Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?Prentis said:We submit to true prophets, who receive their words from God, yes
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Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?Prentis said:We submit to true prophets, who receive their words from God, yes
Good point. There are no more prophets. The law and the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.musterion said:Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Did he speak in agreement with the Word, live in agreement with the Spirit, and bring the life the word speaks of?musterion said:Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Would this not be contradictory with Paul's letters?This Vale Of Tears said:Good point. There are no more prophets. The law and the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
I am led to believe that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.FHII said:Hey, Marked Man.... Bye, bye.....
So the prophecies I received from four different people at four different times at four different locations that all said the same are not from God?This Vale Of Tears said:Good point. There are no more prophets. The law and the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
I said there are no more prophets. That's different than saying there is no more prophesy. I don't believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.marksman said:I am led to believe that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
So the prophecies I received from four different people at four different times at four different locations that all said the same are not from God?
If their are no more prophets, then it is logical that there are no more apostles, evangelists, pastors or teachers and that means the body of christ has come to unity in the faith which is strange seeing as we have 35,000 denominations.This Vale Of Tears said:I said there are no more prophets. That's different than saying there is no more prophesy. I don't believe the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.
Wow. I can do that too! There are "millions" who believe the gifts of the Spirit have NOT ceased, so are they wrong or are you? Did you seriously build your argument on that pile of sand?marksman said:If their are no more prophets, then it is logical that there are no more apostles, evangelists, pastors or teachers and that means the body of christ has come to unity in the faith which is strange seeing as we have 35,000 denominations.
FYI, there are millions who follow secessionist teaching who believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased so are they wrong or are you?
So Agabus wasn't a prophet?This Vale Of Tears said:Moreover, there are no more prophets in the sense that prophets represented God to the people and so God sent prophets. But then God sent his only son, which is why Hebrews opens this way: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things."
In that case why does your catholic church insist on their priests being addressed as father?This Vale Of Tears said:And put in this context, it's easier to understand what Jesus meant when he said, "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."
If that is the case why is the pope called the vicar of Christ and is his representative on earth?This Vale Of Tears said:So having leaders in the Church, priests, bishops, deacons, and even the Pope does not supplant Christ as the only one that reconciles sinners to a holy God. Priests and pastors don't take the role that prophets did in the Old Testament. They don't represent God to the people for we have direct access to "come boldly to the throne of grace" through a rent veil. This is what the cross accomplished for us.
If that is the case, why did God say in his Word a long time after he died and was resurrected and ascended that Jesus gave.....prophets. Ephesians 4:11.This Vale Of Tears said:So there are no more prophets. We have Jesus.
I guess that is one way of answering a question by ignoring it and replacing it with your own question which is invalid until you have answered mine.This Vale Of Tears said:Wow. I can do that too! There are "millions" who believe the gifts of the Spirit have NOT ceased, so are they wrong or are you? Did you seriously build your argument on that pile of sand?
STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER TO ALL MY QUESTIONS.marksman said:So Agabus wasn't a prophet?
In that case why does your catholic church insist on their priests being addressed as father?
If that is the case why is the pope called the vicar of Christ and is his representative on earth?
And why do catholics have to go through the priest to receive forgiveness of sin?
A case of don't do what I do, do what I say by the looks of things.
And I never said that priests and pastors take the role of prophets.
If that is the case, why did God say in his Word a long time after he died and was resurrected and ascended that Jesus gave.....prophets. Ephesians 4:11.
It seems a bit strange that he would give a ministry to the church after he had done away with them, don't you think?
And if there are no more prophets becuase we have Jesus, then it stands to reason that we don't need priests, pastors, teachers, evangelists apostles because we have Jesus. If he can fulfil the role of prophet, I am sure he is quite capable of fulfilling the role of the others as well.
I guess that is one way of answering a question by ignoring it and replacing it with your own question which is invalid until you have answered mine.
As you have failed to address the questions VOT, I assume that you cannot answer my questions.marksman said:STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER TO ALL MY QUESTIONS.
Well saidCafeHope said:Pastors today are being influenced by the world's definition of success: maximum occupancy, name-dropping and superficial stuff a prayerful, holy spirit filled christian would not pursue as the be-all, end-all. Until pastors return to the crux of christianity which is faith, hope and love, many of them will continue to falter and quit their so-called calling.
