The Rapture is going to take us Home

[veteran]

Shalom, JLB.

Oh, good grief, Charlie Brown!
(When are going to use question marks?)

Okay, one last time: Here's the simple, straight answers:

Yeshua` (Jesus) was referring to the time period of the days of the disciples when He made His statement in Matthew 24:15-21.

I believe the above mentioned scripture to be referring to 70 A.D.

You asked, "Do you believe the great tribulation that Jesus referred to in verse 21 happened in 70 AD or has yet to happened?" To this, I will answer, "has yet to happen," although YOUR WORDING of the question is all befuddled! The "great tribulation" to which Yeshua` referred neither happened in 70 A.D. nor will it EVER happen! It was avoided, and that moment in history is GONE!

There will be A "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14), but it's not the same thing! There's not "7 years of tribulation" nor are there "3.5 years of tribulation." The "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure") has been going off and on for almost 2,000 years and will mushroom at the end into a "balloon payment" of a "great tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis megalee = "horrific pressure") at the end. THEN, there will be 3.5 years of the second half of the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27. The "tribulation" DOES NOT EQUAL the "70th Seven" of Dani'el! Understand?

Not even half of it!

Impossible for the "great tribualtion" Jesus mentioned having already started in the Apostles' days.

Dan 7:24-27
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
(KJV)

All one need do is simply count backwards per that prophecy. When that judgment shall sit, and that little horn's dominion is taken away, it means the end of that "a time and times and the dividing of time" period, which means a 'three and one half year' period.

That false one will have dominion over the saints for 3.5 years per that. And his dominion will be taken away and given to the saints, which is about the event of Christ's second coming.

So... 3.5 years back from the time of Christ's second coming (which is still future to us) makes it IMPOSSIBLE for that 3.5 year period to be past history!


So yes, "Good grief Charlie Brown", you're following a false traditon of men that goes directly against the written Scripture.

 

[Saint]

I am attaching this study on the translation accuracy of Brentons LXX for Daniel 9:25-27 because I feel that it grants understanding to this discussion.

Alternate Transliteration of Daniel 9:26​

I have recently conducted a great deal of intense theological research into the KJV transliterated passage of Daniel 9:26, and I hereby humbly submit my findings to the review and attention of your Biblical wisdom.

As I have so truthfully stated before, I make NO claim of Biblical Hebrew/Geek language proficiency, but merely present factual data that is logical and grammatically applicable, as well as easily accessible, to any concerned student of Bible theology.

In addition, I have submitted the following described Hebraic grammatical structure of Daniel 9:26 to a professor of Biblical Hebrew/Greek, and while he does NOT agree with the suggested implications and virtual outcome of my argument, because he has his own view, he does however, AGREE with the Hebraic grammatical accuracy and structure of the language and reading of Daniel 9:26 that I suggest.

The summation of my findings addressed below are based upon the instrument of legitimate application of Biblical Hebrew grammar and principals, that both verifies and supports the publication of the notable theological scholar Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, regarding his English transliteration of the Greek Old Testament Septuagint, published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851.

From an extract of his work we present the exact copied passages of Daniel 9:25 -27 for your analysis and review. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/brenton/lxx/Page_1065.html

25. And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem, until Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.
27. And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.

What we see in the above passages of Daniel 9:25-26 from the transliterated Greek Septuagint is that the coming ‘Anointed One’ (the Messiah) is without any doubt the suggested ‘final authority of destruction’ of both the former city of Jerusalem and its Holy Temple. As history records, this prophecy was fulfilled by Titus Caesar in 70 A.D acting as the prophesied ‘coming prince’ and agent for the ‘final authority’ (the Anointed One - Messiah).

To this end, in the transliteration of Daniel 9:26 listed below we see the Hebrew word ‘shachath’ (ishchith) translated as the English words ‘shall destroy’. While this transliteration is perfectly acceptable, there is also an equally viable transliteration of this word, which is ‘He shall destroy or He will destroy’. This same exact translation and Hebrew word (shachath – ishchith) is applied to several other OT passages – Daniel 8:24-25, and Psalms 78:38 – posted below.

