all the Jews that have died in unbelief for the last 2000 years will receive salvation, on top of being intentionally blinded "kept in unbelief" by God for 2000 years , because he/they believe that God has intentionally blinded them it's an easy step to presume that they will be saved as well.

It appears it will be retroactive to include all the Jewish unbelievers since the time of Christ

A Jew can become a believer today and he does not need the broken branch grafted back in to be saved ..... so the re-attached branch must be for the historical unbeleiving jews up until that time
Really........seriously......... I have not a clue about where you got that Idea

I expect that some day most (if not all) of Israel will believe in Messiah .... and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"

If you haven't understood my reason for talking about the proverb of the sour grapes I don't think you have done a very good job of reading the post leading upto your latest remark.

Rex is wrong with trying to use the Ezek.18 proverb of sour grapes. That's not what Apostle Paul referred to in Romans 11 regarding blindness upon a part of Israel (mostly the Jews).

Thats my whole point, the people that use it are in error. Those people being Arnie and dispensationlist.

Talk about blindness, I can't believe how hard it is for people to even follow a topic on the surface, let alone understand the meaning.

 

[daq]

Wow, "retroactive salvation" because of physical blood lines with a little Calvinism thrown into the mix because "it was God" who blinded them to begin with? Just goes to show that Dispensationalism really has more to do with "abolishing the law" than it does with truth, salvation, (which includes walking in Messiah with the Father) or anything else. Likewise it is no surprise to see the same one proclaim that he is not a Dispensationalist and then in the very next post proclaim that God was the first Dispensationalist. What is the use of even attempting to reason with one who simply throws every possible wrench into the machinery until the whole argument becomes broken down into squabbling? It is not about discussing the finer points of the Word for such a one but rather about throwing road blocks up and wrenches into the workings of whatever is said that he disagrees with.

 

[dragonfly]

Talk about blindness, I can't believe how hard it is for people to even follow a topic on the surface, let alone understand the meaning.

Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat,
and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered,
Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
and the houses without man,
and the land be utterly desolate,
12 And the Lord have removed men far away,
and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.


13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten:
as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves:
so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.


And so the holy seed finally came and when Jesus read from Isaiah 61, He added in something Isaiah had left out, namely:


Luke 4:18 '... and recovering of sight to the blind ...'

and He was most definitely speaking only to Israel, in that moment.



There is, Arnie, quite a bit of biblical evidence that 'the Gentiles' were far more aware of, and in touch with, God, than you acknowledge.

Genesis 6:8 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.



Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?




Here are two more places where 'Gentiles' speak the word of God.

2 Chronicles 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.


Jeremiah 40:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, after that Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had let him go from Ramah, when he had taken him being bound in chains among all that were carried away captive of Jerusalem and Judah, which were carried away captive unto Babylon. 2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The Lord thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place. 3 Now the Lord hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the Lord, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you. 4 And now, behold, I loose thee this day from the chains which were upon thine hand. If it seem good unto thee to come with me into Babylon, come; and I will look well unto thee: but if it seem ill unto thee to come with me into Babylon, forbear: behold, all the land is before thee: whither it seemeth good and convenient for thee to go, thither go. 5 Now while he was not yet gone back, he said, Go back also to Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, whom the king of Babylon hath made governor over the cities of Judah, and dwell with him among the people: or go wheresoever it seemeth convenient unto thee to go. So the captain of the guard gave him victuals and a reward, and let him go. 6 Then went Jeremiah unto Gedaliah the son of Ahikam to Mizpah; and dwelt with him among the people that were left in the land.

 

[veteran]

veteran
Tell it to Arnie and those that believe Israel has been intentionally blinded. The only reason I used the sour grapes scripture is to indicate that God doesn't cause generational curses. I'm very aware of the veil of unbelief, that's a different blindness than whats taught by dispensationlist. Do you now understand why I'm mentioning the false proverb of the sour grapes? Because its being used in the church today to explain Israels unbelief. The point in 11:25 is the definition Paul gives about who Israel is. Its not the blood decedents that are the recipients of the promise "Israel" but those that believe, they are Israel. Paul is saying that all Israel includes the Gentiles not the blood line of Abraham. Gal 3:8

If you deny... the Rom.11 Scripture where Paul showed God blinded Israel in part, then you MUST ALSO... deny the 2 Cor.3 Scripture where Paul confirmed that very blindness again!

