The Rapture is going to take us Home

[JLB]

Retrobyter wrote -


Notice that Gavri'el has already mentioned the end in verse 26, talking about the flood (that has NEVER happened yet) and how that desolations are decided until the end of a war. Verse 27 goes back to talk about details in between. Gavri'el goes back to discuss HOW the Messiah shall be cut off: (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el), ( B) how that He causes an end to sacrifice and offering, © how that He makes Isra'el and Jerusalem desolate because of their spreading abominations, and (D) how that the desolation will continue (1) until the end or completion, and (2) that everything determined against the ones pronounced desolate is "poured out" on them.

... (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el),

So you think - "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" means Jesus is strengthening the Davidic covenant for 7 years.


Tell me who is Jesus referring to when He says - "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Shalom, JLB.

Don't be ridiculous. Yeshua` PRONOUNCED them "desolate," and God through Titus MADE them "desolate!" Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that Jesus, speaking about the end of the age refers to the very words of Daniel we are discussing and says the abomination of desolation MARKS the beginning of the great tribulation, and I quote - "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be".

You would have us to believe that the destruction of the "city and the temple" in 70 AD was the great tribulation!


No wonder the body of Christ is so confused!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -


Notice that Gavri'el has already mentioned the end in verse 26, talking about the flood (that has NEVER happened yet) and how that desolations are decided until the end of a war. Verse 27 goes back to talk about details in between. Gavri'el goes back to discuss HOW the Messiah shall be cut off: (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el), ( B) how that He causes an end to sacrifice and offering, © how that He makes Isra'el and Jerusalem desolate because of their spreading abominations, and (D) how that the desolation will continue (1) until the end or completion, and (2) that everything determined against the ones pronounced desolate is "poured out" on them.

... (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el),

So you think - "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" means Jesus is strengthening the Davidic covenant for 7 years.


Tell me who is Jesus referring to when He says - "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Ummm... the people to whom He was speaking! "when YOU see..." (Greek: "ideete")! What difference would it make in today's warfare for someone to "flee to the mountains?"

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that Jesus, speaking about the end of the age refers to the very words of Daniel we are discussing and says the abomination of desolation MARKS the beginning of the great tribulation, and I quote - "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be".

You would have us to believe that the destruction of the "city and the temple" in 70 AD was the great tribulation!

No wonder the body of Christ is so confused!

In Matthew 24:21, you are reading only the tail-end of the sentence. You MUST include verse 20 in the reading of this verse or you are misleading others. Yeshua` presents a syllogism to His disciples, an "IF ... THEN ..." statement. IF they do not pray as instructed in verse 20, THEN there will be "great tribulation" or "terrible pressure!" This is not a "there will be terrible pressure regardless" statement!

I do NOT say that the destruction of the city and the temple in 70 A.D. was the "great tribulation"; it was AVOIDED BECAUSE the disciples prayed as instructed! It was still A "tribulation" or "pressure" or "distress." That's not to say that a "great tribulation" is not promised elsewhere nor that one will not come later in the end times (however soon that may be); however, THIS verse is not proof of that coming "great tribulation!"

Yeah .. yeah ... and as long as you adhere to this twisted version of eschatology, believers will CONTINUE to be confused!

 

[JLB]

Shalom, JLB.



Ummm... the people to whom He was speaking! "when YOU see..." (Greek: "ideete")! What difference would it make in today's warfare for someone to "flee to the mountains?"



In Matthew 24:21, you are reading only the tail-end of the sentence. You MUST include verse 20 in the reading of this verse or you are misleading others. Yeshua` presents a syllogism to His disciples, an "IF ... THEN ..." statement. IF they do not pray as instructed in verse 20, THEN there will be "great tribulation" or "terrible pressure!" This is not a "there will be terrible pressure regardless" statement!

I do NOT say that the destruction of the city and the temple in 70 A.D. was the "great tribulation"; it was AVOIDED BECAUSE the disciples prayed as instructed! It was still A "tribulation" or "pressure" or "distress." That's not to say that a "great tribulation" is not promised elsewhere nor that one will not come later in the end times (however soon that may be); however, THIS verse is not proof of that coming "great tribulation!"

Yeah .. yeah ... and as long as you adhere to this twisted version of eschatology, believers will CONTINUE to be confused!

Jesus says -

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Retrobyter says -

an "IF ... THEN ..." statement. IF they do not pray as instructed in verse 20, THEN there will be "great tribulation" or "terrible pressure!" This is not a "there will be terrible pressure regardless" statement!