Going forward, the next word of concern in the above Daniel 9:26 transliteration is the Hebrew words ‘am’ (om) which is KJV transliterated as ‘people’ and 'im (om) which denotes ‘with’. Regarding 'am vs. 'im, these two words do look pretty much identical in Hebrew. In fact, they both have the same two consonants (ayin and mem) – Strong’s Hebrew #’s 5971-5974.

The only difference is their vocalization, with the word for ‘people’ having a patach (a short ‘a’), and the word for ‘with’ having a hireq (an ‘i’). However, these vowels, neither of which would have been represented historically in either of these words with a mater lectionis (i.e., the use of a yodh or a waw to indicate which vowel was present), date to the era of the Masoretes (circa A.D. 800, give or take), so they are in a sense Interpretations and derivations generated from the original word. Moreover, Strong’s numbers were NOT even mentioned nor applied to Scriptural texts until the mid 1800’s.

Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate, per the above argument to make use of Biblical Hebrew emendation (a return to the original word) here, as did Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton in his transliteration of the OT Greek Septuagint and define the Hebrew word 'am/im (om) as ‘with’. Thus, one can authoritatively derive a reading that solves the problem of Daniel 9:26 and then reads, "he will/shall destroy the city and the holy place with the prince who is to come".

The conclusion of the above English transliteration of the Hebrew Daniel 9:26 is once again an exact supporting match to Brenton’s OT Greek Septuagint transliteration and suggests that the Messiah is the One who has the ‘final authority of destruction’ and the ‘coming prince’ is merely His instrument of fulfillment.

There are many Scriptural passages applying this same word ‘om’ transliterated as ‘with’ – Gen. 24:12, 31:32 Deut. 18:13 and the list goes on. A few examples are posted below.

However, in light of the above I must stress that the present KJV reading of Daniel 9:27 is completely acceptable as long as one concludes, as did the first 1611 KJV translators, that the Prince in both Daniel 9:25-26 are the same – the Anointed Messiah. This application of the current reading suggests that it was the Jews and their provocative actions, resulting in the crucifixion of the Messiah, that actually inspired and inflamed the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple by the Romans.

As such, you will ask the following question, “How could the ‘people [the Jews] of the coming Prince destroy their own city and sanctuary?’” in relation to Daniel 9:26.

The notable Jewish historian Josephus reveals in Wars of the Jews - Book V, Chapter VI, Section 1 the following.
...they [Jews] returned to their former madness, and separated one from another, and fought it out; and they did everything that the besiegers could desire them to do. For they never suffered from the Romans anything worse than they made each other suffer; nor was there any misery endured by the city which, after what these men did, could be esteemed new. It was most of all unhappy before it was overthrown; and those that took it did it a kindness. For I venture to say that the sedition destroyed the city, and the Romans destroyed the sedition. This was a much harder thing to do than to destroy the walls. So that we may justly ascribe our misfortunes to our own people...

In addition, Josephus reveals in Wars of the Jews - Book IV, Chapter 5, Section 2 the following.
...But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, [Jerusalem] and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city...

An additional preponderance of evidence that Jerusalem was indeed destroyed by/because of its own people (the Jews) is recorded in the OT prophecies of Micah 3:12 and Jeremiah 26:18.

These two prophecies reveal why the abominable and provocative actions of the Jews led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. The subsequent fulfillments of these prophecies were accomplished by God’s/Jesus’ appointed agents/instruments, first the Babylonians and then the Romans in 70 A.D.

Micah 3:12
Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
Jeremiah 26:18
Micah the Morasthite prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spake to all the people of Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Zion shall be plowed like a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of a forest.

Based on the above evidence (and previously submitted evidence) it does NOT matter either way we translate/transliterate Daniel 9:26 as follows, because it all resolves to the same – the ‘Prince’ in Daniel 9:26 and the ‘He’ in Daniel 9:27 are the Messiah.

1. ...and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...
2. ...and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming...
Meanwhile, this implies that the Messiah did exact divine retribution upon Jerusalem and the Holy Temple by the instrument of the ‘coming prince’ the Romans and Titus Caesar.

