The Rapture is going to take us Home

[veteran]

the seed parable can be used to show us those that are mature if it is in certain areas. in order to be able to have the 30, 60, and 100 fold returns we need to be mature in that area.

In Christ's parable of the sower (Matt.13), there is absolutely NO... idea of "those that are mature if it is in certain areas." You've totally made that idea up (or got it from some deceived preacher).

Per the parable, there's only ONE group where the seed (God's Word) bears fruit. It's the group representing the seed falling in "good ground".

Because of that, only that group is able to bear fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold. The AMOUNT of fruit their seed bears has nothing to do with some crazy idea that we need to be mature with believing on some Pre-trib secret rapture theory of man.

...a person can be immature in some areas and be mature in other areas. paul talks a lot about becoming mature in Christ. paul refers to it as becoming perfect but if you look up the meaning you will see that it refers to being mature. so yes the seed parable can be used in that way without changing the context of the meaning that is inferred in the parable of the seed.

So, what you've really done, is to take a subject that Apostle Paul taught, and then cross-applied it how you wanted to our Lord's parable of the sower. It's improper to do that with the parable of the sower. One could ONLY... do that because of not actually 'understanding' the sower parable in the first place.

So, here it is, for those interested:


The Parable:

Matt 13:3-9
3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, "Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(KJV)


The Meaning:

Matt 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

1st Group of Hearers:
Thus the "seed" sown represents understanding in The Word of God. The "way side" idea is about a hard compacted earthen path, where people have walked upon and packed the ground down tight. When seed is sown on it, the seed just lays there bare, never getting into the ground. So the fowls then come and eat it up. That is used as symbolic for those who 'hear' God's Word, but don't understand It, and thus Satan is able to take God's Word right out of their mind and heart. God's Word takes no... root with those. They are as good as blinded. Lack of fruit.

Main Message? Got to do some ploughing in God's Word to break the soil, so His Word will take root in you, otherwise the enemy will take it away from you, eating up what's been only thrown on top of a hard path. This is where many are, following the traditions of men, Church creeds, worldly ways applied to The Church, which all serve as a hard compacted path that never allows the seed to take root. Men's traditions want to keep you 'bottle fed', so you'll be dependent upon them, and not as much on our Lord Jesus Christ. The way out of that is to get ploughing for oneself in God's Word, asking His help 'directly', and disciplining yourself in It like how He showed (Isaiah 28, line upon line...).


2nd Group of Hearers:
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Seed sown in ground that has a lot of stones keeps many of the seeds from coming up, and the ones that do have small roots, the stones preventing the roots from spreading and going deep as needed. These also 'hear' The Word of God, and receive it with joy, but because their roots inside themselves is weak, they only endure for a while, and when tribulation comes because of it, The Word becomes 'a stone of stumbling' and 'a rock of offense' to them (1 Pet.2:8). Thus they begin to fall away back to leisure or escapism. The ridicule of the world, family, friends, and loved ones for staying in The Word becomes too overwhelming, so they fall away back to the world. Lack of fruit.

Main Message? Got to also clear the stones out of your soil if you want The Word of God to take deep root and remain with you. Then by It taking strong root, what the world, family, friends, and loved ones think, will never be able to sway you from God's Truth. This is how Christ Jesus becomes a Beacon in you, and others around you begin to notice His strength working in you. You then actually start to become useful in really doing God's Work.


3rd Group of Hearers:
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Seed sown among thorn bushes will be choked out, the thorns taking over the soil. The fowls, the stones, and the thorns, are all Old Testament symbols for Satan and his workers in control of this world. Dreams of being a major success, being rich, the world looking up to you and appreciating your status of riches is the ultimate 'thorn', the love of money which is the root of all evil (1 Tim.6:10). Result: lack of fruit.

Main Message? Got to also clear away the thorns out of your soil so The Word can take deep root, leaving many of the cares and strivings of this present world that get in the way of doing God's Work. God already knows what we need to do His Work, and He will provide that as needed, IF... we are doing His Work (not ours), and doing it His Way.


