The Rapture is going to take us Home

[hhogletree]

ByHerbert H.Ogletree
Christ also gave us the good news about the Great Rapture of the Bible, but the greatest was coming from the Churches of Revelations, coming from the one and only Church of Philadelphia.
Revelation 3:7-13. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Here we find Christ saying: Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the great hour of temptations, prename or demand named the Rapture that shall soon come upon all the earth.

A temptation which shall also come upon the whole world, being (The Great Tribulation) to try them that are left behind here on the earth after this the Great Rapture. Behold, I come quickly and hold fast that which thou hast, making sure that no man take thy crown.

 

[Strat]

Death has been taking people home for centuries,it not wise to assume one will be here at that time...i'm content to go the old fashioned way.

 

[veteran]

No such 'rapture' idea written in that Rev.3 Scripture anyway.

It's nothing more than spiritual blindness trying to wedge an idea of physical escape into that written Scripture. Obviously, being kept from the hour of temptation is not declaring anything about physical escape.


James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.
(KJV)

Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(KJV)

1 Cor 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
(KJV)


Being kept from the 'hour' of temptation in Rev.3 is about being given the power and strength from Christ in order to bear it, and thus 'overcome' in Him, receiving His promise of a crown of life.


Rev 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He That is holy, He That is true, He That hath the key of David, He That openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

That's our Lord Jesus. He holds the key of David, and He can open so that no one can shut, and He also can close so that no one can open. What's all that about?

It's not a literal key, like something of brass that opens some lock somewhere. Our Lord Jesus is giving an expression, and it's about a major mystery. If you know what that key of David is about, then it means He has opened the door to you, and you cannot be deceived or fooled (spiritually) by any man, nor angel, nor evil spirit, not even by the devil himself.

At the same time, with those who don't know, He can shut that door, and they cannot do anything to open it. He's going to relate this to understanding in His Word, for those who keep it, in the later verses.


8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

There it is. Because they were given strength, and kept... His Word, not denying His Name, our Lord Jesus opened the door of His Truth to them, and no man can shut it. It's about becoming truly free, in the spiritual sense, being impossible to be deceived (like His elect of Matt.24:24). Thus this Message to the Church of Philadelphia is a Message to His elect servants. These are the five wise virgins here; having that spare vessel of the Oil which made them different. Keep His Word like He admonished them for, and He will open your spiritual eyes and spiritual ears, to His Truth, and thus His Truth will make you free (to your spirit).


9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Why would our Lord Jesus bring up that "synagogue of Satan" at this point to them? Obviously, they had to know who He was speaking about. A mystery, it involves that "key of David". Christ's elect are especially persecuted by Satan's elect. Satan isn't concerned about those who can be deceived. He's concerned about Christ's elect which cannot... be deceived. They can do him the most spiritual damage. That's one of the reasons why Satan's servants are quick to show up in a place where Christ's Word is layed open for those wanting His Truth. Because of this persecution against Christ's elect, He's going to cause those of Satan's servants to bow at the feet of His elect to worship Christ Jesus in the future Milennium. Most of them won't like it when they will be forced to bow to Christ in front of His elect. But some of them may be turned, as written in Isaiah.


10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Because these kept His Word in patience, He promised He'd keep them from the 'hour'... of temptation. Notice how our Lord Jesus once again linked the idea of staying in His Word to that. What it's about is not being under deception during that 'hour' of temptation. His elect won't be tempted by the events of that one 'hour'.

What 'hour' is He talking about?


Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)

Rev 9:14-19
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

John 16:20-21
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
(KJV)

Luke 12:46
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(KJV)

Luke 12:11-12
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
(KJV)


Most probably don't realize how that 'hour' idea relates to the endtime tribulation timing; that's the period of trial that's to come upon all that dwell on the earth in the last days. Our Lord is pointing to a specific time, and a specific temptation with that 'hour'. The locust army are prepared just for that certain 'hour' to be released upon the earth. For the deceived, that 'hour' is to be the time of travai like a woman in labor pains, as a result of spiritual deception by what comes out of the 'mouths'... of those locusts. It's the eleventh hour of the laborers in the field. And the midnight hour in Matt.25 when the ten virgins got ready to meet the bridegroom ends that eleventh hour, an hour of testing. It's the 'hour' the beast king is to rule with his ten kings over all the earth per Rev.17.