Sir,

You need help.

 

[Saint]

Hi JLB; brother does anything occur outside of the will and authority of YHWH ? Man placed Yeshua on the cross but by whose plan and authority did it occur? Was not it Yeshua whom pronounced desolation on Jerusalem in Mat 23:38?

Mat 23:38 See, your house is left to you desolate.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Jesus says -

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Retrobyter says -

an "IF ... THEN ..." statement. IF they do not pray as instructed in verse 20, THEN there will be "great tribulation" or "terrible pressure!" This is not a "there will be terrible pressure regardless" statement!


Sir,

You need help.

Perhaps, but apparently I'm not going to get it from you. Let's now look at BOTH verses together both in the Greek and in the English:

20 Proseuchesthe de hina mee geneetai hee fugee humoon cheimoonos meede sabbatoo;
21 estai gar tote thlipsis megalee hoia ou gegonen ap’ archees kosmou heoos tou nun oud’ ou mee geneetai.

20 Proseuchesthe = 20 You-(plural)-pray-(to-God)
de = but
hina = so-that
mee = not
geneetai = shall-become
hee = the
fugee = flight/escape
humoon = of-you/your-(plural)
cheimoonos = during-rainy-season
meede = nor/(literally, but-not)
sabbatoo; = on-Shabbat/on-(the)-Sabbath;
21 estai = 21 shall-be/shall-exist
gar = for
tote = then
thlipsis = a-pressure/a-distress
megalee = large/huge
hoia = such-as
ou = not
gegonen = was
ap’ (apo) = away-from/since
archees = (the)-beginning
kosmou = of-(the)-world-system
heoos = unto/to
tou = the/this
nun = now
oud’ (oude) = but-no
ou = not (positively-answered)/nor
mee = not (negatively-answered)/ever
geneetai. = shall-become.

20 You-(plural)-pray-(to-God) but so-that not shall-become the flight/escape of-you/your-(plural) during-rainy-season nor/(literally, but-not) on-Shabbat/on-(the)-Sabbath;
21 shall-be/shall-exist for then a-pressure/a-distress large/huge such-as not was away-from/since (the)-beginning of-(the)-world-system unto/to the/this now but-no not (positively-answered)/nor not (negatively-answered)/ever shall-become.

20 But you pray (to God) so that your escape shall not become during the rainy season but not on Shabbat;
21 for then shall exist a huge pressure such as was not away from (the) beginning of (the) world system unto the now but no not (positively answered) not (negatively answered) shall become.

20 But you pray (to God) so that your escape shall not be during the rainy season nor on Shabbat;
21 for then shall be a huge pressure such as was not since (the) beginning of (the) world-system to the present nor ever shall be.

As I said, verse 20 doesn't have the end of the sentence, yet. Thus, the two verses go together, and the link between the two are the words "for then!" The implication is that IF they did not pray to God that their escape would not have to be during the rainy season nor on the Shabbat, THEN there would be such a huge pressure that no one would ever see its match! THEIR escape was during the time period between 66 and 68 A.D., prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and apparently they so prayed as they were commanded, because history records no such escape attempt and the "thlipsis" - the pressure - although bad, was not so bad that there were no survivors.

When you see the words "ye" or "you" in the KJV, these are PLURAL pronouns of the second person. "Thou" and "thee" are singular. Yeshua` was not talking to a nebulous everyone down through the ages; He was talking to His IMMEDIATE disciples! Granted, we can learn from this speech to them, but the "ye's" and "you's" are not directed to us; they were directed to the men (and women) who were around Him THAT DAY! Thus, some of His warning went directly to the disciples who were present when He made that speech, and some of His warning carried over into future generations.

Yeshua`, knowing that 70 A.D. was coming in just 40 years from that day, would certainly have given them the more DIRECT warning of impending doom than just some vague warning about a doom 2000 years in the future! It would not make sense otherwise!

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB; brother does anything occur outside of the will and authority of YHWH ? Man placed Yeshua on the cross but by whose plan and authority did it occur? Was not it Yeshua whom pronounced desolation on Jerusalem in Mat 23:38?

Mat 23:38 See, your house is left to you desolate.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Matthew 24 -

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the endshall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand ) ... 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Do you believe the great tribulation has already occured. Do you believe the destruction of the city and sancuary was the Great Tribulation.

More importantly, do you believe Jesus to be the abomination of desolation.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Your questions (without question marks, btw) for Bob are rather insulting. You should rephrase them.

