The Rapture is Post-trib

[The Light]

Europe. President of France to be exact.

But, Jesus gave the parable in terms of a Jewish wedding. When you get a chance, study the rituals of a Jewish man marrying a virgin.

I already have. Some of the things off the top of my head is that the bridegroom must pay a price. He then goes to his fathers house to prepare a place. The father tells him when it's time to go. The bridegroom comes for the bride and takes her home. The bridegroom does not go to war for 1 year after the marriage. Now you got me wanting to go take a look.

 

[ewq1938]

And you let this choice of words override what written.

No. The words I quoted were from the bible. The choice of words that contradicts the bible were your words.

The Light: "Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No."
The 6th seal: "For the great day of his wrath is come."

 

[07-07-07]

I already have. Some of the things off the top of my head is that the bridegroom must pay a price. He then goes to his fathers house to prepare a place. The father tells him when it's time to go. The bridegroom comes for the bride and takes her home. The bridegroom does not go to war for 1 year after the marriage. Now you got me wanting to go take a look.

Nice. Do you think the 10 virgins are 10 Brides or 10 Bridesmaids?

 

[The Light]

Nice. Do you think the 10 virgins are 10 Brides or 10 Bridesmaids?

I thought the 5 wise were brides. Never thought in those terms about the foolish.

 

[The Light]

No. The words I quoted were from the bible. The choice of words that contradicts the bible were your words.

The Light: "Has wrath happened at the 6th seal? No."
The 6th seal: "For the great day of his wrath is come."

It's like going at a stadium and seeing the two football teams come out of the tunnel and saying it's game time. But the game will not start until the ball is kicked off, just as wrath will not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds.

 

[ewq1938]

I thought the 5 wise were brides. Never thought in those terms about the foolish.

They are all equal at first so all were brides. The foolish represent Christians that fall away in Apostasy. The going out to buy from those that sell in the middle of the night represents the MOB during the trib.

 

[ewq1938]

It's like going at a stadium and seeing the two football teams come out of the tunnel and saying it's game time. But the game will not start until the ball is kicked off, just as wrath will not start until the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds.

So you think the 6th and 7th seals are opened the same day? I bet you don't so this analogy will not apply at all.

The fact is the events of the 6th seal are the day of wrath but the 7th trump is also the day of wrath. There isn't two days where the wrath of God starts. Both sepeak of the same day. One is prophecy, seeing ahead what will happen on the day of the 7th trump. You are misinterpreting the 6th seal.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, that didn't answer the question, as your response is devoid of explaining it through the lens of the customs of a Jewish wedding. Remember, Jesus was dealing with the house of Israel, not the Gentiles, during His time in the flesh.

God is not racist:

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy three times. He was not speaking of only one ethnic nation.
​

How on earth do you think Abraham was going to become the father of a multitude of nations if he never even had a son (Isaac)? And if his son never even had a son (Jacob - the father of twelve tribes of Israel)?

Who is the house of Israel mentioned below?:

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 9
25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

The above prophecy in Hosea 1 is talking about the house of Israel and Paul is including the Gentiles in its fulfillment.

The house of Israel - the ten Northern tribes - are collectively called Ephraim in prophetic scripture. Jacob told Joseph on his deathbed that the fullness of the Gentiles are in the seed of Ephraim. They were exiled in 725 B.C and have been scattered among the nations ever since, and their descendants intermarried with Gentiles to the point where today you cannot find them.

Abraham's seed (God's elect) is Jesus only together with all those who are in Him through faith in Him - both Jew and Gentile and in Christ, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile (In Gal 3:28 Paul did not say there is both Jew and Gentile in Christ in Galatians 3:28) - and just to make sure you don't misunderstand, he stated it even more plainly in Colossians 3:11:

Colossians 3
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things in all.

"The lost sheep of the house of Israel is not speaking only of the Jews. You've ignored what it says in the rest of the chapter - so now go and read the rest of the chapter:

Matthew 10
18 And all of you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

22 And all of you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

If they were sent only to the Jews in Judah, then it would not be a testimony against the Gentiles.

The entire chapter consists of instructions and warnings for Jesus' apostles regarding their later world-wide mission. It's not only localized.