It's the hour of temptation by the coming Antichrist/false messiah.



Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(KJV)

Him that overcometh what? that 'hour of temptation', that Antichrist-false messiah (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17) If our Lord Jesus meant that as a physical escape to Heaven instead, then why in the world did He admonish us to 'overcome' that hour? Well, which ones do you want to be found among, these like the Church of Philadelphia which Christ put an open door in front of? or those who travail with child spiritually, that don't keep The Word of His patience, and instead allow themselves to be deceived by false ones coming that preach the "another Jesus"? (2 Cor.11).

 

[Doppleganger]

John 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.

No such thing as a rapture!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom and happy Pesach, veteran and KillCarneyKlansman.

You both should learn to divorce the concept of the "rapture" from the pretribulational rapturist's point of view. While there's no such thing as the wild rapture theory of the pretribulational rapturist's position, there CERTAINLY will be a "rapture" in the sense of the "harpazoo" of 1 Thess. 4:17! To blanketly say, "No such thing as a rapture," negates other more palatable points of view, such as the prewrath and posttribulational rapturists' points of view.

DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER!

Shabbat shalom, Strat.

Death has been taking people home for centuries,it not wise to assume one will be here at that time...i'm content to go the old fashioned way.

Although true, I still would like to be among the saints LIVING at the time of the resurrection, instantaneous transformation of our bodies, rapture, and transport to Isra'el. Although I do not FEAR death's hold, knowing that our Master will break that hold, I do not relish the idea of dying!

 

[veteran]

Shabbat shalom and happy Pesach, veteran and KillCarneyKlansman.

You both should learn to divorce the concept of the "rapture" from the pretribulational rapturist's point of view. While there's no such thing as the wild rapture theory of the pretribulational rapturist's position, there CERTAINLY will be a "rapture" in the sense of the "harpazoo" of 1 Thess. 4:17! To blanketly say, "No such thing as a rapture," negates other more palatable points of view, such as the prewrath and posttribulational rapturists' points of view.

DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER!

Happy Pesach (Passover) to you to.

I very much adhere to the Greek 'harpazo' idea which Apostle Paul preached. I prefer to not use the word 'rapture' because it's not a word used in the KJV Bible for that event, and because it's a word used and abused by the pre-trib secret rapture school.

In my above post, my statement was about the Rev.3 Scripture not having any 'rapture' idea in it; I was not denying the 'harpazo' event written in other Scripture by saying that.

 

[rockytopva]

Whether you are…

1. Pre-Trib
2. Mid-Trib
3. Post-Trib
4. Don’t believe in the rapture at all…

You are commanded to be ready for this event to happen in any day and at any moment…

[sup]35[/sup]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[sup]36[/sup]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[sup]37[/sup]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[sup]38[/sup]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[sup]39[/sup]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[sup]40[/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]42[/sup]Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[sup]43[/sup]But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[sup]44[/sup]Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[sup]45[/sup]Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[sup]46[/sup]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[sup]47[/sup]Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[sup]48[/sup]But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[sup]49[/sup]And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[sup]50[/sup]The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[sup]51[/sup]And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 24

 

[teamventure]

No such 'rapture' idea written in that Rev.3 Scripture anyway.

It's nothing more than spiritual blindness trying to wedge an idea of physical escape into that written Scripture. Obviously, being kept from the hour of temptation is not declaring anything about physical escape.


James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.
(KJV)

Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(KJV)

1 Cor 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
(KJV)


Being kept from the 'hour' of temptation in Rev.3 is about being given the power and strength from Christ in order to bear it, and thus 'overcome' in Him, receiving His promise of a crown of life.


Rev 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He That is holy, He That is true, He That hath the key of David, He That openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

That's our Lord Jesus. He holds the key of David, and He can open so that no one can shut, and He also can close so that no one can open. What's all that about?

It's not a literal key, like something of brass that opens some lock somewhere. Our Lord Jesus is giving an expression, and it's about a major mystery. If you know what that key of David is about, then it means He has opened the door to you, and you cannot be deceived or fooled (spiritually) by any man, nor angel, nor evil spirit, not even by the devil himself.