When our Lord Jesus returns, then you can ask Him WHY He did that for this world.

But the point is, He DID... put that blindness upon a portion of the seed of Israel. Apostle Paul even told us there in Rom.11:11-26 why He did it, but you seem to be hard of hearing that Scripture too!


I won't leave you totally barren about HOW... He did that blindness though... for Paul's "vail" idea goes deeper...

In Isaiah 28, God is using the blinded of Israel's own words against them, and in the Hebrew it flows like a song (in bold red)...

Isa 28:13-14
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)

God made understanding in His Holy Writ "precept upon precept", "line upon line", "here a little, and there a little", so they would fall backward and stumble at it.

It is impossible to miss all the Old Testament Scripture about Christ's coming to die on the cross, for even David was given to prophesy of the very events of Christ's crucifixion approximately 1,000 years before it even happenned! (Ps.22).

One who covers God's Word to the people precept upon precept, line upon line, etc., would never miss that like the majority of the Jews have.

To cement that very idea, our Lord Jesus pointed to how they instead held to their own man-made traditions instead of God's Holy Writ. They only pull out of God's Word what they can use for their own desires and that's it. Their following of the Babylonian Talmudic traditions instead reveal that even to a greater... degree.

But this blindness is not now only... upon the Jews that still refuse Jesus Christ. Because of Amos 8:11-12 it is also upon any of God's people who go after man-made doctrines like the unbelieving JEWS do. One has to wonder if it's not unbelieving Jews that have taken over many Christian denominational organizations today, because many of them are doing the same thing today!!!

So if a believer really wants to have spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear today, then God's Word precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little is HOW... God gives that. This is why Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to study to show himself 'approved' of God, becoming a 'workman', 'rightly dividing' The Word of Truth. The only... way to do that rightly dividing is by line upon line, chapter by chapter Bible study.

 

[Rex]

If you deny... the Rom.11 Scripture where Paul showed God blinded Israel in part, then you MUST ALSO... deny the 2 Cor.3 Scripture where Paul confirmed that very blindness again!

When our Lord Jesus returns, then you can ask Him WHY He did that for this world.

But the point is, He DID... put that blindness upon a portion of the seed of Israel. Apostle Paul even told us there in Rom.11:11-26 why He did it, but you seem to be hard of hearing that Scripture too!


I won't leave you totally barren about HOW... He did that blindness though... for Paul's "vail" idea goes deeper...

In Isaiah 28, God is using the blinded of Israel's own words against them, and in the Hebrew it flows like a song (in bold red)...

Isa 28:13-14
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)

God made understanding in His Holy Writ "precept upon precept", "line upon line", "here a little, and there a little", so they would fall backward and stumble at it.

It is impossible to miss all the Old Testament Scripture about Christ's coming to die on the cross, for even David was given to prophesy of the very events of Christ's crucifixion approximately 1,000 years before it even happenned! (Ps.22).

One who covers God's Word to the people precept upon precept, line upon line, etc., would never miss that like the majority of the Jews have.

To cement that very idea, our Lord Jesus pointed to how they instead held to their own man-made traditions instead of God's Holy Writ. They only pull out of God's Word what they can use for their own desires and that's it. Their following of the Babylonian Talmudic traditions instead reveal that even to a greater... degree.

But this blindness is not now only... upon the Jews that still refuse Jesus Christ. Because of Amos 8:11-12 it is also upon any of God's people who go after man-made doctrines like the unbelieving JEWS do. One has to wonder if it's not unbelieving Jews that have taken over many Christian denominational organizations today, because many of them are doing the same thing today!!!

So if a believer really wants to have spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear today, then God's Word precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little is HOW... God gives that. This is why Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to study to show himself 'approved' of God, becoming a 'workman', 'rightly dividing' The Word of Truth. The only... way to do that rightly dividing is by line upon line, chapter by chapter Bible study.