Let me ask YOU a question or two: Do you believe that the "tribulation" is 7 years long and the "great tribulation" is 3.5 years long? If so, what makes you think so?

 

[JLB]

3 1/2 years.

Because scripture teaches ... But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27

Which Jesus confirms - "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24

 

[Saint]

Shalom, JLB.

Your questions (without question marks, btw) for Bob are rather insulting. You should rephrase them.

Let me ask YOU a question or two: Do you believe that the "tribulation" is 7 years long and the "great tribulation" is 3.5 years long? If so, what makes you think so?

Thats OK Roy, we can all get a little carried away in the discussions and I understand.

Actually I think I have stated my position regarding the desolation and the fact that in my opinion that Yeshua fulfilled the first 3 ½ years of the last week and we have yet 3 ½ years remaining of which I have labeled it as the Great Tribulation which Yeshua describes in Mat 24:21.

When we talk about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, none of us understand for sure what is intended. I’ll just stand by my statement that Yeshua declared desolation upon Jerusalem and the temple. Many say it was the Roman Standard which was taken into the holy place. Luke 21:20 implies it to be the Roman Army surrounding Jerusalem in 70AD, which make perfect sense because that is what brought it’s destruction. We know from history that apparently not one believer was killed because they all escaped to Pella and we are told that the same occurrence will happen at the end of this age when believers will escape to Bozarh when they see the armies of the Antichrist surrounding Jerusalem the second time.

Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter. Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat. For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.
(Isa 34:1-10 ESV)

Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come.
(Isa 63:1-4 ESV)

Isaiah 33:16-17 "He will dwell on high; His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks; Bread will be given him, His water will be sure. Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; They will see the land that is very far off." The LORD will provide for the remnant just as He did for the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt. A clear passage of the remnants gathering as prophesied by Micah.Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together (in Bozrah) like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people. The one who breaks open will come up before them; They will break out, Pass through the gate, And go out by it; Their king will pass before them, With the LORD at their head."

I'm really waiting on JLB to answer my quesions regarding the nations and leaders that YHWH uses to bring about His punishment.

In Yeshau Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

Matthew 24 -

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the endshall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand ) ... 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Do you believe the great tribulation has already occured. Do you believe the destruction of the city and sancuary was the Great Tribulation.

More importantly, do you believe Jesus to be the abomination of desolation.

I guess you're right, I thought Saint understood the Dan.9:27 "he" is not our Lord Jesus Christ.

Face it JLB, they're blinded to that event for the end and the Scripture.

 

[JLB]

Saint wrote -

I'm really waiting on JLB to answer my quesions regarding the nations and leaders that YHWH uses to bring about His punishment.

In Yeshau Messiah,

Bob

I have answered several of you question, without any response from you.

Everytime I answer your questions you come up with more and more questions.


I will go back to the last one.


Do you believe the great tribulation has already occured. Do you believe the destruction of the city and sancuary was the Great Tribulation.

More importantly, do you believe Jesus to be the abomination of desolation.


Do you believe Jesus is referring to Himself when He is teaching us about the words of Daniel -

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

This is the scripture Jesus is referring to -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Do you really believe Jesus is the abomination of desolation which is the ONE who makes desolate .

That is what you are trying to convince me to believe with your question.

The question is do you believe Jesus is those things.

Yes or No.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

I guess you're right, I thought Saint understood the Dan.9:27 "he" is not our Lord Jesus Christ.

Face it JLB, they're blinded to that event for the end and the Scripture.

No, veteran, JLB is NOT right! And, nor are you if you can't understand that the Olivet Discourse, presented in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, has parts in it that were for HIS DISCIPLES' times as well as "the end."

The Preterists' point of view, namely that everything in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century, is wrong.

HOWEVER, it is EQUALLY WRONG to suggest that everything in the Olivet Discourse is about "the end!"

The truth is not at either end of the spectrum! It's in the middle! And, a person can see that if he just pays attention to the PRONOUNS! When Yeshua` used verbs that were translated into Greek verbs that end in "-te," or when he used words that were translated into the Greek pronouns that are forms of "humeis" such as "humoon" or "humin," plural forms of the second person, He was talking DIRECTLY TO HIS STUDENTS STANDING AND SITTING RIGHT THERE! When he used other pronouns or less direct verb forms, His vision would be off into the future! It's not hard to understand, but one DOES need to get a good Greek New Testament or a good Interlinear and look it up for oneself!