At the same time, with those who don't know, He can shut that door, and they cannot do anything to open it. He's going to relate this to understanding in His Word, for those who keep it, in the later verses.


8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

There it is. Because they were given strength, and kept... His Word, not denying His Name, our Lord Jesus opened the door of His Truth to them, and no man can shut it. It's about becoming truly free, in the spiritual sense, being impossible to be deceived (like His elect of Matt.24:24). Thus this Message to the Church of Philadelphia is a Message to His elect servants. These are the five wise virgins here; having that spare vessel of the Oil which made them different. Keep His Word like He admonished them for, and He will open your spiritual eyes and spiritual ears, to His Truth, and thus His Truth will make you free (to your spirit).


9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Why would our Lord Jesus bring up that "synagogue of Satan" at this point to them? Obviously, they had to know who He was speaking about. A mystery, it involves that "key of David". Christ's elect are especially persecuted by Satan's elect. Satan isn't concerned about those who can be deceived. He's concerned about Christ's elect which cannot... be deceived. They can do him the most spiritual damage. That's one of the reasons why Satan's servants are quick to show up in a place where Christ's Word is layed open for those wanting His Truth. Because of this persecution against Christ's elect, He's going to cause those of Satan's servants to bow at the feet of His elect to worship Christ Jesus in the future Milennium. Most of them won't like it when they will be forced to bow to Christ in front of His elect. But some of them may be turned, as written in Isaiah.


10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Because these kept His Word in patience, He promised He'd keep them from the 'hour'... of temptation. Notice how our Lord Jesus once again linked the idea of staying in His Word to that. What it's about is not being under deception during that 'hour' of temptation. His elect won't be tempted by the events of that one 'hour'.

What 'hour' is He talking about?


Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
(KJV)

Rev 9:14-19
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

John 16:20-21
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
(KJV)

Luke 12:46
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(KJV)

Luke 12:11-12
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
(KJV)


Most probably don't realize how that 'hour' idea relates to the endtime tribulation timing; that's the period of trial that's to come upon all that dwell on the earth in the last days. Our Lord is pointing to a specific time, and a specific temptation with that 'hour'. The locust army are prepared just for that certain 'hour' to be released upon the earth. For the deceived, that 'hour' is to be the time of travai like a woman in labor pains, as a result of spiritual deception by what comes out of the 'mouths'... of those locusts. It's the eleventh hour of the laborers in the field. And the midnight hour in Matt.25 when the ten virgins got ready to meet the bridegroom ends that eleventh hour, an hour of testing. It's the 'hour' the beast king is to rule with his ten kings over all the earth per Rev.17.

It's the hour of temptation by the coming Antichrist/false messiah.



Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(KJV)

Him that overcometh what? that 'hour of temptation', that Antichrist-false messiah (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17) If our Lord Jesus meant that as a physical escape to Heaven instead, then why in the world did He admonish us to 'overcome' that hour? Well, which ones do you want to be found among, these like the Church of Philadelphia which Christ put an open door in front of? or those who travail with child spiritually, that don't keep The Word of His patience, and instead allow themselves to be deceived by false ones coming that preach the "another Jesus"? (2 Cor.11).

what a coincodence that the people who don't believe in a rapture are the same who show little fruit of the spirit.

the fact that there is a common hostility towards the rapture leads me to believe in it more. it seems like satan is just trying to get people to be hostile against the rapture.

 

[mark s]

If you think

ByHerbert H.Ogletree
Christ also gave us the good news about the Great Rapture of the Bible, but the greatest was coming from the Churches of Revelations, coming from the one and only Church of Philadelphia.
Revelation 3:7-13. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Here we find Christ saying: Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the great hour of temptations, prename or demand named the Rapture that shall soon come upon all the earth.

A temptation which shall also come upon the whole world, being (The Great Tribulation) to try them that are left behind here on the earth after this the Great Rapture. Behold, I come quickly and hold fast that which thou hast, making sure that no man take thy crown.

If you think about it logically,

The only way to be kept out of the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth, is to not be on the earth during that hour.

The time of temptation comes upon the entire world. We're not talking about the temptation itself. Stay with the exact words used. We're talking about the time period in which it occurs - "the hour".