No veteran I believe that two people have understood what I mean daq and dragonfly that is quite enough for me.
I've just been sitting here thinking about blindness and reading the Isaiah quote above, and considering the blindness of Israel taught today.

The thing that has come to mind is my signature, I don't really remember when or where I thought of it but it's true.
It's not my job to open peoples eyes, it's my job to provide the opportunity.

Have a good summer evening vet, I wish the clouds here would drop some rain on the mountain so I could go back to work.
Blindness is simply unbelief

Its not some curse that's applied to a nation of people for 2000 years, ............or to the end of the church age. now that's a popular expression

John 11:40

 

[veteran]

No veteran I believe that two people have understood what I mean daq and dragonfly that is quite enough for me.
I've just been sitting here thinking about blindness and reading the Isaiah quote above, and considering the blindness of Israel taught today.

The thing that has come to mind is my signature, I don't really remember when or where I thought of it but it's true.
It's not my job to open peoples eyes, it's my job to provide the opportunity.

Have a good summer evening vet, I wish the clouds here would drop some rain on the mountain so I could go back to work.

Blindness is simply unbelief

Well, I wish that blindness was simply because of unbelief only, but I know better. The matter still goes even deeper, involving the crept in unawares, i.e., the "tares" Jesus mentioned in Matt.13. The Jews early on contained many from the Canaanite peoples early in their history, even with the Kenites of the lands of Canaan becoming scribes in Israel in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ. This matter is also tied to that "mystery of iniquity" that began back in Genesis. One who doesn't know about it per God's Word can be subject to that blindness also, as it also applies to the deceived in Christ's Church too, since many of the seed of Israel make up Christ's Church today.

I wish we could share some of our rain with some other places, we're getting too much here in the South right now.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Chayaal Meshuwchrar.

Well, I wish that blindness was simply because of unbelief only, but I know better. The matter still goes even deeper, involving the crept in unawares, i.e., the "tares" Jesus mentioned in Matt.13. The Jews early on contained many from the Canaanite peoples early in their history, even with the Kenites of the lands of Canaan becoming scribes in Israel in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ. This matter is also tied to that "mystery of iniquity" that began back in Genesis. One who doesn't know about it per God's Word can be subject to that blindness also, as it also applies to the deceived in Christ's Church too, since many of the seed of Israel make up Christ's Church today.

I wish we could share some of our rain with some other places, we're getting too much here in the South right now.

Sorry, but that is a misapplication of the "tares" that Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 13. This is a parable ABOUT THE KINGDOM, not the current age!


Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
.....

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world (Greek: kosmos = "world-system"); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = "age"); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age").
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This "furnace of fire" is the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:8-15. The "Kingdom of their Father" is God's Kingdom described in the New Earth and the New Sky of Revelation 21 and 22. The Messiah's "Kingdom," "his kingdom," is the Millennium of Revelation 20:1-7. One absolutely MUST harmonize Revelation 20-22 with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, remembering that Paul's purpose in 1 Corinthians 15 is to talk about resurrection:


1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

The Millennium of Rev. 20:1-6 is when the Messiah "must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet," and He will reign until "he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." At the end of the Millennium, He puts down the LAST enemy, death, in Rev. 20:7-15, specifically verse 14. Then, the Son Himself shall also be subject unto HIM (God the Father) who put all things under Him, so that GOD THE FATHER may be all in all! When God the Father is all in all, the Kingdom becomes "the Kingdom of their Father" in Matthew 13:43.

 

[veteran]

Christ's parable of the tares of the field is about the devil's servants here in this world as the "tares". In horticulture, a tare is like a weed that looks just like wheat. While it grows it looks just... like real wheat and you cannot distinguish it from real wheat. Only when it comes to maturity during harvest time does the tare exhibit a black bud on the end of it, showing that it is not real wheat. That's why at harvest the tares are separated from the real wheat, and the tares thrown into the fire.


Christ Jesus' EXPLANATION of the parable of the 'tares'. There is NO OTHER explanation. His disciples asked Him to EXPLAIN it, and He did; here it is:

Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

Multitude gone away at this point. Jesus and His disciples in private here now. They ask Him to declare the parable of the tares to them. He does...