If one can only use an English version, it would be better to go back to the KJV with the understanding that "ye" and "you" are plural while "thee" and "thou" are singular in the King's English. Take your KJV and mark all the pronouns in the chapters. Also include the "you understood" command forms of the verbs. Then, any "ye's" and "you's" you find there had to do with the first century! The rest has to do with "the end." It's that simple. It's not easy, but it IS simple.

 

[JLB]

Shalom, veteran.



No, veteran, JLB is NOT right! And, nor are you if you can't understand that the Olivet Discourse, presented in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, has parts in it that were for HIS DISCIPLES' times as well as "the end."

The Preterists' point of view, namely that everything in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century, is wrong.

HOWEVER, it is EQUALLY WRONG to suggest that everything in the Olivet Discourse is about "the end!"

The truth is not at either end of the spectrum! It's in the middle! And, a person can see that if he just pays attention to the PRONOUNS! When Yeshua` used verbs that were translated into Greek verbs that end in "-te," or when he used words that were translated into the Greek pronouns that are forms of "humeis" such as "humoon" or "humin," plural forms of the second person, He was talking DIRECTLY TO HIS STUDENTS STANDING AND SITTING RIGHT THERE! When he used other pronouns or less direct verb forms, His vision would be off into the future! It's not hard to understand, but one DOES need to get a good Greek New Testament or a good Interlinear and look it up for oneself!

If one can only use an English version, it would be better to go back to the KJV with the understanding that "ye" and "you" are plural while "thee" and "thou" are singular in the King's English. Take your KJV and mark all the pronouns in the chapters. Also include the "you understood" command forms of the verbs. Then, any "ye's" and "you's" you find there had to do with the first century! The rest has to do with "the end." It's that simple. It's not easy, but it IS simple.

Ok sir,

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring to when He made the following statemet - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, veteran.

P.S. Oh, and I forgot a key ingredient to the procedure mentioned above. One must also have a willing spirit to HEAR what Yeshua` was saying, regardless whether it "fits one's eschatological viewpoint" or not! If one already thinks he has all the answers and doesn't need to "hear it again" (or "hear it for the first time"), then he doesn't have a spirit that is willing to learn. He doesn't have a teachable spirit.

There are ALWAYS things to learn from the Scriptures. Sometimes, the things we learn will ENHANCE the things we believe because the new things we pick up on will further SUPPORT what we believe. However, sometimes, the things we learn will TEAR DOWN the things we believe because the new things we pick up on will OPPOSE what we believe. When that happens (and it SHOULD happen because NO ONE has it all sewn up), we must be willing to submit to God's Spirit and LEARN the truth and be willing to TEAR DOWN what we USED to believe, however painful and labor-intensive that process may be.

 

[JLB]

Shalom, again, veteran.

P.S. Oh, and I forgot a key ingredient to the procedure mentioned above. One must also have a willing spirit to HEAR what Yeshua` was saying, regardless whether it "fits one's eschatological viewpoint" or not! If one already thinks he has all the answers and doesn't need to "hear it again" (or "hear it for the first time"), then he doesn't have a spirit that is willing to learn. He doesn't have a teachable spirit.

There are ALWAYS things to learn from the Scriptures. Sometimes, the things we learn will ENHANCE the things we believe because the new things we pick up on will further SUPPORT what we believe. However, sometimes, the things we learn will TEAR DOWN the things we believe because the new things we pick up on will OPPOSE what we believe. When that happens (and it SHOULD happen because NO ONE has it all sewn up), we must be willing to submit to God's Spirit and LEARN the truth and be willing to TEAR DOWN what we USED to believe, however painful and labor-intensive that process may be.

Ok sir,

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring to when He made the following statemet - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Ok sir,

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring when He made the following statement - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Thanks, JLB

Happy to oblige, brother!

Because the Greek word "ideete" is used, a verb with a second-person-plural ending, he was talking to His disciples present RIGHT THERE when He said, "when YOU see." Therefore, the "abomination of desolation" must be something that the disciples of the first century could see! And, as Bob pointed out, Luke mentioned Yeshua` saying something else that Matthew didn't mention:

Luke 21:20-21
20 And when ye shall see (ideete) Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know (gnoote) that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

(I included verse 21 so one can see that it is in the same place of the Discourse as the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew's account.)

That happened in the first century at the beginning of the Roman siege of Jerusalem before Jerusalem's demise in 70 A.D.

Secondly, as I've already pointed out, verse 21 in Matthew 24 should NEVER be isolated from verse 20! I see your quote of the passage uses a period at the end of verse 20. Technically, that is wrong. The Greek punctuation (if punctuation was provided at all) is a raised period, like a superscripted period, not the terminal period as we use. At worst, it should be a semicolon, but there are other times when such punctuation was translated with a comma. They are NOT separate thoughts! They go together! And then, the "for then" links the two into a syllogism!

This gives the translation to be more of an "IF ... THEN ..." understanding. IF they do not pray, THEN they will experience "great tribulation" instead of just "tribulation."

We are told there will be a "great tribulation" in the future in Revelation 7:14, but we should NOT be getting that information from HERE in Matthew 24! That's NOT what Yeshua` was talking about! That's all I'm saying.

Now, another problem is seeing the English words "great tribulation" as a LABEL! Neither Yeshua` in Matthew 24 nor Yochanan (John) in Revelation 7 was using "great tribulation" as a label; they were saying the Greek words "thlipsis megelee" as we would use the words "terrible pressure" or "awful distress."

Notice, too, in verse 20 that Yeshua` said to pray that "YOUR flight (Greek: fugee HUMOON) not be in the winter (or rainy season; Greek: cheimoonos) ..." using the second-person-plural pronoun, "humoon", the genitive form of "humeis," used to show possession. Again, this shows that He was speaking DIRECTLY to His disciples standing or sitting right there on the Mount of Olives in His presence that day!

I'm NOT trying to mislead you into some weird idea that's different than what you were taught; I'm trying to LEAD YOU BACK to the truth of the Scriptures from wherever it is that you were ALREADY misled! I've learned that I was already misled there once, too! I no longer care to follow pretrib or posttrib or whatever; I just want to understand the Scriptures better and believe them for what they are saying, regardless where that takes me theologically!

 

[JLB]

Retrobyter wrote -

Happy to oblige, brother!

The problem is you did not oblige.

I asked you a very simple, straight-forward question and you did not answer.

I will ask you again -

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring when He made the following statement - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you believe the above mentioned scripture to be referring to 70 AD or the last days.

To put it even more simply -

Do you believe the great tribulation that Jesus referred to in verse 21 happened in 70 AD or has yet to happened.

Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

JLB it’s been said several times; both Roy and myself have stated emphatically that only the first 3 ½ years has occurred and there is yet the last 3 ½ years of GREAT TRIBULATION remaining at the end of this age.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

JLB it’s been said several times; both Roy and myself have stated emphatically that only the first 3 ½ years has occurred and there is yet the last 3 ½ years of GREAT TRIBULATION remaining at the end of this age.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

That's not the question.

Answer the question as I have asked it.

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring when He made the following statement - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you believe the above mentioned scripture to be referring to 70 AD or the last days.

To put it even more simply -

Do you believe the great tribulation that Jesus referred to in verse 21 happened in 70 AD or has yet to happened.

Thanks, JLB

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -

Happy to oblige, brother!

The problem is you did not oblige.

I asked you a very simple, straight-forward question and you did not answer.

I will ask you again -

Tell me to what time period is Jesus referring when He made the following statement - The days of the disciples or the last days -


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you believe the above mentioned scripture to be referring to 70 AD or the last days.

To put it even more simply -

Do you believe the great tribulation that Jesus referred to in verse 21 happened in 70 AD or has yet to happened.

Thanks, JLB

Oh, good grief, Charlie Brown!
(When are going to use question marks?)

Okay, one last time: Here's the simple, straight answers:

Yeshua` (Jesus) was referring to the time period of the days of the disciples when He made His statement in Matthew 24:15-21.

I believe the above mentioned scripture to be referring to 70 A.D.

You asked, "Do you believe the great tribulation that Jesus referred to in verse 21 happened in 70 AD or has yet to happened?" To this, I will answer, "has yet to happen," although YOUR WORDING of the question is all befuddled! The "great tribulation" to which Yeshua` referred neither happened in 70 A.D. nor will it EVER happen! It was avoided, and that moment in history is GONE!

There will be A "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14), but it's not the same thing! There's not "7 years of tribulation" nor are there "3.5 years of tribulation." The "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") has been going off and on for almost 2,000 years and will mushroom at the end into a "balloon payment" of a "great tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis megalee = "horrific pressure") at the end. THEN, there will be 3.5 years of the second half of the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27. The "tribulation" DOES NOT EQUAL the "70th Seven" of Dani'el! Understand?

Not even half of it!