These will be kept - guarded - outside of / away from - not the temptation, outside of the time period of the temptation. This can mean only one thing - to be removed from this space/time continuum. Taken out of this universe, into someplace different.

A couple of questions remaining are,

To whom should this passage be applied? To the believers of John's day, the assembly in Philadelphia? To end-times believers?

How is this removal to be accomplished? I've heard some suggest this comes by dying. That doesn't seem to quite fit to me.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[JLB]

Revelation 3:7-13

7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens": 8 I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

What an awesome testimony the Church of Philadelphia had in their time. We as well in our time can be encouraged from their example as well as others such as:

Noah, whom God kept during the trial of his day.

The Israelites in Egypt in days of Moses when God's judgement was poured out, yet none of it came upon the children of Israel.

The Three Hebrew children, whom The Lord kept when they were thrown into the fiery furnace and as a result the king of the world governing empire turned to God.

... And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

None of whom were removed from the earth that God might keep them from their trial in their day!


Be encouraged, God is well able to keep you as well. Be faithful to Him.


Thanks, JLB

From Foxes Book of Martyrs -

II. James the Great
The next martyr we meet with, according to St. Luke, in the History of the Apsotles' Acts, was
James the son of Zebedee, the elder brother of John, and a relative of our Lord; for his mother
Salome was cousin-german to the Virgin Mary. It was not until ten years after the death of Stephen
that the second martyrdom took place; for no sooner had Herod Agrippa been appointed governor
of Judea, than, with a view to ingratiate himself with them, he raised a sharp persecution against the
Christians, and determined to make an effectual blow, by striking at their leaders. The account
given us by an eminent primitive writer, Clemens Alexandrinus, ought not to be overlooked; that, as
James was led to the place of martyrdom, his accuser was brought to repent of his conduct by the
apostle's extraordinary courage and undauntedness, and fell down at his feet to request his pardon,
professing himself a Christian, and resolving that James should not receive the crown of martyrdom
alone. Hence they were both beheaded at the same time. Thus did the first apostolic martyr
cheerfully and resolutely receive that cup, which he had told our Savior he was ready to drink.
Timon and Parmenas suffered martyrdom about the same time; the one at Philippi, and the other in
Macedonia. These events took place A.D. 44.


Revelation 2:10 NKJV

Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

[Saint]

There will be a translation of the mature righteous at the beginning of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. These are those spoken of in Rev 7, the 144,000. These are those who have matured sufficiently to stand before God. These 144,000 are seen later in Rev 14 standing before the throne of God. These witnesses will be able to return to the earthly realm to witness to those immature children of the king, who are facing the great tribulation in order to be purged and made fully righteous.

The 144,000 are the first fruit of the spring harvest that come after the natural rains in the fall. The main harvest will occur in the fall after the latter rains.

The heavy spring rains were necessary to insure enough moisture for growth and harvest, Even so in this end-time, following the transla­tion of the first fruits, there must be a “latter-rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This will be the full and complete Pentecost, of which that described in Acts, chap. 2, was an earnest and foretaste.

This separation of fully mature and those who have yet to mature can be understood in the parable of the seeds and well as the parable of the virgins.

Pray that you are sufficiently mature in Yeshua to be included in the first fruit harvest or translation of the righteous. Notice there is no resurrection of the dead at this time, the resurrection of the dead occurs at the very end, spoken of in Rev 20:5. There is only one resurrection of the dead and it is described as the first resurrection.

 

[JLB]

There will be a translation of the mature righteous at the beginning of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. These are those spoken of in Rev 7, the 144,000. These are those who have matured sufficiently to stand before God. These 144,000 are seen later in Rev 14 standing before the throne of God. These witnesses will be able to return to the earthly realm to witness to those immature children of the king, who are facing the great tribulation in order to be purged and made fully righteous.

The 144,000 are the first fruit of the spring harvest that come after the natural rains in the fall. The main harvest will occur in the fall after the latter rains.

The heavy spring rains were necessary to insure enough moisture for growth and harvest, Even so in this end-time, following the transla­tion of the first fruits, there must be a “latter-rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This will be the full and complete Pentecost, of which that described in Acts, chap. 2, was an earnest and foretaste.