37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The "good seed" represents God's people. Jesus is represented by that "Son of man".

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The "field" represents the world, the good seed those of Christ's Kingdom.

But the "tares"... represent the children of darkness, Satan's elect here on earth.

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The enemy who sowed... the evil tares is the devil himself. They belong to him.

The harvest time is the END of this world, and the reapers are Christ's angels.


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Just as tares in real horticulture are separated from good wheat and the tares thrown into fire, likewise it will be at the end of this world for the servants of Satan. They will go into the "lake of fire" with him, per the end of Rev.20.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)

At Christ's coming, He will send His angels and gather first the tares out of His Kingdom, just like He said is done to real tares in horticulture.


Thus - the "tares" = the children of darkness sowed in among God's people (the good wheat).


Judg 2:18-23
18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)



Who were the Kenites???


Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
(KJV)


The Kenites were foreigners that lived among the nations of Canaan. King Saul of Israel spared them...


1 Sam 15:5-6
5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.
(KJV)


1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)

By the time Chronicles was written, there they were, in the lands of Judah at Jabez, a location near Bethlehem. And they had worked their way up into the status as SCRIBES IN CARE OF GOD'S HOLY WRIT.

Our Heavenly Father caused that because of Israel's rebellions against Him, and to use those "tares" to prove Israel by. That is still... in effect for today, and is part of what Apostle Paul's "mystery of iniquity" is about. It is... God's Word, as written, regardless who wants to deny it. And I reckon those of Judah (JEWS) would want to deny it the most!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

veteran
Tell it to Arnie and those that believe Israel has been intentionally blinded.

Rex .... there you go again .... you know very well God blinded the minds of some of Israel ... you simply refuse to believe those verses in Romans 11 .

Your argument should be with the bible .... and not with me.

I am puzzled why you avoid the verses that are contrary to your opinion .

Is it possible that you suffer from some of the afflictions of blindness as well. ? . (I am not trying to be rude to you sir) .... but I fail to see how that " blindness" can be any advantage to you or anyone.

........................

One last time I will let the bible spell it out for you.
And rather than have you attack the NIV I will use the authorized KJV

.....................

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved:

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: when I shall take away their sins for this is my covenant unto them,


...........................

Obviously there are 2 things which must first occur before ... "All Israel is saved"

1. ...... the full number of Gentiles must have come in

2. ..... a Deliverer must come out of Sion

 

[dragonfly]

2. ..... a Deliverer must come out of Sion

Luke 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


The Deliver did come out of Sion.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How did He get there?


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


He came out of Jerusalem to be crucified, was buried nearby, and after His resurrection stood on the Mount of Olives many times, the Victor over every corrupting influence to human nature. His name is like ointment poured forth; therefore do the virgins love Him. (Song of songs 1:3)


Jeremiah 31:7 For thus saith the Lord;
Sing with gladness for Jacob,
and shout among the chief of the nations:
publish ye, praise ye, and say,
O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.


13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
both young men and old together:
Lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai lai ~
for I will turn their mourning into joy,
and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

dragon .... I do not feel it is necessary to decipher the mechanics of the Deliverer who will come out of Zion .... I expect we all know who it is already.

The point is that the deliverer will come some day (again) ... and one of His functions is to repair the blindness and unbelief of Israel .... he will remove their blindness .... and fulfill His covenant with them .

And I would like you to know I am fully aware of Hebrews 11 .... and for 32 seconds I was taken as a visitor to see , hear , and feel the surroundings of the heavenly Zion. ..... It is better than we could imagine .... one day the information will be released publicly . Thank you.

In summary .... we all know The deliverer has already come out of Zion ..... and we know He will come again .... He still has unfinished business to take care of .... including some favorable things for Israel.

Whether we western gentile christians like it or not.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 11:25-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]26[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]27[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 4:2-4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]4[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Zechariah 13:7-9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]7[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](((The Lord will save all Israel that survives his judgment of the unbelieving Jews by war and fire.)))[/SIZE]