4th Group of Hearers:
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
(KJV)

No hard compacted path, no stones, no thorns, but "good ground", well ploughed ground with the soil loosened up so as to receive The Word of God and It will take strong root and flourish. Christ's servants who do this, some produce a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold, ALL DEPENDING ON ONE'S CALLING FROM GOD. Just as with the labourers in the field, the ones that came last and worked only one hour got the SAME... pay as those who had worked all day.

Main Message? Get to ploughing in God's Word so as to 'learn' how to recognize Satan and his workers of iniquity which serve as the fowls, stones, and thorns in order to remove God's Truth away from you. God is not going to do that for you until... you learn His Word about them, and how He expects us to clear them out of the way in order to do His Work. The majority of Churches today have fallen away from learning to do this, and thus are allowing Satan and his workers to take over their congregations, becoming fowls, stones, and thorns, right in the congregation. Result of doing it? Ability to produce MUCH fruit in The Lord.

...that parable of the 10 virgins is about those that are filled with the Holy Spirit and those that are not. it has nothing to do with the rapture. btw the 5 virgins never fell away from Jesus. this parable refers those that have the Holy Spirit and follow him and those that do not.

Per the parable, all ten virgins had lamps with Oil in them. But only the five wise virgins carried a spare vessel of Oil with them, in case their lamps ran out. The Message? The word "wise" should have been a big clue, referring to ''wisdom'. And where does that come from, just by having an anointing by The Holy Spirit only? No. Wisdom from God comes from that anointing AND by staying in His Word to get... 'understanding'. The spare vessel of Oil represents 'understanding'... in God's Word by The Holy Spirit so as to not be among those who fall away and become snared, and taken, i.e., deceived.

In 2 Corinthians 11, Apostle Paul declares part of the meaning of this parable, when he said he wished to present us to Christ Jesus as "a chaste virgin", not deceived by the serpent as Eve was. The OT prophets wrote much about the idea of spiritual harlotry using the idea of virgins in the spiritual symbolic sense, as Paul was pulling from Isaiah 54 about that, and our Lord Jesus also quoted that from Isaiah in the Luke 23 chapter ("Blessed are the barren..."). Thus, the idea of five wise virgins represents those who remain waiting on Christ Jesus, and the five foolish virgins represent spiritual harlots that do not wait on Christ Jesus, but fall away to another, deceived by the serpent as Eve was.


Matt 25:10-12
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV)

 

[lawrance]

I agree with veteran.
I see the pre-trib rapture as just a worldly con that is used to bring about fear mongering and from what i have seen in people, it helps in the position to guide people who are weak in faith that they somehow will be out of hear before we endure the great painful event. and people unfortunately like to hear that but with true or great faith one can endure and will walk through the flames so to speak. because they are Gods true people and will not run away, as we do not fear the works of tempters but will walk in Christ only.

 

[mark s]

Of course, every true student of the Word knows, there will be tribulations here and now, we're not just waiting for some future time to suffer. Our faith is made strong by God to endure all of our testing. Pre-trib rapture doctrine is not an "escape from tribulations".

Testimony comes from around the world as our brothers and sisters are being tortured and killed daily for the faith.

God's true people stand. Check out I Peter ch. 1. It's the proof of our faith. That's in tribulations past, present, and future.

You know who its being proved to? I'll give a hint . . . God already knows.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[JLB]

Revelation 7:9-14

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Revelation 6:9-11

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is clearly an event that takes place after the great tribulation.

 

[Saint]

Shalom, brother Saint, once known as Sinner-Saint, right?



Y'know, bro, these 144,000 are Isra'elis. They are even listed by tribe! The 144,000 are those who have learned about the Messiah Yeshua` and are His heralds for the time before His arrival. The people who identify themselves as "Jehovah's Witnesses" are wrong about who these people are. Yahuwh ("Jehovah" or "Yahweh") would not have them call themselves the "144,000" unless they were actually descendants from those sons of Isra'el. Now, veteran may be right about the "10 lost tribes" and some who would otherwise call themselves "Goyim" or "Gentiles" (non-Isra'elis) may actually be descendants without realizing it, but CREDENTIALS should be found that prove their lineage. And, while it may be true that being sealed by the messenger may be "credentials" enough, how is one supposed to know that they have indeed been so sealed? What proof will there be of that sealing? The bottom line is this: I don't think that there's any evidence that those who are sealed will be anyone other than who Yochanan said they were: virgins of Isra'el who have not defiled themselves with women.