Moreover, the positive aspect of the above analysis is that the Hebrew transliteration (as well as the OT Greek Septuagint) of Daniel 9:26 leaves NO room for further speculation as to the identity of the subsequent allusive ‘HE’ in Daniel 9:27. The ‘Confirmer of the Covenant’ is clearly the Prince Messiah. To assume otherwise, after reading this analysis, would be purely theoretical/hypothetical speculation and NOT based on sound Hebraic grammatical FACTS.

In additional support of the above transliteration/translation of Daniel 9:26 showing the Messiah to be the ‘He’ of Daniel 9:27, we find that noted Biblical scholar Robert Young who published the Bible Text ‘Young’s Literal Translation’ also echoes the same understanding.

Thus, designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation, who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation which attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings.

The three passages posted below were scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan.

25. And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26. And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.
27. And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

In summary, I suggest that until another legitimate and viable alternative to the above-mentioned transliteration of Daniel 9:26, that can ‘Specifically Name’ the He of Daniel 9:27, as this suggested analysis does (the Messiah), than this finding must in all theological professionalism carry the greatest creditability of current suggested transliterations.

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In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Bob,

I am glad that you found a translation that fits your theology brother.

It all makes sense now, after reading this translation.

v. 26 After Jesus was crucified,[ the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people;] He destroyed the people.

Then, He strengthened a covenant for 7 years with many, yet in the middle of that 7 years He caused the sacrifice to cease.

Finally, Jesus by the wing of abominations He is making desolate untill that which is determined on the desolate one.


Now that totally makes sense. I wish I would have had this man's translation before, it would have saved me alot of confusion.


Thanks, JLB

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

v. 26 After Jesus was crucified,[ the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people;] He destroyed the people.
Then, He strengthened a covenant for 7 years with many, yet in the middle of that 7 years He caused the sacrifice to cease.

The sentence describing the confirming of the covenant for 7 years appearing after the previous sentence describing the destruction of the city doesn't require that the unfolding of the events follow the same sequence, as you imply.

 

[JLB]

I'm sure my understanding of this version is obscure.

Did I at least get the part right about Him destroying the people?


Thanks, JLB

The sentence describing the confirming of the covenant for 7 years appearing after the previous sentence describing the destruction of the city doesn't require that the unfolding of the events follow the same sequence, as you imply.

Saint,

In your understanding, was Jesus crucified during the 70th week?


Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

There is only one main subject in these verses; it is the Prince, the Messiah, He is the main subject in all three verses. However I understand it's difficult for you to see because you are expecting someone else.

In Yeshua, Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Saint,

In your understanding, was Jesus crucified during the 70th week?


Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

(Dan 9:25 ESV) Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Yes Yeshua was crucified during the 70th week; actually at the middle of the 70th week. He was ordained at the end of the 69th week and His ministry began with the starting of the 70th week; His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, that is why we have only 3 1/2 years remaining, the last half of the week.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob.

(Dan 9:26 ESV) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Sorry quoted the wrong verse. Is there any way to delete a post on this board? I've looked but see no way after it is posted.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm sure my understanding of this version is obscure. Did I at least get the part right about Him destroying the people?

That's the way I read it.

I also agree with Saint that Christ was cutoff in the midst of the 70th week. During that 3.5 year period he personally confirmed the new covenant with Israel. After he (the head of the anointed) was cutoff, his apostles (the body of the anointed) confirmed the new covenant with Israel for the next 3.5 years, which I believe ended at Acts 10:1 when the door for the nations to enter the new covenant was officially opened. I do wonder if this Cornelius in Acts 10:1 wasn't the same centurion whom Jesus marveled at for his faith in Matthew 8:5. That would be fitting. Of course, the cities mentioned are different, but soldiers do move around.

Sorry quoted the wrong verse. Is there any way to delete a post on this board? I've looked but see no way after it is posted.

An Edit button appears in the right lower corner of a post for a period of time after the post is made.

 

[Saint]

That's the way I read it.

