The Rapture is Post-trib

[Gottservant]

God is able to save pre mid and post tribulation?

 

[The Light]

The only passage about the rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

So, you think the Lord Himself descending from heaven is the same as the Lord sending His angels?

When the Lord Himself comes He will come for the Church, the first bride. When the Lord sends His angels it is the gathering from heaven and earth. The second bride is gathered from the earth. These are the great multitude of the marriage supper.

Yes, there is a gathering after the tribulation and there is coming when you think not. And there is a coming after wrath. Tribulation and wrath are not the same event.

 

[The Light]

There is a question pre-tribs need to answer.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Who are these that "God will bring with Jesus" when He comes to gather His people to Himself? It says they are "those who have fallen asleep in him". Who else can this be except for the souls of the dead in Christ?

The living will not precede the dead. The Lord will come and the dead in Christ will rise first. This is the barley harvest, spring Passover harvest.

Then the Lord Himself will return for the alive that remained. He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. When He comes for the alive that remained, this is the end of summer wheat harvest. Pentecost, at the Feast of New Wine, which is the harvest celebration.

So the Lord comes first for the dead and returns for the alive that remained fulfilling the spring and summer GRAIN harvest.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Pre-tribs like to say that Jesus will first come FOR His saints in a pre-trib rapture and then He later will come WITH His saints after the tribulation. But scripture says He will come both WITH and FOR His people at the same time. And that is indicated in this passage as well:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that the elect are gathered both from throughout heaven AND from throughout the earth at Christ's coming AFTER the tribulation. The ones gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ and those gathered from earth are those who are alive and remain. The dead in Christ will be united with their changed, immortal bodies and they will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

Jesus does come with and for His people IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation. This is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is already in heaven, See Revelation 5. The angels gather the Church from heaven and then gather the seed of the woman, Israel from the earth. This is the fall FRUIT harvest, Feast of Trumpets, last trump. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes across the earth, as they are first fruits of the second harvest. All return to the marriage supper, as this is the great multitude.

Only those in the Nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. Jesus then returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven to set up His kingdom.

 

[Davy]

God is able to save pre mid and post tribulation?

God is NOT able to save pre trib nor mid trib, simply because Jesus revealed His coming is AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. So quit trying to re-write The Word of God.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm personally uncertain about the timing of the Rapture, i.e., pre, mid, post. However, the recent mainstream interest in the once-scoffed-at UFO's and aliens theory gives credence to a pre-tribulation Rapture-explanation.

God does not want you uninformed and/or confused on the Timing of the Rapture.

Just believe what JESUS and the Apostles and the OT Prophets all AGREE on = Post-Trib Return of MESSIAH

There has never been, nor ever will be, a pre-trib rapture verse found in scripture.

 

[Jericho]

What exactally is the purpose of a post-trib rapture? To go up and come back down? And who will be left to rapture? The Anti-Christ overcomes the saints and kills them. One big problem with the post-trib rapture is Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only,” (Mat 24:36). If you are still on earth to witness the abomination of desolation (Dan 12:11) and the two witnesses killed (Rev 11:13), you could calculate with certainty when the Second Coming and subsequent post-trib rapture would occur.

 

[ewq1938]

So, you think the Lord Himself descending from heaven is the same as the Lord sending His angels?

Obviously.

Yes, there is a gathering after the tribulation and there is coming when you think not.

Same time. The ones who are surprised by that same coming were not watching and likely committed Apostasy.

And there is a coming after wrath. Tribulation and wrath are not the same event.

No, the coming is before wrath, after the GT has ended. That is where the bible places the rapture. That has been proven. Any other version of a rapture is Apostasy/apostasia the Departure.

 

[ewq1938]

So the Lord comes first for the dead

The Church is already in heaven, See Revelation 5.

lol....there is no reason to come for them if they are already in heaven. He only comes for the living survivors of the Church after the end of the GT. One second coming and one rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

What exactally is the purpose of a post-trib rapture?

The living survivors are all over the world when the GT ends. God wants them to be all together so they will be raptured from where ever they are to one place in the clouds to meet Christ and the resurrected saints. This forms one great army which follows Christ down to Armageddon.

 

[The Light]

No, the coming is before wrath, after the GT has ended. That is where the bible places the rapture. That has been proven. Any other version of a rapture is Apostasy/apostasia the Departure.

So you don't think He comes at the end of wrath?

Or do you think He comes at the end of the tribulation and stay on earth during all the wrath of God?

 

[The Light]

lol....there is no reason to come for them if they are already in heaven. He only comes for the living survivors of the Church after the end of the GT. One second coming and one rapture.

Matthew 24
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Wherever the Lord is, so will we be. The Lord comes for the dead in Christ first. When He returns for the alive believers that remain, He brings the dead with Him.