Also, being "redeemed from the earth" does not imply being taken from the earth to "Heaven." The words in Greek are, "hoi eegorasmenoi apo tees gees," and literally translate to "the purchased-ones away-from the ground." This doesn't lend itself to a "rapture" as much as it does to a "RESURRECTION!" Their bodies have been purchased (back) from the ground! They are standing with the Lamb Yeshua` upon haHar Tsiown (Greek: epi to oros Sioon), upon the Mount Zion! That's in YERUSHALAYIM or JERUSALEM!

As far as these being called "firstfruits," you're right. There's no "as" in the Greek text as was translated in the English version you used. They were called, "aparchee too Theoo kai too Arnioo" - "firstfruits for the God and the Lamb" - a wave-offering for God and the Lamb!

Roy I have to believe that the 144000 is a symbolic number and is not limited to an exact number of 144000. Seems to me if we are to take this number literally then we must take some other things literally:

First, there is the “Lamb,” a figure representing Christ (cf. Jn. 1:29; Rev. 5:6).

Second, there is Mount Zion, a symbol of divine government (cf. Isa. 2:2-4).

Third, there is the numeral 144,000, suggestive of the heavenly complement of God’s people — no one will be missing who is supposed to be there.

Fourth, the saints are depicted as “virgins,” which descriptive emphasizes their purity (cf. 2 Cor. 11:2). Regarding the term virgins, this to me would mean those who have not committed adultery with other gods or worship.

So I’m saying that the number could be far more than 144000.

Next I would like to call your attention to the great multitude that appear standing before the throne in Rev 7:9 and the fact that they appear at the beginning of the great tribulation (last 3 ½ years). Let me make one thing perfectly clear, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God which are the bowl judgments which occur during the ten days of awe between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

I think this great multitude is the symbolic 144,000 which include both spiritually mature Messianic Israelites and mature non-Israelites who are grafted into the tree.

As the 144,000 of Israel are “the first-fruits” (Rev_14:4), so “the harvest” (Rev_14:15) is the general assembly of Gentile saints to be translated by Christ as His first act in assuming His kingdom, prior to His judgment (Rev_16:17-21, the last seven vials) on the Antichristian world, in executing which His saints shall share.

It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
(Rev 14:4 ESV)

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe."
(Rev 14:14-15 ESV)

Now I understand that this thinking is outside the normal eschatology view within the church but I think scripture is supporting this if view properly. So what I am offering is a analysis that excludes a pre-tribulation rapture but does offer a translation of firstfruit at the beginning of the great tribulation; but the main harvest of saints occurs at the return of Yeshua prior to the wrath of YHWH, likely ten days prior to the end.

I have to think the assigned task of this group of wittiness’s is to return to earth to wittiness to those who will endure the great tribulation as well to those who will accept Yeshua during that time.

By the way I am not Sinner Saint (bless his heart) but you and I have shared many discussions during that time.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bob.

I think you would do better to take those things you count as figurative or symbolic a little more literally. You see, Yeshua` haMashiach IS haKeves Elohiym, the Lamb of God! It may SEEM like a metaphor until you realize that HE is the Lamb that was provided by God as a sacrifice for sins!

Who says that "Mount Zion" or "haHar Tsiown" is not the LITERAL mountain in Jerusalem? I believe that it IS just that! Surely, Yochanan would have known a mountain he frequently visited!

As far as the 144,000 go, isn't it interesting that it is broken down to 12 12,000-sealed tribes? 12 x 12,000 = 144,000. Why shouldn't this be literal?

The word translated "virgins" is "parthenoi," the plural of "parthenos," the same word used in Matthew 1:23 and Luke 1:27 for Miryam (Mary), Yeshua`s mother. Why shouldn't this word be interpreted literally? If you don't interpret it literally, how literal should you understand Miryam being a "virgin?"

Yes, I believe that a much greater number than 144,000 is found in the "the great multitude that appear standing before the throne in Rev 7:9"; however, that number is IN ADDITION TO the 144,000, not "represented by" the 144,000.