God is not racist. He does not share your obsession with one particular ethnic nation (which is idolatrous). For the last 2,000 years, Jews and Gentiles (i.e all Israel) are being saved through Christ, who came out of Zion:

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

The deliverer came out of Zion 2,000 years ago.

The Olive tree is the Olive tree of those who are in Christ. It is Christ's Olive tree and has become OUR Olive tree - Gentiles who believe in Jesus have already been grafted into it through their faith in Christ, and those natural descendants of Jacob who are broken off through their unbelief will be grafted in again, IF they repent of their unbelief (only IF they repent of their unbelief):

23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

God is not racist. These are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:-

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy three times. He was not speaking of only one ethnic nation.

It's time for you to base all your theology on the truth that there is only one chosen nation - and it consists only of those who are in Christ, and is from among all nations, including the tribe of Judah (the Jews), because until now, all your theology and the basis of everything you say is that God's chosen nation is "the Jews".

The Jews are only one of twelve tribes, and the fullness of the Gentiles is in the seed of Ephraim, the seed of Abraham - Jesus is the anti-type of Joseph, the father of Ephraim, who was born to a Gentile woman in Egypt, and Jesus is also the seed of Judah ("the Jews"). Salvation is of the Jews because it is of Jesus, the Son of God.​

 

[Zao is life]

Five wise virgins know and believe = "Every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God = WISE = Check

Five wise virgins believe the OT Prophet(s) = Daniel chapter 9 and chapter 12
OT Prophet Daniel says Antichrist BEFORE the ROCK/MESSIAH Returns = WISE = Check

Five wise virgins KNOW the AC comes BEFORE CHRIST = Matt ch24 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 = WISE = Check

 

[Davy]

You have to lie about others to make your point. Doesn't that mean anything to you??

Yes, I completely agree, the best, the only valid approach is truth and honesty. And you lie and denigrate and refuse to address the passages of Scripture I've shared with you.

I pray that God will open your eyes to these things.

Much love!

And just what... things would those be? Things that men say of their own mind, or things that God declares in His Word?

 

[Davy]

You are lying about others. Jericho isn't calling anyone a liar, but you are lying about him.

And you don't seem to care in the slightest . . .

Much love!

I haven't been in a conversation with Jericho, or you here in this thread. So what's all your claimed lies about?

Are you denying the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Lord Jesus declaring His coming there as Post-trib? If so, why are you denying what Jesus said there?

 

[Davy]

Well, that didn't answer the question, as your response is devoid of explaining it through the lens of the customs of a Jewish wedding. Remember, Jesus was dealing with the house of Israel, not the Gentiles, during His time in the flesh.

Jesus was actually dealing with the "house of Judah" at His 1st coming. The "house of Israel" (ten northern tribes) weren't even there in the holy land at Jesus' 1st coming. The ten tribes had been removed even about 120 years prior to the "house of Judah" going into 70 years captivity to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[07-07-07]

Jesus was actually dealing with the "house of Judah" at His 1st coming. The "house of Israel" (ten northern tribes) weren't even there in the holy land at Jesus' 1st coming. The ten tribes had been removed even about 120 years prior to the "house of Judah" going into 70 years captivity to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar.

Matthew 15
[24] But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Matthew 15
[24] But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The ABC's of Eternal TRUTH = Gospel of John

He/JESUS was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own/Jews, and His own/Jews did not receive Him.

But(However/Stop HERE and THINK) = as many/all nations as received Him, to them/all nations He gave the right to become sons of God,
to those/all nations who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Are you able to discern that which is temporary for that which is Eternal?

 

[The Light]

The fact is the events of the 6th seal are the day of wrath

The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

but the 7th trump is also the day of wrath.

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. In other words, Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

There isn't two days where the wrath of God starts.

I know.

Both sepeak of the same day. One is prophecy, seeing ahead what will happen on the day of the 7th trump. You are misinterpreting the 6th seal.

Here is what happens at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[No Pre-TB]

2 Timothy 4
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; AND.

I'm pretty you know what and means. Which further proves my point.

No, it really doesnt. Obviously, you don't understand how Greek works. So, I will post this for your edification.

