The Rapture is going to take us Home

[JLB]

Saint wrote -

I personally lean to Yeshua as being the He in verse 27; in my opinion Yeshua was the covenant and He was the one who brought desolation to Jerusalem and the temple at the cross. The temple curtain was torn and there was no need for additional sacrifice after that time. I lean towards 3 ½ years remaining which will be great tribulation.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


For that to be correct, here is what you would have me believe - The word Then represents that the events of v. 27 happens BEFORE the events of v. 26.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week ...


Here's how that would read -

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself [AD 33]... and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.[70 AD]...
Then [before all that] he shall confirm a covenant ...

Do you really believe the events of v. 27 come before the events of v. 26?

The sequence of events happen in order -

v. 25 Messiah The Prince - Palm Sunday

After that, Messiah is cut off - Passover - v.26 AD 33

v.26 the city and the sanctuary are destroyed - AD 70

The timeline has brought us to the year 70 AD, now we are to believe the scriptures revert back in time to when Jesus is still operating in His ministry.

v. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week ... sometime after AD 70


The events of v. 27 happen after the events of v. 26 !


Here's another example in scripture -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Again we see the word THEN used to describe the order of events. The Sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, THEN AFTER THAT The sign of The Son of Man will appear, THEN AFTER THAT the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Notice that the tribes of the earth don't untill the Son of Man appears.


Brother, please try and see that the events of Daniel 9:27 come after then events of v 26.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

Saint wrote -

I personally lean to Yeshua as being the He in verse 27; in my opinion Yeshua was the covenant and He was the one who brought desolation to Jerusalem and the temple at the cross. The temple curtain was torn and there was no need for additional sacrifice after that time. I lean towards 3 ½ years remaining which will be great tribulation.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


For that to be correct, here is what you would have me believe - The word Then represents that the events of v. 27 happens BEFORE the events of v. 26.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week ...


Here's how that would read -

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself [AD 33]... and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.[70 AD]...
Then [before all that] he shall confirm a covenant ...

Do you really believe the events of v. 27 come before the events of v. 26?

The sequence of events happen in order -

v. 25 Messiah The Prince - Palm Sunday

After that, Messiah is cut off - Passover - v.26 AD 33

v.26 the city and the sanctuary are destroyed - AD 70

The timeline has brought us to the year 70 AD, now we are to believe the scriptures revert back in time to when Jesus is still operating in His ministry.

v. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week ... sometime after AD 70


The events of v. 27 happen after the events of v. 26 !


Here's another example in scripture -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Again we see the word THEN used to describe the order of events. The Sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, THEN AFTER THAT The sign of The Son of Man will appear, THEN AFTER THAT the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Notice that the tribes of the earth don't untill the Son of Man appears.


Brother, please try and see that the events of Daniel 9:27 come after then events of v 26.


Thanks, JLB

That's very true. The prophecy requires the events of Dan.9:26 to occur prior to the events of Dan.9:27.

Christ is crucified in the first part of Dan.9:26, and then the Scripture specifically says He is "cut off". Biblically, that idea of 'cut off" means He has nothing more to do with Jerusalem after that. And that's true, and will only change with His second coming.

 

[Saint]

I see nothing odd about the narrative what so ever; it is just two different aspects to the prophecy but then I’m not a literacy critic either, I can barely operate this keyboard.

Let me ask this question was Yeshua the promise; was not He the covenant of promise guarantee by the Father?… Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations,


Another question; was any activity in the temple acknowledged by the Father after the cross, did all sacrifice and oblations utterly cease at that point? Now I know you might say that some sacrificial activity between that point and 70AD did occur but did it have any spiritual consequence? While I’m at it, another question; could there be any greater abomination then that committed when Yeshua was put on the tree? I mean really they crucified God didn’t they.

I don’t expect this issue to be resolved on this board, all we do is express our opinions and exchange ideals; iron doe sharpen iron and every once in a while we connect in understanding and we move forward.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

I see nothing odd about the narrative what so ever; it is just two different aspects to the prophecy but then I’m not a literacy critic either, I can barely operate this keyboard.