This separation of fully mature and those who have yet to mature can be understood in the parable of the seeds and well as the parable of the virgins.

Pray that you are sufficiently mature in Yeshua to be included in the first fruit harvest or translation of the righteous. Notice there is no resurrection of the dead at this time, the resurrection of the dead occurs at the very end, spoken of in Rev 20:5. There is only one resurrection of the dead and it is described as the first resurrection.

Your theory flies in the face of scripture.


1 Corinthians 15:20-24

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Scripture teaches that:

Christ was the firstfruits to be resurrected.

Then at His Coming [after the tribulation], the rest of His people will be resurrected.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.

Scripture teaches that this is the first resurrection -

Revelation 20:4-5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Brother, there is no resurrection BEFORE the FIRST resurrection.

The rapture or translation as you call it occurs AFTER the resurrection.

When He returns [after the tribulation] then thosewho are His will be resurrected.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

what a coincodence that the people who don't believe in a rapture are the same who show little fruit of the spirit.

the fact that there is a common hostility towards the rapture leads me to believe in it more. it seems like satan is just trying to get people to be hostile against the rapture.

So miles of hostility by those on the pre-trib rapture theory against those who are post-trib doesn't count? Just goes one more to show how that many on the pre-trib rapture theory are full of themselves. I've even in person encountered brethren on the pre-trib theory that wanted to fight me after I showed them the actual written Scripture which clearly goes against the pre-trib theory.

 

[7angels]

the problem is that most people do not really know why they stick with one rapture over another. there is a book on the rapture that explains the different stances on on pre trib, mid trib and post trib raptures and where they stand on each scripturally and why. this book is thicker than the bible. so unless you are a hard core debater or are a person that likes to do research on a subject this book on the rapture is just too much info for most people to want to read. most people have just enough knowledge that makes them dangerous and use that knowledge to become stubborn in their thinking and even if something comes along to prove their theories wrong these people still stick to their guns. it takes a humble person to admit that they may be wrong and want to find truth. without humility we will never grow in the Lord. for the Lord resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

 

[veteran]

the problem is that most people do not really know why they stick with one rapture over another.

Well, then those aren't listening to God in His Word, now are they? It's only one way, not many. It requires focus of the mind, and not being like a reed shaking in the wind with every pop doctrine some modern book author comes up with.

there is a book on the rapture that explains the different stances on on pre trib, mid trib and post trib raptures and where they stand on each scripturally and why. this book is thicker than the bible. so unless you are a hard core debater or are a person that likes to do research on a subject this book on the rapture is just too much info for most people to want to read.

I don't need to read it. My Heavenly Father's Word is The Primary Source. That's why we do well to study His Word first, and then we'll know whether some book of man is right or wrong.

most people have just enough knowledge that makes them dangerous and use that knowledge to become stubborn in their thinking and even if something comes along to prove their theories wrong these people still stick to their guns.

You and your Pre-trib rapture friends here have yet to prove anything Scriptural from that theory, so maybe you ought take your own advice and start getting knowledge in our Heavenly Father's Word instead of trying to mock those who have taken the time to do disciplined Bible study for theirselves. Oh, by the way, I've been asked several times to write a book regarding end-time Bible prophecy. But why should I do that, when it's already... written in God's Word for all to see, only if they'd take the time to read and study It.

it takes a humble person to admit that they may be wrong and want to find truth. without humility we will never grow in the Lord. for the Lord resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

It takes a humble person to realize when they're at a disadvantage because of lack of Bible study, especially when they can't even stay focused within one single chapter line upon line. If you're jealous of those who have taken time to discipline theirselves in God's Word, because you see how they stand with our Heavenly Father The Rock, then why wouldn't that drive you to get crackin' in God's Word for yourself?

 

[Saint]

Brother, there is no resurrection BEFORE the FIRST resurrection.

Hi JLB...where did I describe a resurrection prior to the first resurrection in Rev 20:5?

Please read the follow verses and tell me what you see...

And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
(Rev 14:3-4 ESV)

Does it not say the 144,000 have been redeemed from earth and are they not before the throne singing a song no one else can learn? Also please note what they are called; is it not the firstfruits for God.