I've come to realize that the "tribulation" is NOT the same time period as the "70th Seven" of Dani'el, neither the "seven" nor half of the "seven." It is a much longer time period than that! It began in the first century after Yeshua` left the Jews "desolate" and will continue until Yeshua` is accepted as God's choice for Isra'el's Melekh (King).

 

[lawrance]

Of course, every true student of the Word knows, there will be tribulations here and now, we're not just waiting for some future time to suffer. Our faith is made strong by God to endure all of our testing. Pre-trib rapture doctrine is not an "escape from tribulations".

Testimony comes from around the world as our brothers and sisters are being tortured and killed daily for the faith.

God's true people stand. Check out I Peter ch. 1. It's the proof of our faith. That's in tribulations past, present, and future.

You know who its being proved to? I'll give a hint . . . God already knows.

Love in Christ,
Mark

My mate is on about this is the big one coming and he wants to be out of hear even to the point of being angry with Christ ? because old mate wants it to happen, no demands it to. :unsure:
I say listen mate it has noting to do with you. as in who do you think you are.
Now he is drinking and doing drugs again because the big day did not come when predicted. and caring on about he can kill anyone as he is pushing the old line of OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Retrobyter wrote -

I've come to realize that the "tribulation" is NOT the same time period as the "70th Seven" of Dani'el, neither the "seven" nor half of the "seven." It is a much longer time period than that! It began in the first century after Yeshua` left the Jews "desolate" and will continue until Yeshua` is accepted as God's choice for Isra'el's Melekh (King).

The Words of Jesus - Matthew 24:15-

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 9:26-27

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

I think I will believe Jesus.

 

[Saint]

The very description of the way to life tells us of tribulation in our walk!

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
(Mat 7:14 ESV)

Because[sup]G3754[/sup] strait[sup]G4728[/sup] is the[sup]G3588[/sup] gate,[sup]G4439[/sup] and[sup]G2532[/sup] narrow[sup]G2346[/sup] is the[sup]G3588[/sup] way,[sup]G3598[/sup] which[sup]G3588[/sup] leadeth[sup]G520[/sup] unto[sup]G1519[/sup] life,[sup]G2222[/sup] and[sup]G2532[/sup] few[sup]G3641[/sup] there be[sup]G1526[/sup] that find[sup]G2147[/sup] it.[sup]G846[/sup]
(Mat 7:14 KJV+)

Cognate: 2346 thlíbō (the root of 2347 /thlípsis, reflecting an original "b"/bēta) – properly, rub together, constrict (compress), i.e. pressed together; (figuratively) oppressively afflict (distress), i.e. like when circumstances "rub us the wrong way" that make us feel confined (hemmed in); restricted to a "narrow" place. See 2347 (thlipsis).

Word Origin
a prim. verb
Definition
to press, afflict
NASB Word Usage
afflict (1), afflicted (5), crowd (2), distress (1), narrow (1), suffer affliction (1).

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -

I've come to realize that the "tribulation" is NOT the same time period as the "70th Seven" of Dani'el, neither the "seven" nor half of the "seven." It is a much longer time period than that! It began in the first century after Yeshua` left the Jews "desolate" and will continue until Yeshua` is accepted as God's choice for Isra'el's Melekh (King).

The Words of Jesus - Matthew 24:15-

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 (You) Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And (you) let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And (you) pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 9:26-27

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

I think I will believe Jesus.

I changed the bold-facing above, and here's a few more:

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Yeshua` was the one who pronounced them "desolate" "even until the consummation (completion of the desolation)." The first half of the "Seven" were the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry" during His first advent, and HE was the One who brought "an end to the sacrifice and offering." (See Hebrews chapter 9 and 10.)

So, good for you. I think I will believe Yeshua`, too!

 

[veteran]

I believe the 144,000 number is literal, and applies only... to 144,000 elect of the children of Israel, just as it is written.

The "great multitude" out of all nations mentioned after them is about the elect Gentiles.