I also agree with Saint that Christ was cutoff in the midst of the 70th week. During that 3.5 year period he personally confirmed the new covenant with Israel. After he (the head of the anointed) was cutoff, his apostles (the body of the anointed) confirmed the new covenant with Israel for the next 3.5 years, which I believe ended at Acts 10:1 when the door for the nations to enter the new covenant was officially opened. I do wonder if this Cornelius in Acts 10:1 wasn't the same centurion whom Jesus marveled at for his faith in Matthew 8:5. That would be fitting. Of course, the cities mentioned are different, but soldiers do move around.

Hi HeRoseFromTheDead; I’m not sure about Acts 10:1 but I have given strong consideration for the week ending in Acts 7:60 with the stoning of Stephen and the beginning of the ministry of Paul. Something surely changed at this juncture. Regardless it seems evident that there remains a period of 3 ½ years at the end of this age when there will be great tribulation upon the people so I have to say that I’m unsettled about these things. I guess I could be convinced either way; did the week end or is there a gap. Because I’m unsure I’m taking the position that there is a gap and the last 3 ½ years is still to come.

Thanks for the tip, I’ll be looking for that delete button.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Saint wrote -

Yes Yeshua was crucified during the 70th week; actually at the middle of the 70th week. He was ordained at the end of the 69th week and His ministry began with the starting of the 70th week; His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, that is why we have only 3 1/2 years remaining, the last half of the week.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Daniel 9:26

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Okay, so you believe that Messiah was crucified during the 70th week. How about the temple being destroyed, was it destroyed during the 70th week also?



So that I might understand your perspective.


Thanks, JLB

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Regardless it seems evident that there remains a period of 3 ½ years at the end of this age when there will be great tribulation upon the people so I have to say that I’m unsettled about these things. I guess I could be convinced either way; did the week end or is there a gap. Because I’m unsure I’m taking the position that there is a gap and the last 3 ½ years is still to come.

I think the 70th week ended for natural Israel, but like with a lot of prophecies there seems to be a dual fulfillment of sorts with the future 3.5-year period of witness of supernatural Israel. Just because there is a 3.5-year period of witness at the end of the age of the nations doesn't necessarily mean that it is the same as the latter half of the promised 7-year period of witness to natural Israel.

 

[JLB]

Saint wrote -

Yes Yeshua was crucified during the 70th week; actually at the middle of the 70th week. He was ordained at the end of the 69th week and His ministry began with the starting of the 70th week; His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, that is why we have only 3 1/2 years remaining, the last half of the week.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Daniel 9:26

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Okay, so you believe that Messiah was crucified during the 70th week. How about the temple being destroyed, was it destroyed during the 70th week also?



So that I might understand your perspective.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

Saint wrote -

Yes Yeshua was crucified during the 70th week; actually at the middle of the 70th week. He was ordained at the end of the 69th week and His ministry began with the starting of the 70th week; His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, that is why we have only 3 1/2 years remaining, the last half of the week.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Daniel 9:26

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Okay, so you believe that Messiah was crucified during the 70th week. How about the temple being destroyed, was it destroyed during the 70th week also?



So that I might understand your perspective.


Thanks, JLB

Hi JLB...

No the destruction of the temple fell outside of the last week. As I stated to HeRoseFromTheDead, I could debate the ending of the week with the stoning of Stephen or take the other position that the week was split and the finial 3 ½ years is still future; I tend to lean towards the latter. In either case the finial destruction of the city and temple was outside of the week because either it occurred after the stoning of Stephen or before the finial half of the week if it is still future.

However the point is moot because the temple was made desolate with the crucifixion of Yeshua…"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" refers specifically to the fact that the Yeshua would put a stop to all sacrifice when He voluntarily gave himself as a sacrifice for sin. In verse 27 He gave His life, putting the legal end to the sacrificial system. The sacrifice of God's lamb, the Messiah, occurred three and one-half years after His baptism, bringing the seventy week prophetic clock to the middle of the 70th week. The fact that the nation Israel continued to sacrifice after the death of Christ and until the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 in no way argues against the finality of Christ's sacrifice or that He put an end to sacrifice.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I think the 70th week ended for natural Israel, but like with a lot of prophecies there seems to be a dual fulfillment of sorts with the future 3.5-year period of witness of supernatural Israel. Just because there is a 3.5-year period of witness at the end of the age of the nations doesn't necessarily mean that it is the same as the latter half of the promised 7-year period of witness to natural Israel.