The older authorities here—instead of the preposition “at”—read “and.” The rendering then would be: “I charge thee in the sight of God and Jesus Christ, who will judge quick and dead (I charge thee) by His appearing (epiphany) and by His kingdom,” the construction in Greek being the usual accusative of adjuration, as in Mark 5:7; Acts 19:13. So, too, Deuteronomy 4:26 (LXX.): “I solemnly charge you to-day by heaven and earth.”

The “kingdom” here spoken of is to commence at Christ’s glorious epiphany or manifestation. Titus expands on this thought and declares "our blessed hope and glorious appearing" which is the 2nd advent in his Kingdom. There is only 1 appearing (epiphany) and it is tied to the Kingdom.

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

His appearing is tied to the crown we receive. And his appearing is tied to the Kingdom. His appearing is also tied to come after the Antichrist is revealed per 2 Thess 2:8

Benson: at his appearing and his kingdom — That is, at his coming, when he shall most manifestly exercise his kingly and judicial power in the sight of all intelligent beings.

Jamieson: and his kingdom—to be set at His appearing, when we hope to reign with Him. At his appearing and his kingdom; when he shall appear the second time, and set up his kingdom of glory,

Gill: at his appearing, and his kingdom; which may be considered as an hendyadis, expressive of one and the same thing; and so the Syriac version renders it, "at the revelation of his kingdom"

However, His appearing occurs at the 6th seal

Nope. His sign appears, just as Matthew 24 says. The sign of the son of man will appear.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

It does not say his coming, appearing, epiphany at all in the Greek. Those words describe his coming. That is why I said to do a word search on some of those things in the 6th seal, but I see you did not.

FACT, Jesus appears at the 6th seal

No, his sign appears. That is the only fact. That is what scripture says.

Not the sound of the great trumpet, mentioned in the following verse; nor the clouds of heaven in this; nor the sign of the cross appearing in the air, as it is said to do in the times of Constantine: not the former; for though to blow a trumpet is sometimes to give a sign, and is an alarm; and the feast which the Jews call the day of blowing the trumpets, Numbers 29:1 is, by the Septuagint, rendered , "the day of signification"; yet this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet: much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak; and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it:

I really wish you would start reading what the word says instead of what you have been told. The Lord comes for the Church, pretrib secret rapture.

There is no secret Pre-TB rapture. The rapture is barely mentioned in the Bible. Barely! The main scope was the resurrection of the dead but you and Pre-Tbs put rapture on a pedestal over the resurrection that is taught all over.

Secret right? Yet Paul tells us pre-requistes that must happen before Christ comes.
Secret right? Yet Christ tells us pre-requisites in Matthew 24.
Secret right? Only for those blind to the truth.
Secret right? So secret, Paul told the Thessalonians otherwise. So secret what does Isaiah 25 say? So secret, what did Job say? It goes in one of your ears and out the other.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Sorry. No secret rapture in Ch. 4 or 5. No rapture in the 6th seal. Job says nope! And since you like to make font's big for some reason, here you go.

Let that anti Pre-TB text sink in.

 

[David in NJ]

No, it really doesnt. Obviously, you don't understand how Greek works. So, I will post this for your edification.

The older authorities here—instead of the preposition “at”—read “and.” The rendering then would be: “I charge thee in the sight of God and Jesus Christ, who will judge quick and dead (I charge thee) by His appearing (epiphany) and by His kingdom,” the construction in Greek being the usual accusative of adjuration, as in Mark 5:7; Acts 19:13. So, too, Deuteronomy 4:26 (LXX.): “I solemnly charge you to-day by heaven and earth.”

The “kingdom” here spoken of is to commence at Christ’s glorious epiphany or manifestation. Titus expands on this thought and declares "our blessed hope and glorious appearing" which is the 2nd advent in his Kingdom. There is only 1 appearing (epiphany) and it is tied to the Kingdom.

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

His appearing is tied to the crown we receive. And his appearing is tied to the Kingdom. His appearing is also tied to come after the Antichrist is revealed per 2 Thess 2:8

Benson: at his appearing and his kingdom — That is, at his coming, when he shall most manifestly exercise his kingly and judicial power in the sight of all intelligent beings.

Jamieson: and his kingdom—to be set at His appearing, when we hope to reign with Him. At his appearing and his kingdom; when he shall appear the second time, and set up his kingdom of glory,

Gill: at his appearing, and his kingdom; which may be considered as an hendyadis, expressive of one and the same thing; and so the Syriac version renders it, "at the revelation of his kingdom"


Nope. His sign appears, just as Matthew 24 says. The sign of the son of man will appear.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

It does not say his coming, appearing, epiphany at all in the Greek. Those words describe his coming. That is why I said to do a word search on some of those things in the 6th seal, but I see you did not.

No, his sign appears. That is the only fact. That is what scripture says.

Not the sound of the great trumpet, mentioned in the following verse; nor the clouds of heaven in this; nor the sign of the cross appearing in the air, as it is said to do in the times of Constantine: not the former; for though to blow a trumpet is sometimes to give a sign, and is an alarm; and the feast which the Jews call the day of blowing the trumpets, Numbers 29:1 is, by the Septuagint, rendered , "the day of signification"; yet this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet: much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak; and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it:


There is no secret Pre-TB rapture. The rapture is barely mentioned in the Bible. Barely! The main scope was the resurrection of the dead but you and Pre-Tbs put rapture on a pedestal over the resurrection that is taught all over.

Secret right? Yet Paul tells us pre-requistes that must happen before Christ comes.
Secret right? Yet Christ tells us pre-requisites in Matthew 24.
Secret right? Only for those blind to the truth.
Secret right? So secret, Paul told the Thessalonians otherwise. So secret what does Isaiah 25 say? So secret, what did Job say? It goes in one of your ears and out the other.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Sorry. No secret rapture in Ch. 4 or 5. No rapture in the 6th seal. Job says nope! And since you like to make font's big for some reason, here you go.

Let that anti Pre-TB text sink in.

Little children can understand.

@The Light and others are desperate and will do anything to try and produce a single 'pre-trib' rapture verse.

When we form an image of pre-trib rapture in our minds/hearts it blocks our view of TRUTH.

The image then comes alive and dictates the supposed 'understanding' whereby any scripture that opposes it must be avoided or altered.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 15
[24] But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That's right, and when He said that, the ten-tribe "house of Israel" was not even there in the holy land. The majority of the ten northern tribes of Israel had already been removed by the kings of Assyria by the time of Jesus' 1st coming.

And if you'll read your Bible, the JEWS of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea REJECTED Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. And thus The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, which of course included the LOST TEN TRIBES that were scattered among the Gentiles as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The serious Bible believer should know about this, having studied the Old Testament Books along with the New Testament Books.

After Solomon's day, God split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms:

1. "house of Judah" (only tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi); capital city was Jerusalem and land was the southern holy lands of Judea. This kingdom was called the "kingdom of Judah".

2. "house of Israel" (only the ten northern tribes of Israel); capital city was Samaria in the northern lands. This kingdom was called the "kingdom of Israel". Before God did this split of 1 Kings 11 forward, the title of "house of Israel" applied to ALL 12 tribes of Israel. But not after the split.


So when Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel", He was specifically pointing to the scattered TEN TRIBES ONLY that were scattered among the Gentiles and lost their identity and heritage of being from Israel.

This is an important point, because the JEWS of the "house of Judah" never... lost their identity nor heritage as part of Israel. And thus the JEWS have never been 'lost sheep' like the ten tribes have been.

 

[ewq1938]

The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

It only describes the coming. The coming does not happen then.

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. In other words, Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

The bible states clearly the wrath begins at the 7th trump not ends there. That will always be an automatically provided evidence that you are not even bothering to go by what the passage even says. We should NEVER choose our beliefs over what scripture says. That really is rule number one in bible study and learning.

Here is what happens at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

None of that happens "at the 6th seal". It is partially described in the 6th seal, but happens at the 7th trump.

 

[David in NJ]

It only describes the coming. The coming does not happen then.





The bible states clearly the wrath begins at the 7th trump not ends there. That will always be an automatically provided evidence that you are not even bothering to go by what the passage even says. We should NEVER choose our beliefs over what scripture says. That really is rule number one in bible study and learning.







None of that happens "at the 6th seal". It is partially described in the 6th seal, but happens at the 7th trump.

EVERYONE, apply this protective covering over your heart/mind/soul and strength:

"We should NEVER choose our beliefs over what God says in His word/Holy Scriptures = The Number ONE Rule in bible study and learning."

Special 'shout out' of thanks to @ewq1938 for posting this.