Why that is, is for the same reason why God predestined those of Israel to be Apostles, and we know Christ promised His Apostles to each sit upon a throne judging over the 12 tribes of Israel. He didin't assign that to Gentiles, but to Israelites. The elect Gentiles will sit upon thrones judging over their own peoples. The idea of 'nations' will... continue to exist in Christ's future Millennium reign, and into God's eternal Kingdom.

 

[JLB]

Retrobyter wrote -

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Yeshua` was the one who pronounced them "desolate" "even until the consummation (completion of the desolation)." The first half of the "Seven" were the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry" during His first advent, and HE was the One who brought "an end to the sacrifice and offering." (See Hebrews chapter 9 and 10.)

So, good for you. I think I will believe Yeshua`, too!


Brother,

Please understand that The Lord Jesus, according to scripture, was "cut off" that is to say "crucified", outside of the 70 week time frame.

To put it another way, the first 69 weeks ended when Messiah The Prince entered Jerusalem and was declared the son of king David, the son of a king is called a prince, on what we call Palm Sunday.

The 70th week begins, as we can clearly see, after the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, which is some 40 years after Messiah is cut off.


24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Two very important events happen after the 69 weeks:

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) Messiah shall be cut off.

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) the City and Sanctuary shall be destroyed.

Yet we still have another week.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

During the 70th week, 7 year period, there will be:

Sacrifice and offerings, which means there will have to be another Temple built.

in addition, we see the language the Jesus Himself reffered to - And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


For you to say The first half of the "Seven" were the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry" during His first advent, and HE was the One who brought "an end to the sacrifice and offering."

And try to asign the first half of the 70th week BEFORE the 69th week has ended is utter madness.

It's bad enough that you would take the words of Jesus when He was addressing the public in Matthew 23 and mix them up with a PRIVATE conversation He had with His Disciples in Matthew 24,
but to take a continual 7 year time period and try to divide it up and misapply it to another time period is typical of those who simply cannot or will not rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Brother, can you please see that the 70th week happens after Messiah is cut off.



Thanks. JLB

 

[Saint]

Please understand that The Lord Jesus, according to scripture, was "cut off" that is to say "crucified", outside of the 70 week time frame.

Hi JLB; where does the bible state this? Or is it a matter of translation and understanding?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB; where does the bible state this? Or is it a matter of translation and understanding?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Daniel 9:26

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The events of v. 26 take "outside" of the 70 weeks time frame.
To put it another way, the events of v. 26 happen "in between" the 69th week and the 70th week.


As I mentioned above:

Two very important events happen after the 69 weeks:

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) Messiah shall be cut off.

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) the City and Sanctuary shall be destroyed.

Yet we still have another week.

Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

To clarify, I think you mean Christ was crucified at the end of the 69th week, and then the sancuary and Jerusalem was destroyed still not having fulfilled the final 70th week. Many don't like it, but there's been a gap of about 2,000 years passed so far, and the final 70th week is still yet to be fulfilled. But some of the signs in prep of its future fulfillment are already manifesting today (i.e., with those preparing to build another Jewish temple in Jerusalem).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Yeshua` was the one who pronounced them "desolate" "even until the consummation (completion of the desolation)." The first half of the "Seven" were the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry" during His first advent, and HE was the One who brought "an end to the sacrifice and offering." (See Hebrews chapter 9 and 10.)

So, good for you. I think I will believe Yeshua`, too!


Brother,

Please understand that The Lord Jesus, according to scripture, was "cut off" that is to say "crucified", outside of the 70 week time frame.

To put it another way, the first 69 weeks ended when Messiah The Prince entered Jerusalem and was declared the son of king David, the son of a king is called a prince, on what we call Palm Sunday.

The 70th week begins, as we can clearly see, after the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, which is some 40 years after Messiah is cut off.


24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Two very important events happen after the 69 weeks:

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) Messiah shall be cut off.

After the 7 and 62 weeks ( 69 ) the City and Sanctuary shall be destroyed.

Yet we still have another week.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

During the 70th week, 7 year period, there will be:

Sacrifice and offerings, which means there will have to be another Temple built.

in addition, we see the language the Jesus Himself reffered to - And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


For you to say The first half of the "Seven" were the 3.5 years of Yeshua`s "ministry" during His first advent, and HE was the One who brought "an end to the sacrifice and offering."