Yes I agree; at times we tend to forget the issue of dual fulfillment in all of these prophecies.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[JLB]

Saint wrote,

However the point is moot because the temple was made desolate with the crucifixion of Yeshua…"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" refers specifically to the fact that the Yeshua would put a stop to all sacrifice when He voluntarily gave himself as a sacrifice for sin. In verse 27 He gave His life, putting the legal end to the sacrificial system. The sacrifice of God's lamb, the Messiah, occurred three and one-half years after His baptism, bringing the seventy week prophetic clock to the middle of the 70th week. The fact that the nation Israel continued to sacrifice after the death of Christ and until the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 in no way argues against the finality of Christ's sacrifice or that He put an end to sacrifice.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob


The problem with your perspective is:

- The temple was not desolated with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

- The sacrifices did not stop untill the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

- The 69 th week ended on Palm sunday, after that 5 days later on the Passover He was crucified.

How could He be involved in the 70th week when He was crucified AFTER the 69th week.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

- The 69 th week ended on Palm sunday, after that 5 days later on the Passover He was crucified.

How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[Saint]

The problem with your perspective is:

- The sacrifices did not stop untill the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

- The 69 th week ended on Palm sunday, after that 5 days later on the Passover He was crucified.

How could He be involved in the 70th week when He was crucified AFTER the 69th week.

JLB I'm sure that there are sacrifices occurring in the name of Yehovah somewhere in the world today but If He does not recognizes them to what avail are they? You see that is the whole point with another temple in this age; what’s the point if Yehovah does not acknowledge any such effort. The veil was torn and at the moment of Yeshua's death and it dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice, the shedding of His own blood, was a sufficient atonement for sins. It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile; an earthly temple was no longer recognized for the atonement of sin.

The Jews can build any kind of structure today but it services no purpose in the eyes of God. The antichrist might as well set in the Dome of the Rock and proclaim himself god for all the spiritual good it will do him.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

The TYPE of desolation from overspreading of abominations which the Daniel Scripture is talking about is not... about a destruction of the temple nor Jerusalem. It's about the setting up of an 'abomination', which per God's Word means an idol.

The latter part of the Dan.9:27 verse is about an idol... desolating the temple, not a physical destruction of the temple like in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)


That's why we cannot try to 'dump' the Daniel Scripture that defines that idol abomination being the desolation which causes... the daily sacrifice and oblation to cease...

Dan 8:9-13
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
(KJV)

You see, the "sanctuary" there in Dan.8:13 is standing, for in Rev.11 we have that same idea of the Gentiles trodding the outer court for a period of 42 months, the same period the dragon reigns per Rev.13.

The desolation there is about a specific "transgression", that being an idol setup inside the temple in the "holy place" which Jesus foretold in Matthew 24. The Romans never... did any of that, because per Josephus the Romans in 70 A.D. tried to capture control of the temple but it burned down before they could capture it. So they did NOT... desolate the temple by that "transgression" Daniel shows which causes the end of the daily sacrifice and oblation.


Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
(KJV)

There's the Dan.9:27 'covenant' that "little horn" "vile person" will make, it's that "league made with him" by a certain small group of people (leaders in Jerusalem).


Dan 11:31-35
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)

And there emphatically, is what the Dan.9:27 desolation by the overspreading of abominations is, the placing of an abomination that makes desolate! THAT's what our Lord Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with the "abomination of desolation", an IDOL abomination that causes the temple to become SPIRITUALLY desolate in false worship.

Notice how that Dan.11:35 verse declares the timing for that event, being for a time appointed at the end (i.e., end of this world).


Dan 12:9-11
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

That's twice the Daniel Scripture has defined... just what causes the end of the daily sacrifice and oblation in connection with temple service. It's the SETTING UP of an abomination that makes the temple desolate, not the literal destruction of the temple.

Obvioulsy, our Jewish brethren who believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah) maybe don't want to think that their other Jewish brethren that still refuse Christ Jesus could fall to such things as building another Israelite temple and bowing to yet another idol abomination setup in a new Israelite temple in Jerusalem.