Let me ask this question was Yeshua the promise; was not He the covenant of promise guarantee by the Father?… Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations,

Yes, our Lord Jesus serves as The New Covenant per God's Plan of Salvation. But it's a Covenant that never... will be broken between God and those who believe. The unbelieving can refuse it, but that refusal can never end it nor break it with those who do believe. This is why it is impossible for the Dan.9:27 covenant to mean our Lord Jesus Christ. Instead, it's about a covenant or pact that man makes, and in the Daniel 8, 11 & 12 chapter examples, it's about a specific man exalting himself above God. Just so happens, that is one of the very specific warnings for those living in the end of days, the coming of a false one to exalt himself in place of God, demanding the whole earth bow in worship to him instead (Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2; Rev.13:11-17; 2 Cor.11).

Another question; was any activity in the temple acknowledged by the Father after the cross, did all sacrifice and oblations utterly cease at that point? Now I know you might say that some sacrificial activity between that point and 70AD did occur but did it have any spiritual consequence?

After Christ's crucifixion, no, Christ had nothing more to do with that temple in Jerusalem. It's coming destruction by the Romans also confirms that, and the fact it has never yet been built again also confirms that. Even though the unbelieving Jews continued to do sacrifices and oblations with that temple before the Romans came, doing that meant nothing, no advantage, just as doing that today serves no advantage, but is now an abomination since Christ Jesus died on the cross to become The Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time.

Another point that confirms that is how the Christian nations sought to establish Jerusalem again under the Crusades that began from attacks upon Christian pilgrimages to the holy land. If Christ Jesus still had somewhat to do with Jerusalem after the cross, He would have reestablished it then, instead of stirring up the Muslims to end Christian attempts to establish it under Christ. The Islamic Mosque upon the temple mount is also further proof of that.

While I’m at it, another question; could there be any greater abomination then that committed when Yeshua was put on the tree? I mean really they crucified God didn’t they.

Yes, there can be, and there is a greater abomination than the crucifying of our Lord Jesus Christ. The greater abomination is with one exalting himself in place of God, wanting to be worshipped as God in His Place. That sin is specifically what the anointed cherub Satan did in the beginning, called the Devil, and that old serpent (Rev.12:9; Isa.14; 1 John 3:8). It is the specific sin that Apostle Paul was pointing to in the 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter to occur just prior to Christ's return and our gathering on the day of The Lord.

I don’t expect this issue to be resolved on this board, all we do is express our opinions and exchange ideals; iron doe sharpen iron and every once in a while we connect in understanding and we move forward.

That would occur more often if more would stick to the simplicity of Scripture as written instead of defaulting to the traditions of men. The inability of many to do that confirms the prophecy about the "spirit of slumber" God has put upon many. Very perilous times we're living in today with the number of doctrines out there which many assume are written in God's Word but really are not.

 

[JLB]

Bob wrote -

I don’t expect this issue to be resolved on this board, all we do is express our opinions and exchange ideals; iron doe sharpen iron and every once in a while we connect in understanding and we move forward.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


Bob,

Do you see the events of v. 27 happening after the events of v. 26.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

Bob wrote -

I don’t expect this issue to be resolved on this board, all we do is express our opinions and exchange ideals; iron doe sharpen iron and every once in a while we connect in understanding and we move forward.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


Bob,

Do you see the events of v. 27 happening after the events of v. 26.


Thanks, JLB

I do also, don't you?

And if not, then why not, since that's how the prophecy is laid out?

 

[JLB]

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


The events of v. 27 being after 70 AD cannot be describing "he" as being Jesus.

Furthermore since the Temple is destroyed in v. 26 [70 Ad] and v. 27 describes the activity of a temple then we know that a temple must be "rebuilt" for the events of v. 27 to be fulfilled.

Which also lines up with what Paul taught about this matter.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Next, I would like to discuss the gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks.


Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The events of v. 27 being after 70 AD cannot be describing "he" as being Jesus.

I definitely agree, so does Saint; it's just that he broke that down more in his posts.

Furthermore since the Temple is destroyed in v. 26 [70 Ad] and v. 27 describes the activity of a temple then we know that a temple must be "rebuilt" for the events of v. 27 to be fulfilled.

Yep. Rev.11 is pointing to that rebuilt temple also. The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build it. The question is when, before the 'man of sin' shows up, or after he arrives. I lean towards his arrival being required, since I see no reconciliation between Judaism and Islam about the temple mount without a miracle.

Which also lines up with what Paul taught about this matter.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Yep. The very same... kind of sin that the Devil first did in the beginning to cause wickedness.

Next, I would like to discuss the gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks.


Thanks, JLB

Go to brother.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The "he" of Dan.9:27 is NOT... our Lord Jesus Christ. It's the coming Antichrist... All one need do is keep to the subject and object of the 26th verse that determines that "he" of verse 27.

Dan 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

We should easily know "the prince that shall come" is NOT... our Lord Jesus, for the above prophecy in blue after the colon : is only for after... Messiah was 'cut off' (crucified).

In the NT Satan is called a 'prince'. In Dan.10 Satan is inferred as the "prince of Persia" since the angel there said "the prince of Persia" withstood him for twenty one days, and then one of the chief princes Michael came to help him. No flesh prince of Persia can withstand an angel in Heaven, which should easily make sense that title is being used for someone in the Heavenly that could withstand the angel, and the Archangel Michael having to come to help.

That "prince that shall come" subject must continue into the 27th verse to know who the next "he" is about...

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Everything in blue past the colon : in verse 26 is about "the prince that shall come", i.e., the Antichrist.

Christ did NOT... confirm (make strong) any covenant for just a period of "one week" (7 years per the 70 weeks meaning). Christ came to END the Old Covenant and bring The New Covenant. The New Covenant is an everlasting Covenant. The Jews rejected Christ Jesus and had Him crucified, rejecting Him and The New Covenant, while The New Covenant continued with those who did believe on Jesus as Messiah.

Christ did not break any 7 year covenant in the middle of the 7 years. Nor did He cause the end of the daily sacrifices, for they continued after His crucifixion until the Romans came and destroyed the temple and city.

And especially, Christ did not setup any idol abomination of desolation inside the temple, which is what that "overspreading of abominations" is about. Instead, our Lord Jesus specifically WARNED of a coming "abomination of desolation" sitting in the temple at Jerusalem per Matt.24:15 and Mark 13:14. In 165-170 B.C, Antiochus Epiphanes did that very thing, conquered Jerusalem and then desolated the inside of the 2nd temple at Jerusalem, and setup an idol abomination for all to bow in false worship to. That's the blueprint for the "abomination of desolation" event of the Book of Daniel.

That's why the events in blue all point to the 'prince' of the power of the air, the Antichrist that shall come in the last days just prior to Christ's second coming.

Yes, that is the argument of the error; however, you're neglecting the little word "of" in the English translation of verse 26. The subject of the sentence in 26b is NOT the "prince the comer" but is the "PEOPLE OF the prince the comer." You're right that the "prince the comer" is not the Messiah, and that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that the subject associated with the "he's" in verse 27 CANNOT BE the "prince the comer" in verse 26! The "prince the comer" is the OBJECT of the preposition "of!" It is NOT the subject of the sentence at all! One MUST go back farther to find a subject that can be the subject of the verbs in verse 27. That subject is the "Messiah" of verse 26a.

Furthermore, you are mistaken about several other points here. First, Yeshua` DID confirm a covenant with many for one "Seven." Just as David was ruler over the Jews for 7 years in Hevrown (Hebron) before He was king over the entire nation for 33 more years, so too Yeshua` was to be King of the Jews for 7 years before He would become King over Shomron (Samaria) and the rest of the world. This is to be found in the Davidic Covenant which is confirmed by several prophecies in 2 Samuel 23:1-5; 1 Chronicles 11:1-3; 17:1-14; 28:2-20; 2 Chronicles 21:5-7; Psalm 2:6-9; 89:1-4, 26-37; Isaiah 42:5-9; Jeremiah 33:14-22, 25-26; Zechariah 11:7-13; Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15; 3:16-17; 16:28-17:13; Mark 1:9-11; 9:1-13; Luke 3:21-22; 9:27-36; 20:9-20; Hebrews 1:5-9; and 2 Peter 1:16-18. When God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" at both His baptism and His transfiguration, the covenant was confirmed! The fact that Yeshua` asked to be baptized by Yochanan when Yochanan admitted that it should be the other way around, He fulfilled all these prophecies!

2 Sam. 23:1-5
23 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.
5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
KJV

1 Chron. 11:1-3
11 Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh.
2 And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the Lord thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel.
3 Therefore came all the elders of Israel to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the Lord; and they anointed David king over Israel, according to the word of the Lord by Samuel.
KJV

1 Chron. 17:1-14
17 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the Lord remaineth under curtains.
2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.
3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,
4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the Lord, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in:
5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another.
6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
KJV

1 Chron. 28:2-20
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the Lord God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the Lord, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the Lord your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the Lord hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the Lord, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the Lord, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the Lord.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord.
19 All this, said David, the Lord made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the Lord God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the Lord.
KJV

2 Chron. 21:5-7
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord.
7 Howbeit the Lord would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.
KJV

Ps. 89:1-4, 26-37
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
...
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Isa. 42:5-9
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
KJV

Jer. 33:14-22, 25-26
14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
...
25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
KJV

Zech. 11:7-13
7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
KJV

These verses (and more) prove that the Davidic Covenant was established with Yeshua` and He confirmed that Covenant when He submitted to being baptized. Look at the decree in Psalm 2:

Psalm 2:6-9
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
KJV

Second, consider this passage in Hebrews:

Heb. 10:1-22
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

So, HE was the one who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease! He ended the sacrifices by ending their NEED! God no longer accepted their sacrifices in spite of the fact that they continued to offer them for the next 40 years! It is GOD who determines when the butchering of an animal becomes a "sacrifice!"

It's more of a legend than a Biblical fact, but the Jews have the legend that the scarlet thread used for the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement used to turn white, signifying that God had accepted their sacrifice. After Yeshua` died, the scarlet thread never turned white again!

 

[JLB]

The last person mentioned before "he shall confirm a covenant" is "the prince who is to come", therefore the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come".

This is basic Grammer 101.


... the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come". End of discussion.

If you keep arguing againt basic sentence construction then it is evident you can't comprehend the english language!!!


You don't have to keep bringing up other scriptures that don't pertain to this discussion all you have to realize is the events of v. 27 come after the events of v. 26.




Thank you, JLB

 

[veteran]

The last person mentioned before "he shall confirm a covenant" is "the prince who is to come", therefore the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come".

This is basic Grammer 101.


... the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come". End of discussion.

If you keep arguing againt basic sentence construction then it is evident you can't comprehend the english language!!!


You don't have to keep bringing up other scriptures that don't pertain to this discussion all you have to realize is the events of v. 27 come after the events of v. 26.


Thank you, JLB

Most Jews are trained against how that Daniel 9:26-27 actually reads. I've had enough discussions with them about it that I feel safe in saying that. But surprisingly, some of them do... understand it as you, Spirit and I have shown.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

The last person mentioned before "he shall confirm a covenant" is "the prince who is to come", therefore the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come".

This is basic Grammer 101.


... the subject of "he shall confirm a covenant is "the prince who is to come". End of discussion.

If you keep arguing againt basic sentence construction then it is evident you can't comprehend the english language!!!


You don't have to keep bringing up other scriptures that don't pertain to this discussion all you have to realize is the events of v. 27 come after the events of v. 26.




Thank you, JLB

Three important things here:

First, I take it you mean "basic ENGLISH Grammar 101" (not "Grammer," btw). However, neither English nor Hebrew would use the object of a preposition (particularly, the subordinate nouns in a noun construct state) as the antecedent for subsequent pronouns (or the verbs that are translated with pronouns added)! Furthermore, we're not really supposed to be using the ENGLISH grammar to understand HEBREW writing! We should be using HEBREW grammar BEFORE translation to truly understand a passage!

Second, the Scriptures that I brought up are Scriptures that prove that Yeshua` truly DID CONFIRM (not "make") a covenant - not the New Covenant or even the Old Covenant, but the Davidic Covenant, the Covenant that God made with David haMelekh (King David) to give him an everlasting dynasty, and Yeshua` the "Son of David," haMashiach Elohiym (the Anointed of God), will fulfill that dynasty promise! They are NOT "unrelated" or "unimportant."

Third, you need to understand a little more about the Hebrew thought process. It is NOT necessarily true that events that are merely LISTED after other events follow those events chronologically. Often in Hebrew thought, a summary is made before the individual subpoints are listed. A Westerner can think of it as listing a major point of an outline before one lists the subpoints of that major point.

Here's verse 26 and 27 again:

26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

Notice that Gavri'el has already mentioned the end in verse 26, talking about the flood (that has NEVER happened yet) and how that desolations are decided until the end of a war. Verse 27 goes back to talk about details in between. Gavri'el goes back to discuss HOW the Messiah shall be cut off: (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el), (B) how that He causes an end to sacrifice and offering, (C) how that He makes Isra'el and Jerusalem desolate because of their spreading abominations, and (D) how that the desolation will continue (1) until the end or completion, and (2) that everything determined against the ones pronounced desolate is "poured out" on them.

Now, I know that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still," but if one adamantly adheres to points already shown to have different meanings than to what one is adhering, then there's nothing left to say but, "We'll just have to agree to disagree."

 

[Saint]

If everything was in sequence in these prophecies we would be in real trouble when reading Revelation wouldn’t we?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

If everything was in sequence in these prophecies we would be in real trouble when reading Revelation wouldn’t we?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

It's obvious to me why our Lord Jesus gave John the visions in Revelation the way He did. It requires being familar in all of God's Word, and by help of The Holy Spirit, to fathom their true event order. I agree with our Lord Jesus doing that, for why should He just throw out His pearls so the wicked can trample upon them?

 

[JLB]

If everything was in sequence in these prophecies we would be in real trouble when reading Revelation wouldn’t we?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I for one am talking about Daniel 9:26 and 27, If somehow, in your mind that means "all these prophecies" in the book of Revelation then I would have to agree with you that you are in real trouble.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

I for one am talking about Daniel 9:26 and 27, If somehow, in your mind that means "all these prophecies" in the book of Revelation then I would have to agree with you that you are in real trouble.


Thanks, JLB

The point is JLB; we should not be locked into expecting a certain alignment of scripture in all of the prophecies.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Shalom, JLB.



Three important things here:

First, I take it you mean "basic ENGLISH Grammar 101" (not "Grammer," btw). However, neither English nor Hebrew would use the object of a preposition (particularly, the subordinate nouns in a noun construct state) as the antecedent for subsequent pronouns (or the verbs that are translated with pronouns added)! Furthermore, we're not really supposed to be using the ENGLISH grammar to understand HEBREW writing! We should be using HEBREW grammar BEFORE translation to truly understand a passage!

Second, the Scriptures that I brought up are Scriptures that prove that Yeshua` truly DID CONFIRM (not "make") a covenant - not the New Covenant or even the Old Covenant, but the Davidic Covenant, the Covenant that God made with David haMelekh (King David) to give him an everlasting dynasty, and Yeshua` the "Son of David," haMashiach Elohiym (the Anointed of God), will fulfill that dynasty promise! They are NOT "unrelated" or "unimportant."

Third, you need to understand a little more about the Hebrew thought process. It is NOT necessarily true that events that are merely LISTED after other events follow those events chronologically. Often in Hebrew thought, a summary is made before the individual subpoints are listed. A Westerner can think of it as listing a major point of an outline before one lists the subpoints of that major point.

Here's verse 26 and 27 again:

26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

Notice that Gavri'el has already mentioned the end in verse 26, talking about the flood (that has NEVER happened yet) and how that desolations are decided until the end of a war. Verse 27 goes back to talk about details in between. Gavri'el goes back to discuss HOW the Messiah shall be cut off: (A) how that He strengthens the Davidic covenant to many (but not to all of Isra'el), ( B) how that He causes an end to sacrifice and offering, © how that He makes Isra'el and Jerusalem desolate because of their spreading abominations, and (D) how that the desolation will continue (1) until the end or completion, and (2) that everything determined against the ones pronounced desolate is "poured out" on them.

Now, I know that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still," but if one adamantly adheres to points already shown to have different meanings than to what one is adhering, then there's nothing left to say but, "We'll just have to agree to disagree."

I will use you version and your special thought process to evaluate what you believe.

27 And-he (Jesus)-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he (Jesus)-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he (Jesus) -shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

... he (Jesus) -shall-make-desolate...

You think Jesus is the desolater ?


Wow!

 

[Saint]

Tell me JLB was it Shalmaneser king of Assyria that invaded Samaria and took the Northern Tribes into captivity or was it actually God?

Was it Nebuchadnezzar king of Assyria that besieged and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and took Judah captivity or was it actually God?

In both cases it was God working through the instrument of His election to accomplish a purpose. In the case of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD it was God who used Titus to bring desolation so I think you can say yes, Yeshua was the one who brought desolation.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Great word Bob! Now the mystery of who the antichrist is has been solved.

According to you it's Jesus!


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Don't be ridiculous. Yeshua` PRONOUNCED them "desolate," and God through Titus MADE them "desolate!" Why is that so difficult for you to understand?