And try to asign the first half of the 70th week BEFORE the 69th week has ended is utter madness.

It's bad enough that you would take the words of Jesus when He was addressing the public in Matthew 23 and mix them up with a PRIVATE conversation He had with His Disciples in Matthew 24,
but to take a continual 7 year time period and try to divide it up and misapply it to another time period is typical of those who simply cannot or will not rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Brother, can you please see that the 70th week happens after Messiah is cut off.



Thanks. JLB

No, sorry, can't do it. Yeshua` haMashiach was cut off after the 70th "Seven" began.
Actually, one needs to be extremely careful in the wording of Dani'el 9:24-27. Very few English versions do it justice. Technically, Yeshua` is cut off AFTER the 69 "Sevens," not at the END of the 69 "Sevens." Any time after the 69th "Seven" is "fair game"; i.e., it fulfills that prediction. YESHUA` HIMSELF pronounced them "desolate." And, it was YESHUA` who was the Sacrifice that caused the sacrifices and offerings to cease. HE was the One who put the gap in the 70 "Sevens," not some bozo "Antichrist" yet to come!

Look at it again in the Hebrew (transliterated):

Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha ...
l’kalei’ hapesha`
uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt
uwlkhapeer `aavon
uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’
v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
(Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible)




24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = a-people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon desolate:

24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon desolate:

24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand: from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon desolate:




All occurrences of "he" in verse 27 refer to the "Messiah," not to the "prince the comer," who is the object of a preposition in English and is a secondary noun in the construct state in Hebrew. The "he" is the SUBJECT of the verbs in verse 27 and they must have the last, singular, masculine subject before it, "Messiah," as their antecedent, not an object, even less the object of a prepositional phrase or noun of the construct state! This is just basic Hebrew Grammar 101!
Yeshua put the gap in the MIDDLE of the 70th "Seven," not between the 69th and 70th "Sevens."

 

[veteran]

The "he" of Dan.9:27 is NOT... our Lord Jesus Christ. It's the coming Antichrist... All one need do is keep to the subject and object of the 26th verse that determines that "he" of verse 27.

Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

We should easily know "the prince that shall come" is NOT... our Lord Jesus, for the above prophecy in blue after the colon : is only for after... Messiah was 'cut off' (crucified).

In the NT Satan is called a 'prince'. In Dan.10 Satan is inferred as the "prince of Persia" since the angel there said "the prince of Persia" withstood him for twenty one days, and then one of the chief princes Michael came to help him. No flesh prince of Persia can withstand an angel in Heaven, which should easily make sense that title is being used for someone in the Heavenly that could withstand the angel, and the Archangel Michael having to come to help.

That "prince that shall come" subject must continue into the 27th verse to know who the next "he" is about...

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Everything in blue past the colon : in verse 26 is about "the prince that shall come", i.e., the Antichrist.

Christ did NOT... confirm (make strong) any covenant for just a period of "one week" (7 years per the 70 weeks meaning). Christ came to END the Old Covenant and bring The New Covenant. The New Covenant is an everlasting Covenant. The Jews rejected Christ Jesus and had Him crucified, rejecting Him and The New Covenant, while The New Covenant continued with those who did believe on Jesus as Messiah.

Christ did not break any 7 year covenant in the middle of the 7 years. Nor did He cause the end of the daily sacrifices, for they continued after His crucifixion until the Romans came and destroyed the temple and city.

And especially, Christ did not setup any idol abomination of desolation inside the temple, which is what that "overspreading of abominations" is about. Instead, our Lord Jesus specifically WARNED of a coming "abomination of desolation" sitting in the temple at Jerusalem per Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14. In 165-170 B.C, Antiochus Epiphanes did that very thing, conquered Jerusalem and then desolated the inside of the 2nd temple at Jerusalem, and setup an idol abomination for all to bow in false worship to. That's the blueprint for the "abomination of desolation" event of the Book of Daniel.

That's why the events in blue all point to the 'prince' of the power of the air, the Antichrist that shall come in the last days just prior to Christ's second coming.