God hasn't called us to be like the world. He has called us live exemplary lives that the world can emulate and so boasting in riches or head count, my friends, is not amenable to successful christian living (or church pastoring).
I met a man about 6 years ago who “used to be” a Lutheran pastor and guess what? He got saved in the middle and he said the congregation could tell that something was different and they had a meeting to vote him out but he resigned.My own feeling is and it has been confirmed by other writers that probably at least 50% of the pastors out there should never be in ministry.
Exactly brother! And since America leads or has lead in the sending of missionaries out to other countries, it only stands to reason that other countries have learned this “one man” model to lead a church. I’m sure there are some churches out there doing it right but the majority, you have to wonder.What this tells me is that when you ignore the obvious and impose a man made system on a spiritually devised and God given structure, you are asking for trouble because you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
I know some will say you can't live in the past, you have to get involved in the now.DoUPray2 said:These are just my experiences and I was raised (spiritually) in a church that was actually run by the Spirit and not man (which ran a lot of people off!) and they were not "pentecostal" in doctrine or denomination but they definitely believed in all 9 gifts in operation in the church today. And I miss that church.
I don't disagree with your sentiments but I sometimes wonder if they have no choice.CafeHope said:Pastors today are being influenced by the world's definition of success: maximum occupancy, name-dropping and superficial stuff a prayerful, holy spirit filled christian would not pursue as the be-all, end-all. Until pastors return to the crux of christianity which is faith, hope and love, many of them will continue to falter and quit their so-called calling.
God hasn't called us to be like the world. He has called us live exemplary lives that the world can emulate and so boasting in riches or head count, my friends, is not amenable to successful christian living (or church pastoring).
I have recently seen this in a church I visited. I had been to this church before and have seen it very successful and full of the spirit. Now, it has very little faith and the congregation is more or less keeping up appearances. Now, that being said, I happen to know the pastor and had in depth talks with him. He is still full of the Holy Spirit and has a good message. But his church has also had "update" its forum to keep up with the times.... Adding a band on stage and try to be a bit more "hip" to draw the younger crowds. This being said, my general observation isn't that the pastor has failed, it's that the an unreasonable expectation has been set by the Christian community who need to be dazzled by sites and sounds to worship and even "feel" the spirit. I use the word "feel" in the sense that they need the audio and visual stimulation of their senses in order to be captivated. I think this could also lead to a false sense of "enlightenment".7angels said:first let me say you will almost never see a full time evangelist in a church body with the exception of an evangelist visiting or being a special speaker.
an apostle will be in the church to get it started but after that you will rarely see him.
teachers and prophets are usually in the church at all times.
now i was taught that we are not supposed to call ourselves apostles, prophets, teachers or evangelists. our fruit will be seen by others and they will be the ones to say who they think we are. as long as we follow our calling from God and listen to his voice then we cannot go wrong. when we get stuck upon titles then we start to lose sight of God's vision for us.
now i also believe we should call pastors by the pastor title because it is a sign of respect. to skip the pastor title and just call them by their christian name is disrespectful. when you go to a business meeting with your seniors then it is not right to call your boss joe without permission. the same is true for recognizing a pastor.
btw i understand why you all think that few pastors or anyone else seems to be called to the ministry. but you are wrong about reasoning. as the Word teaches many are called but few are chosen. this saying has a lot of meaning to it that i won't get into here atm but don't assume just because a person quits or get fired from ministry that they were not called. instead we need to ask ourself why did they not become successful? being burnt out in ministry is a common occurrence but ask yourself why are they burnt out?
God bless
Reminds me of the saying that only a fool does the same thing all the time and expects a different outcome.lforrest said:The leadership of the church is the primary source of problems that I've seen. Christians expect too much from their pastor. There is supposed to be a whole leadership structure with the elders in charge. Of the few churches that still have elders fewer still are equipped with wisdom beyond that of the other congregants. James 3:13.
Who will accept someone to be an authority over them in this society? We live in a society that delights itself in its own pride, a society where humility is shameful.
Look at the Lord's final solution in revelation, he will rule with an iron scepter. His authority in his reign will be absolute. Why then do we allow the Spirit of God to be stifled today, and yet we pray his Kingdom come?