No brother I think you will find they are exactly what I say they are

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Saint wrote -

There will be a translation of the mature righteous at the beginning of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation.

Define translation of the mature righteous ...

Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

There will be a translation of the mature righteous at the beginning of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. These are those spoken of in Rev 7, the 144,000. These are those who have matured sufficiently to stand before God. These 144,000 are seen later in Rev 14 standing before the throne of God. These witnesses will be able to return to the earthly realm to witness to those immature children of the king, who are facing the great tribulation in order to be purged and made fully righteous.

Not what my Bible says.


Rev 7:1-4
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(KJV)


Those four angels holding the "four winds" back is about God's future destruction on earth to end this present world. They are told to hold those winds back until... the 144,000 on earth are 'sealed' with God's seal. Simple.

Then at Rev.7:9 forward, John is shown a vision of a "great multitude" having white robes on, standing before the throne. That's a link to the Rev.14-15 events for when AFTER... Christ has returned. It's NOT about some pre-trib rapture prior to the tribulation. It's about their having come out... of great tribulation, having gone through trials for Jesus.

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)


No more hunger? no more thirst? no more heat from the sun? led to living fountains of waters (Waters of Life), no more tears? What time is that for? It's for after... Christ's return, the trib having already ended and over.

The 144,000 are the first fruit of the spring harvest that come after the natural rains in the fall. The main harvest will occur in the fall after the latter rains.

The firstfruits in Christ Jesus have to either die first, or be caught up on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, which of course means after... the tribulation, since Jesus ends the tribulation on that "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5; 2 Thess.2; 2 Pet.3:10).

The heavy spring rains were necessary to insure enough moisture for growth and harvest, Even so in this end-time, following the transla­tion of the first fruits, there must be a “latter-rain” outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This will be the full and complete Pentecost, of which that described in Acts, chap. 2, was an earnest and foretaste.

No such 'heavy spring rains' metaphor was given in that Rev.7 chapter. You're making all that up, just so you can serve up the fake pre-trib secret rapture theory.

Apostle James even associated the meaning of that 'latter rain' in relation to Christ's second coming...

James 5:7-8
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
(KJV)

And per Matt.24:29-31, 1 Thess.5, 2 Thess.2, Christ's coming and our gathering is after the tribulation, not before it like you've wrongly inferred!

This separation of fully mature and those who have yet to mature can be understood in the parable of the seeds and well as the parable of the virgins.

Now that's taking our Lord's parables TOTALLY out of their Biblical context. Guess doing that doesn't matter with those not really interested in God's Truth as written. The sower parable is about God's Word as the 'seed' that sowed, not people as seeds! Nor is there is ANY kind of 'seed' parallel given by our Lord Jesus in His parable of the ten virgins (Matt.25)! You're completely making all that up! It's real easy to prove you wrong too; only a matter of going to that parable in Matt.25 and reading it.

Pray that you are sufficiently mature in Yeshua to be included in the first fruit harvest or translation of the righteous. Notice there is no resurrection of the dead at this time, the resurrection of the dead occurs at the very end, spoken of in Rev 20:5. There is only one resurrection of the dead and it is described as the first resurrection.

What a bunch of corruptness! Pray that you're sufficiently mature in Yeshua to be rapture out prior to the tribulation? The way you've abused the Scriptures for the purpose of coming up with some new pop doctrine for the pre-trib rapture lie is astounding!

For those who don't know it yet, the firstfruits idea applied to Christ's Church is about the saints on earth that remain Faithful to Jesus until He comes AFTER the tribulation, and He finds them still doing His Work in the field (world). The apostate believers will not be of that group, but will bear their shame for not remaining faithful in waiting. The 144,000 and... the "great multitude" of Rev.7 both represent the firstfruits of Christ's Church that will reign with Him per Rev.20. Got it?

So what do you think the five foolish virgins will have when Jesus comes and find they fell away from Him? He told us. He will say to them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." (Matt.25). That most likely will be those who sought to 'fly away', to be rapture out prior to the tribulation, and failed to wait for His coming on "the day of the Lord."

 

[7angels]

veteran says

Now that's taking our Lord's parables TOTALLY out of their Biblical context. Guess doing that doesn't matter with those not really interested in God's Truth as written. The sower parable is about God's Word as the 'seed' that sowed, not people as seeds! Nor is there is ANY kind of 'seed' parallel given by our Lord Jesus in His parable of the ten virgins (Matt.25)! You're completely making all that up! It's real easy to prove you wrong too; only a matter of going to that parable in Matt.25 and reading it.

the seed parable can be used to show us those that are mature if it is in certain areas. in order to be able to have the 30, 60, and 100 fold returns we need to be mature in that area. a person can be immature in some areas and be mature in other areas. paul talks a lot about becoming mature in Christ. paul refers to it as becoming perfect but if you look up the meaning you will see that it refers to being mature. so yes the seed parable can be used in that way without changing the context of the meaning that is inferred in the parable of the seed.

So what do you think the five foolish virgins will have when Jesus comes and find they fell away from Him? He told us. He will say to them, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." (Matt.25). That most likely will be those who sought to 'fly away', to be rapture out prior to the tribulation, and failed to wait for His coming on "the day of the Lord."

that parable of the 10 virgins is about those that are filled with the Holy Spirit and those that are not. it has nothing to do with the rapture. btw the 5 virgins never fell away from Jesus. this parable refers those that have the Holy Spirit and follow him and those that do not. Jesus will only get us so far in our walk with God. we need the Holy Spirit to guide us, teach us, direct us, and ect. if Jesus could do all of it himself he never would of sent the Holy Spirit. even in God the trinity each one has their own jobs to perform. you don't see the Father being our intercessor or the Holy Spirit being our Savior. in this way we need to make the Holy Spirit part of our life and not just an observer. the Holy Spirit is necessary for us to live a victorious life in Christ. this parable refers to the christians that are overcomers in Christ and will be part of the millennium. the 5 virgins that got turned away were saved(we know this because an unsaved person cannot have the Holy Spirit) and will be in heaven for eternity but will not receive the overcomer's reward of being at the millennium.

God bless you all

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, brother Saint, once known as Sinner-Saint, right?

Hi JLB...where did I describe a resurrection prior to the first resurrection in Rev 20:5? Please read the follow verses and tell me what you see... And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, (Rev 14:3-4 ESV) Does it not say the 144,000 have been redeemed from earth and are they not before the throne singing a song no one else can learn? Also please note what they are called; is it not the firstfruits for God. No brother I think you will find they are exactly what I say they are In Yeshua Messiah, Bob

Y'know, bro, these 144,000 are Isra'elis. They are even listed by tribe! The 144,000 are those who have learned about the Messiah Yeshua` and are His heralds for the time before His arrival. The people who identify themselves as "Jehovah's Witnesses" are wrong about who these people are. Yahuwh ("Jehovah" or "Yahweh") would not have them call themselves the "144,000" unless they were actually descendants from those sons of Isra'el. Now, veteran may be right about the "10 lost tribes" and some who would otherwise call themselves "Goyim" or "Gentiles" (non-Isra'elis) may actually be descendants without realizing it, but CREDENTIALS should be found that prove their lineage. And, while it may be true that being sealed by the messenger may be "credentials" enough, how is one supposed to know that they have indeed been so sealed? What proof will there be of that sealing? The bottom line is this: I don't think that there's any evidence that those who are sealed will be anyone other than who Yochanan said they were: virgins of Isra'el who have not defiled themselves with women.

Also, being "redeemed from the earth" does not imply being taken from the earth to "Heaven." The words in Greek are, "hoi eegorasmenoi apo tees gees," and literally translate to "the purchased-ones away-from the ground." This doesn't lend itself to a "rapture" as much as it does to a "RESURRECTION!" Their bodies have been purchased (back) from the ground! They are standing with the Lamb Yeshua` upon haHar Tsiown (Greek: epi to oros Sioon), upon the Mount Zion! That's in YERUSHALAYIM or JERUSALEM!

As far as these being called "firstfruits," you're right. There's no "as" in the Greek text as was translated in the English version you used. They were called, "aparchee too Theoo kai too Arnioo" - "firstfruits for the God and the Lamb" - a wave-offering for God and the Lamb!