 

[JLB]

The abomination of desolation was a "FUTURE" event associated with the "END OF THE AGE" as spoken of by Jesus. Obviously the 70th week is also.

Matthew 24:15

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),


All the references to translation error or the twisting of words will not change the clear and simple words of Jesus.

Furthermore -

The last person mentioned before "he shall confirm a covenant" is "the prince who is to come", therefore the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come".

This is basic Grammer 101.


The very clear reference to "Messiah shall be cut off" and the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" is after 69th week, with 40 years of time passing.


THEN he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week ... So we see by the language used that the events of the 70th week are AFTER the "city and the sanctuary" being destroyed.



RECAP:

Messiah Cut off - 33 AD

City and Sanctuary destroyed - 70 AD, 37 years later, THEN he shall confirm a covenant .... being clearly after. Literally impossible to fulfill during the Life of Jesus on earth.


Sorry brother, I chose to believe the Word of God rather than the twisted incohernt rambling of men.



Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

What Roy proposes regarding it is Yeshua that confirmed the covenant is not new and many commentators and analysis have proposed the same thought. JFB for example states the following…

Daniel 9:27he shall confirm the covenant — Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, “I will give thee for a covenant of the people” (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, “The new testament in My blood”; Mal_3:1, “the angel of the covenant”; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Dan_11:30, Dan_11:32, “forsake the covenant,” “do wickedly against the covenant.” The prophecy as to Messiah’s confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus’ times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Dan_11:33-35). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Dan_11:30, Dan_11:32, referring to Antiochus, the type of Antichrist.

Others that hold to the same view would include Poole, Graser and Mede to name a few. I know there has been some discussion on the LXX Bible translation and many have varying views regarding that translation. That being said I find Brentons views to be very interesting…

Dan 9:26-27 Brenton And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. (27) And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

As you can see Brenton would attribute Yeshua as the one who confirms the covenant.

I personally lean to Yeshua as being the He in verse 27; in my opinion Yeshua was the covenant and He was the one who brought desolation to Jerusalem and the temple at the cross. The temple curtain was torn and there was no need for additional sacrifice after that time. I lean towards 3 ½ years remaining which will be great tribulation.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

What Roy proposes regarding it is Yeshua that confirmed the covenant is not new and many commentators and analysis have proposed the same thought. JFB for example states the following…

Daniel 9:27he shall confirm the covenant — Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, “I will give thee for a covenant of the people” (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, “The new testament in My blood”; Mal_3:1, “the angel of the covenant”; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Dan_11:30, Dan_11:32, “forsake the covenant,” “do wickedly against the covenant.” The prophecy as to Messiah’s confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus’ times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Dan_11:33-35). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Dan_11:30, Dan_11:32, referring to Antiochus, the type of Antichrist.

Others that hold to the same view would include Poole, Graser and Mede to name a few. I know there has been some discussion on the LXX Bible translation and many have varying views regarding that translation. That being said I find Brentons views to be very interesting…

Dan 9:26-27 Brenton And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. (27) And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

As you can see Brenton would attribute Yeshua as the one who confirms the covenant.

I personally lean to Yeshua as being the He in verse 27; in my opinion Yeshua was the covenant and He was the one who brought desolation to Jerusalem and the temple at the cross. The temple curtain was torn and there was no need for additional sacrifice after that time. I lean towards 3 ½ years remaining which will be great tribulation.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Yet Christ did not make any covenant with the Jews in Jerusalem, simply because they rejected Him. And the New Covenant He made with believers on Him as God's Promised Saviour, and that New Covenant still continues today. It doesn't matter there are some scholars that are against this idea, not all Bible scholars agree with each other.

Moreover, the prophecy is simple that the idea of breaking a covenant in the middle of a 7 years period ("one week") is also included, which again our Lord Jesus never did.

And then especially the "overspreading of abominations" is the most powerful clue that our Lord Jesus is not meant in the Dan.9:27 verse.


Dan.8; 11; & 12 are direct links to that overspreading of abominations event, which is another way how we can be certain our Lord Jesus is not meant in the Dan.9:27 verse...

Dan 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(KJV)

Dan 11:30-32
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

Dan 12:9-11
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)