So it is when He comes for the rapture at the 6th seal, the second harvest. The Church will be gathered from heaven to be with the Lord, Then all return to heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[PinSeeker]

God is NOT able to save pre trib nor mid trib, simply because Jesus revealed His coming is AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. So quit trying to re-write The Word of God.

God is able to save any time... with God all things are possible, remember... but there will be no more saving after the tribulation, because the fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought in, and then the partial hardening that is now on Israel will have been removed, and thus all of His elect ~ all Israel ~ will have been saved.

My goodness.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[David in NJ]

What exactally is the purpose of a post-trib rapture? To go up and come back down? And who will be left to rapture? The Anti-Christ overcomes the saints and kills them. One big problem with the post-trib rapture is Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only,” (Mat 24:36). If you are still on earth to witness the abomination of desolation (Dan 12:11) and the two witnesses killed (Rev 11:13), you could calculate with certainty when the Second Coming and subsequent post-trib rapture would occur.

No one will be able to calculate the day or hour of His second Coming in Post-Trib.

For the simple fact that you need an EXACT starting time, which will not be given.

Only the Father knows the EXACT Time of the revealing of the wicked one and add to that that the LORD will shorten the days.

Pre-trib is FALSE/LIE because it never came out of the Mouth of God = there is not even one pre-trib rapture verse in the entire Scriptures.

 

[07-07-07]

God does not want you uninformed and/or confused on the Timing of the Rapture.

Just believe what JESUS and the Apostles and the OT Prophets all AGREE on = Post-Trib Return of MESSIAH

There has never been, nor ever will be, a pre-trib rapture verse found in scripture.

Pre-tribulation Rapture believers are just as adamant as you are.

 

[The Light]

No one will be able to calculate the day or hour of His second Coming in Post-Trib.

For the simple fact that you need an EXACT starting time, which will not be given.

Apparently you don't know that the final week begins when the covenant is confirmed.

Only the Father knows the EXACT Time of the revealing of the wicked one

Why are you looking for the wicked one when you should be looking for the Messiah.?

and add to that that the LORD will shorten the days.

The days of the Great Tribulation are shortened. The Church is raptured before the tribulation.
Your confusion seems to be growing. May I suggest some early sleep, followed by an early rise and ask the Lord to give you wisdom.

Pre-trib is FALSE/LIE because it never came out of the Mouth of God = there is not even one pre-trib rapture verse in the entire Scriptures.

Here is one of the verses that you seem unable to find.

Our Lord says that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF Man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are watching for the Antichrist when you should be watching for Jesus as instructed. Time runs short.

 

[David in NJ]

Apparently you don't know that the final week begins when the covenant is confirmed.

Why are you looking for the wicked one when you should be looking for the Messiah.?


The days of the Great Tribulation are shortened. The Church is raptured before the tribulation.
Your confusion seems to be growing. May I suggest some early sleep, followed by an early rise and ask the Lord to give you wisdom.


Here is one of the verses that you seem unable to find.

Our Lord says that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF Man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are watching for the Antichrist when you should be watching for Jesus as instructed. Time runs short.

You are using false premises

 

[David in NJ]

Pre-tribulation Rapture believers are just as adamant as you are.

YES, however the BIG difference is that they have ZERO scripture that claims pre-trib.

 

[ewq1938]

Matthew 24
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Wherever the Lord is, so will we be. The Lord comes for the dead in Christ first.

No, he doesn't because they are already with him in heaven right now. Christ brings them with him to meet the living who are the only ones to be raptured.

When He returns for the alive believers that remain, He brings the dead with Him.

Two second comings is unscriptural.

So it is when He comes for the rapture at the 6th seal, the second harvest. The Church will be gathered from heaven to be with the Lord, Then all return to heaven for the marriage supper.

None of this is correct. There is one harvest of the saints, not two. There is one second coming, not two. The seals are not action. That is not when Christ returns.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Do we debate the two views, pre and post trib rapture, in an effort to change minds to our way of thinking?

I think I'll just wait and see. God knows what she's doing.

Did I say she? Oops.

 

[ewq1938]

You are watching for the Antichrist when you should be watching for Jesus as instructed. Time runs short.

We are supposed to be watching for both, and all the signs of the end times Christ spoke of. The AC comes first, so if one is not watching for him they will be deceived by him.

False doctrines always teach that the AC doesn't need to be watched for. That's Pre-trib, all forms of Preterism, and Amill. Only post-trib Pre-mil is watching for him.


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


If you are not watching for the man of sin to arrive before Christ does, you are not obeying what the passage is teaching. You might fall prey to this deception:


2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This could happen to those not watching for the AC:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.