Yet, that very thing has been... history before in Jerusalem (Antiochus Epiphanes in 165-170 B.C.). But did all the Jews fall to that false worship? NO! That kind of thing raised the faithful among them instead to rebellion, to get rid of those historical idol abominations.

Christ Jesus will destroy that idol abomination setup there for the end at His return. We won't.

What we as Christians, along with our Jewish brethren in Christ Jesus must do, is not... fall into worship of the coming false messiah who is going to be represented by that idol abomination, the "image of the beast" of Revelation 13.

The faithful orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today that have been preparing materials, and the people, for the building of another temple in Jerusalem are thinking to prepare for the True Messiah's return. They don't know God is sending a false messiah first, and in the role of Messiah. But IF... they would only listen to Him through His Son Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah), then they too would understand that.

It is bad also that many Christian brethren are not aware of that coming working in Jerusalem, and the SAME kind of false prophets among faithful yet deceived orthodox Jews are performing an equal deception upon deceived Christian brethren that will fall to bow in worship to that coming first false messiah.

So whether a Jewish believer on Yeshua Messiah, or a Christian believer on Jesus Christ, we are all equally in that same boat of warning to not fall in worship of that coming false messiah, the one Christ Messiah will destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

[JLB]

JLB I'm sure that there are sacrifices occurring in the name of Yehovah somewhere in the world today but If He does not recognizes them to what avail are they? You see that is the whole point with another temple in this age; what’s the point if Yehovah does not acknowledge any such effort. The veil was torn and at the moment of Yeshua's death and it dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice, the shedding of His own blood, was a sufficient atonement for sins. It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile; an earthly temple was no longer recognized for the atonement of sin.

The Jews can build any kind of structure today but it services no purpose in the eyes of God. The antichrist might as well set in the Dome of the Rock and proclaim himself god for all the spiritual good it will do him.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Bob wrote -

The veil was torn and at the moment of Yeshua's death and it dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice ...

Bob,

The word's of this prophecy we are discussing are real. The events that this prophecy predicts are real.

You and I know what The Lord's sacrifice for our sins accomplished, however we don't get to just symbolize away the events nor the time frame.

We don't get to just ignore what the scriptures and the time frame are teaching us from this prophecy.

Please notice in verse 26 - "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


We would be foolish to ignore what The Holy Spirit is trying to teach us in this verse by saying " The phrase "And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" is irrelevant because the phrase "Messiah shall be cut off" made it irrelevant, because "since Jesus was crucified the temple or the time period it was destroyed is no longer relevant to our study or our understanding"

Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. That doesn't make the Passover irrelevant or tabernacle or the temple Soloman built. They are all relevant to our study and our understanding.

And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

In one breath, in one sentence involves a 40 year span of time.That tells me that these two events are not part of the 70th week.


Thanks, JLB

 

[Saint]

Veteran the desecration of the temple in Dan 8 is that committed by Antiochus, can we agree on this? At the time of this action the desecration still had real meaning and was a terrible affront to the Hebrews as well as God the Father.

I guess you don’t buy my argument that YHWH has put aside an earthly temple in His name, but Yeshua is now our high priest setting at the right hand of the Father and as He said… "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book'" (Heb 10:5-7 ESV); and that the only place that a new earthly temple has any significance is in Orthodox Judaism. Remember the words of Yeshua in Mat 23:38 when He told them their house was left unto you desolate; meaning it was deserted of its Divine inhabitant and they would not see Him again until they confessed who He was.

Regarding the fact that Orthodox Judaism will be able to believe in a false messiah is a tragedy because the messiah that they expect will be an earthly person, not a Divine Son of God. All they expect is someone from the line of David who will again lead them to greatness.

I see and appreciate where you brothers are coming from because the position you hold is one that I myself understood but no longer. It could be you are correct in your understanding, I don’t think so but time will tell. One thing I do know is that we will all be surprised in the finial outcome because none of us can see the complete truth. I modify my position as I learn and fully expect that what I think today will reshape itself as I grow.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

One other point for consideration; how can something be made desolate which has already be declared desolate until the return of Yeshua (Mat 23:38)?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob