The Rapture is Post-trib

[The Light]

His appearing is tied to the crown we receive.

So you're saying you are pre trib? I conclude because here are 24 elders in heaven with crowns before the seals are opened. So you must be pretrib.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How come your name is No Pre-TB if you just proved pre trib?

And his appearing is tied to the Kingdom. His appearing is also tied to come after the Antichrist is revealed per 2 Thess 2:8

Benson: at his appearing and his kingdom — That is, at his coming, when he shall most manifestly exercise his kingly and judicial power in the sight of all intelligent beings.

Jamieson: and his kingdom—to be set at His appearing, when we hope to reign with Him. At his appearing and his kingdom; when he shall appear the second time, and set up his kingdom of glory,

Gill: at his appearing, and his kingdom; which may be considered as an hendyadis, expressive of one and the same thing; and so the Syriac version renders it, "at the revelation of his kingdom"

You seem confused and find the need to listen to other men. Why not just read what the word says.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We see this coming in Matthew 24. No kingdom is being set up. WRATH HAS YET TO BEGIN. The kingdom is not set up until wrath ends.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the Lords appearing at the second coming has nothing to do with Him placing His feet on the Mount of Olives (the second advent) when the kingdom is set up.

Nope. His sign appears, just as Matthew 24 says. The sign of the son of man will appear.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

sémeion: a sign
Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sémeion
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)
Definition: a sign
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

It does not say his coming, appearing, epiphany at all in the Greek. Those words describe his coming. That is why I said to do a word search on some of those things in the 6th seal, but I see you did not.

No, his sign appears. That is the only fact. That is what scripture says.

What are you talking about? When the sign appears, Jesus appears.
Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is no secret Pre-TB rapture. The rapture is barely mentioned in the Bible. Barely! The main scope was the resurrection of the dead but you and Pre-Tbs put rapture on a pedestal over the resurrection that is taught all over.

You expect a precise time frame and this goes right over your head.

Matthew 4
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Secret right? Yet Paul tells us pre-requistes that must happen before Christ comes.
Secret right? Yet Christ tells us pre-requisites in Matthew 24.
Secret right? Only for those blind to the truth.
Secret right? So secret, Paul told the Thessalonians otherwise. So secret what does Isaiah 25 say? So secret, what did Job say? It goes in one of your ears and out the other.

List out the argument you have, and I will be happy to use scripture to show why you do not understand.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Does it say every man lieth down until the heavens be no more. Many people have been raised from the dead which seems to disprove your incorrect logic.

Sorry. No secret rapture in Ch. 4 or 5.

I missed the proof. Or was it that man lieth down till the heavens be no more. That will certainly be Jobs fate, but not all men, as already proven.

No rapture in the 6th seal. Job says nope! And since you like to make font's big for some reason, here you go.

Actually there is a rapture at the 6th seal.

Do you still not understand that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when the elect are gathered from heaven and earth.

Let that anti Pre-TB text sink in.

 

[The Light]

It only describes the coming. The coming does not happen then.

Oh boy. When the seal is opened, the coming of Jesus happens.

The bible states clearly the wrath begins at the 7th trump not ends there. That will always be an automatically provided evidence that you are not even bothering to go by what the passage even says. We should NEVER choose our beliefs over what scripture says. That really is rule number one in bible study and learning.

Ok. Explain why wrath happens AFTER Jesus has set up His kingdom.

You do not understand what you are reading.

None of that happens "at the 6th seal". It is partially described in the 6th seal, but happens at the 7th trump.

IT'S ALL OVER AT THE 7TH TRUMPET. WRATH IS OVER. THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD. IT IS THE TIME OF JUDGEMENT.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh boy. When the seal is opened, the coming of Jesus happens.

Oh boy, no.

Ok. Explain why wrath happens AFTER Jesus has set up His kingdom.

Because the world is full of people who worshiped the beast and need to receive wrath?

You do not understand what you are reading.

No, you are the one who doesn't.

IT'S ALL OVER AT THE 7TH TRUMPET. WRATH IS OVER. THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD. IT IS THE TIME OF JUDGEMENT.

The verse literally say the wrath begins at the 7th trump but you will apparently choose your belief over what the verse says. That's a red flag but you aren't paying attention.

 

[No Pre-TB]

So you're saying you are pre trib? I conclude because here are 24 elders in heaven with crowns before the seals are opened. So you must be pretrib.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

How come your name is No Pre-TB if you just proved pre trib?

Why resort to childish behavior? Once again, you did not read my response. Let me be clear: The time we receive our crown coincides with the epiphany (coming/appearance) of Christ when he becomes King of all Kingdoms. That is at the 7th trumpet and no other time.

You seem confused and find the need to listen to other men. Why not just read what the word says.

I could same the same to you. Where would that get me? Why resort to that type of behavior?
I read and try to obey the word. I search out scriptures and its meaning. I compare scriptural verse context with other scripture. I ponder logical questions and see if scripture agrees or refutes them. I look at how others interpret and see if there is any truth in it; using it as a guide, not something that supersedes the word. In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let everything be established: I post other's thoughts on it with my own for contextual support.

So the Lords appearing at the second coming has nothing to do with Him placing His feet on the Mount of Olives (the second advent) when the kingdom is set up.

This is where you err. Christ descends from heaven to Earth. We both agree on that. While he is descending, we meet him in the air. He continues his descent and we escort him as King over the nations of the world to Earth. Because one text mentions we meet him in the air and another speaks of his touching the ground does not mean they are different events.
Here is a fact, there is no scripture that teaches we go to heaven when he comes for us. There is no scripture that teaches we U-turn from his descension and go to heaven. There is no scripture that teaches we hide in heaven for 7 years. I wish it did exist, but it doesn't. If scripture doesnt exist to support that claim, why do you believe it? No one in the Bible taught it.

What are you talking about? When the sign appears, Jesus appears.

Youre still dancing around it and avoiding the sign.
Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

You expect a precise time frame and this goes right over your head.

Matthew 4
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Be careful not to put words into my mouth. Listen to what I am saying, there are pre-requisites given that must happen before he will ever return. When all those things happen, we will know it is very near. Will it be the next day, 2 days later or a week after all the pre-requisites are complete? No one knows, but it'll be close and that is what was said. The context is really against Pre-TB. You assume when he comes at the 6th seal or others in Ch.4 and he will not resurrect then per Job, Per 2 Tim, Per Isa, per Rev 11 and 19 and per 2 Thessalonians to name a few.

List out the argument you have, and I will be happy to use scripture to show why you do not understand.

An argument full of wind being tossed to and fro.

Does it say every man lieth down until the heavens be no more. Many people have been raised from the dead which seems to disprove your incorrect logic.

Again you err. Do you not know there is a difference between the resurrection of the dead; a resurrection versus a more perfect one? If you read the context of the others versus, Job mentions he will wait for his change after he has died and in his new body he will see God. Man will die and doesnt rise till the heavens are no more, they will not be raised. It refutes a Pre-TB resurrection/rapture at Ch 4 and the 6th seal for the heavens will still exist till the restoration of all things which Christ will then descend from heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

You're so obsessed with chronology that you fail to see what the 6 6 6 and the 7 7 7 of the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl and 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are telling us.

You seem obsessed with numbers, but you don't even do Revelation correctly. There are 4 events with 7 individual items. It is 6666, 5555, 7777, if you are that obsessed.

The book that is sealed is the Lamb's book of life, because the Lamb is the only one worthy to open the book, as His blood was what purchased the Atonement Covenant. The book contains the names of every descendant of Adam and Eve in need of redemption. Only after the book is unsealed, can names be removed.

The 5th Seal is when the church is complete, meeting in the air, and glorified. The restoration is complete. No one in Christ can loose their glorified restoration, but then the church has to wait for the final harvest to be completed during the Trumpets and Thunders. So that is when the rapture happens, because the full restoration only happens once.

 

[David in NJ]

You seem obsessed with numbers, but you don't even do Revelation correctly. There are 4 events with 7 individual items. It is 6666, 5555, 7777, if you are that obsessed.

The book that is sealed is the Lamb's book of life, because the Lamb is the only one worthy to open the book, as His blood was what purchased the Atonement Covenant. The book contains the names of every descendant of Adam and Eve in need of redemption. Only after the book is unsealed, can names be removed.

The 5th Seal is when the church is complete, meeting in the air, and glorified. The restoration is complete. No one in Christ can loose their glorified restoration, but then the church has to wait for the final harvest to be completed during the Trumpets and Thunders. So that is when the rapture happens, because the full restoration only happens once.

5th Seal is as follows:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were,
was completed.

There is no Resurrection or rapture mentioned in the 5th Seal

It is quite evident that the Resurrection/rapture only occurs at His Second Coming which is not included in the 5th Seal.

Furthermore, the 5th Seal, seals the deal and FULLY confirms Matthew ch24 = Post-Trib

 

[Timtofly]

Five wise virgins know and believe = "Every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God

Does this mean the 5 foolish virgins get raptured at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, and the wise ones get left behind to live on the earth, throughout all these events you claim they go through?

The foolish virgins leave Adam's dead flesh in the dust, enjoying heaven and Paradise? The wise ones remain in Adam's dead flesh and wing it for a few years, until everyone is dead?

 

[Timtofly]

This is where you err. Christ descends from heaven to Earth. We both agree on that. While he is descending, we meet him in the air. He continues his descent and we escort him as King over the nations of the world to Earth. Because one text mentions we meet him in the air and another speaks of his touching the ground does not mean they are different events. Here is a fact, there is no scripture that teaches we go to heaven when he comes for us. There is no scripture that teaches we U-turn from his descension and go to heaven. There is no scripture that teaches we hide in heaven for 7 years. I wish it did exist, but it doesn't.

Are you planning on already being in heaven at the Second Coming? Of course the vast majority will meet in the air and do a U turn back to Paradise. That is why John still sees them all in Paradise before that heavenly throne between the 6th and 7th Seal.

The 144k are the only redeemed on the earth at the point of time between the 6th and 7th Seal. They are redeemed the moment they are sealed. They were not part of the church, or they would be part of that innumerable crowd.

Jesus has already landed on the mount of Olives as promised in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, when the 144k are sealed and the church is waiting in Paradise. The 144k are part of those the church is told to wait for in the 5th Seal. No one is interpreting the 5th Seal correctly. What is the only action that happens when the 5th Seal is opened? The answer is the church meets in mid-air and is glorified in the sight of everyone left on the earth. Putting on white robes is the same as mortal putting on immortality. Those on earth put on the same permanent incorruptible physical body as all the rest have on, because they in Paradise have all been changed, that is an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross, and the thief on the Cross was the first resurrected soul in Paradise that no living human could prevent. Just like no living human could have prevented all those who came out of their graves. No one alive preceded that phenomenon. Those alive have to wait for the Second Coming to be changed. Those in Paradise have been changed and always prior to those still alive on the earth. Those on the earth don't do a U-turn back to the earth. They are that innumerable multitude in heaven. They have been serving God in His Temple night and day for over 1993 years. They are doing that as we sit here. They will continue for the Millennium. They stop when the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE, because there is no temple at that point in the NHNE. The great tribulation has been the last 1993 years. The tribulation of those days is that great tribulation of last 1993 years. It will suddenly stop at the 4th Seal when death and sheol appear at a time of war, famine, plague, and wild animals kill 25 percent of humanity. That is the end of that Tribulation.

Then the time of Jacob's Trouble begins. The 144k are sealed to be immune and serve Jesus and go wherever Jesus goes on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church. The 5th and 6th Seal is the thief in the night moment. It is the baptism of fire. The glorification of the church. The mountains won't just change in the ME. The whole earth will have a geological change. The Flood caused division. The Second Coming will bring all earth back together as one, without division. Except the 10 kings and who they represent if Satan is allowed 42 months.

The AoD will not be manifested until the 7th Trumpet. That is when the Atonement Covenant is confirmed with those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh after the final harvest. The 7th Trumpet is when Daniel 9:27 kicks in. They will all go through the winepress of God's wrath. That is the moment wrath is accomplished. Or time will be extended 42 months to let those still in the Lamb's book of life decide to chop their head off. Those with the mark will go through the winepress of God's wrath at Armageddon. That is all there in Revelation.

People just want to change the order or worse yet, think there is only one event either 7 camera angles. The end is Revelation 20 when Satan is bound in the pit:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

The 42 months leading up to the end is the AoD.

The time of Jacob's trouble, the final harvest, is the Trumpets and Thunders.

The 5th and 6th Seal opened is the Second Coming.

The parable of the fig tree is the part fulfilled from Matthew 24. No one will know how the Seals are being opened until after the fact. We are not even told the length of the Seals, nor of most of the events following. One being 5 months. The point is, that no one will know, until it happens and then we will see how God shortened the days. But the 42 months is fixed or not at all. The same 42 months covers the time of the 2 witnesses. Because all the harvest of sheep and wheat are waiting on the sea of glass. The 144k and the Lamb are waiting on heavenly mount Zion. Only the 2 witnesses deliver the Gospel on the earth, during those 42 months.

So please explain why any one is on the earth if John saw the Church in heaven, after the 6th Seal where they have been since the thief with Jesus on the Cross was in Paradise that day?

The 144k are on the earth with the Lamb, up until the throne is handed to Satan, and only if God determines some will be beheaded and postpones the 7th kingdom until the 8th kingdom is accomplished.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

The first 5 kingdoms are ancient history. Stopped at the Reformation. The 6th has a deadly wound. No single kingdom since the Reformation. But Satan heals that wound at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. There is going to be push back from certain people once the baptism of fire has literally decimated life on earth. They know the wrath of God is near. Satan steps up and offers his solution to this coming wrath, the 6th Kingdom. During the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, billions of souls will be cast into the LOF or redeemed to stand on the sea of glass. That is the final harvest.

Then the 7th Trumpet sounds. Jesus is declared the 7th kingdom. The 6th Kingdom is officially over. For 5 months, Satan has had his own army of rebel angels loosed from the pit, and they have even stormed heaven. The 7th Trumpet is when they are forever cast out of heaven. Satan only has less than 8 days before being bound in the pit. But we see:

"and the other is not yet come (the 7th) ; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space (the days of the 7th Trumpet). And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (Satan, himself) , and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The dragon only has 7 heads, but 8 kingdoms happen. The 8th is those last 42 months of AoD. John is giving the chronology of earth's kingdoms in these verses. The dragon from Revelation 12 is explained. The first 4 being Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, and Rome. They were against Israel attempting to prevent the birth of Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

Listen to what I am saying, there are pre-requisites given that must happen before he will ever return.

Continued from previous post:

Same 7 headed beast out of the sea of humanity. And then once again, Jerusalem as the whore riding this 6 nation coalition with Satan as the 8th kingdom. The 6th being defunct. Why? Daniel 2:43-46

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:"


This is interpreted:

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold."

This unseen kingdom is the church, the stone that hit at the time of the ten toes, ie the Reformation. It started small in the first century, but could not be stopped, because it was not a government. It was local believers winning a local harvest all over the earth. The church has held the 6th kingdom in check preventing it to have life. The church is removed, Satan gives it life, by giving humans a government in contrast to the Lamb's final harvest being carried out by the angels. This is backed by 10 prominent humans representing 10 struggling nations, but they were never given any authority:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Satan deceives them into fighting at Armageddon, and promises them each a ten percent section of his empire after Armageddon.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

So we see that these are either destroyed at the 7th Trumpet in the winepress of God's wrath. Or if time is extended 42 months, they are destroyed at Armageddon, also the winepress of God's wrath.

Since John declares Satan as the 8th kingdom, not the 7th kingdom, and only 7 heads, the 7th kingdom can only be the 7th Trumpet's declaration:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

If there is an 8th kingdom, that does not change "forever". The 7th kingdom is placed on hold until Armageddon. That is when all the sheep and wheat and the 144k who make up this kingdom return to start the 7th kingdom, the Day of the Lord, the next 1,000 years while Satan is bound. So the daily sacrifices are taken away, until the time is up. Then the 2 witnesses are killed, the 7 vials poured out, and on a Sunday between 5pm and 6pm the one hour these 10 kings stand in power with Satan, only to be defeated. Then 6pm starts the Millennium. By sunrise if not before, there is a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65. The former things will not be remembered, not even the victory of Armageddon. Satan will be bound, and no one will even remember him. After Satan is released there will be a brand new deception like with Eve in the Garden. Many will listen just like Eve did.

There is the additional group of beheaded who are resurrected to join with the sheep and the wheat. If there is no 42 months, then Satan will still be bound. The rest of Adam's flesh destroyed, and those on the sea of glass will come to earth at the declaration they are now under the kingship of Jesus. We are not told the exact details of that week. Just the declaration of the rest of Revelation 11. Revelation 12 introduces the image of Daniel 2 in the form of a 7 headed dragon. Revelation 13 is the start of those 42 months, if they happen. Revelation 14 is if those 42 months don't happen. Revelation 15 is the sheep and wheat waiting for whatever happens. Revelation 16 is what happens those 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead. Revelation 17 to Revelation 19 is the short history of the 8th kingdom, only if it happens.

If 7 billion people were prepared for a thief in the night moment waiting as wise virgins, the final harvest would go a lot smoother, and most flesh would be saved. God is currently cutting the tribulation short giving those 7 billion an opportunity at redemption. But once the 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals are opened, that is it for the church. No one is guaranteed to be part of the sheep and wheat. No one is guaranteed to have an opportunity to chop their head off. So why do any think they are going to be raptured after those beheaded souls are choosing to loose their heads instead of receiving the mark? The only post tribulation removal is at the end of the church period. And that is the end of the tribulation that started when Peter was thrown into prison and Stephen martyred. Once the church is removed that tribulation is over.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (that tribulation, not the time of Jacob's trouble). And so all Israel shall be saved. (That is the GT, Jacob's trouble) : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The tribulation is the fire that only a remnant of Israel is saved. But all that enter the Millennium will be redeemed and enjoy the promises of Daniel 9:24.

When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, that is the 5th Seal. The church is glorified, and complete. Any one else is stuck on the earth for the Millennium, the Day of the Lord. And no one has a guarantee to be part of this final harvest. The only guarantee is the fulness of the Gentiles. Any one who claims the sheep and wheat, and the 144k are the church will end up being dead wrong. Only 2 people were right and lived to see the day of the first coming as Messiah. Daniel's 69 weeks were up. Not one single disciple had a clue prior to being chosen. None of the "church" leaders had a clue who Jesus even was. Today is not that different. The only thing the church should have been doing since 1948 is:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

In modern lingo that would be called revival. Revival has come and gone many times, because humans grow impatient, without seeing any results. The kingdom is unseen. Technically we were never promised prosperity to the flesh, while living in Adam's dead state. Life is by faith, not by sight. What would be seen would only be burned up at the Second Coming anyways.

 

[Timtofly]

5th Seal is as follows:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were,
was completed.

There is no Resurrection or rapture mentioned in the 5th Seal

It is quite evident that the Resurrection/rapture only occurs at His Second Coming which is not included in the 5th Seal.

Furthermore, the 5th Seal, seals the deal and FULLY confirms Matthew ch24 = Post-Trib

Open your spiritual eyes. The resurrection is of the physical body. Of course there is no resurrection for those in Christ already in Paradise. It is the glorification, the total package: soul, body, and spirit.

Paul is not using a 7 point illustration. Paul is just stating facts. John is using the opening of the Lamb's book of life that has 7 Seals. As each seal is opened the seal of the Holy Spirit is being systematically removed from the earth. Once physical death has happened, the shedding of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, such a seal of the Holy Spirit is no longer necessary. Once the 7th Seal is opened, names will start being removed from the Lamb's book of life. The only action of the 5th Seal is the total restoration of the church. Once a son of God, being sealed is no longer necessary.

You are too hung up on physical death, and enjoying Adam's flesh on earth to see that the 5th Seal only deals with this verse:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We are sons of God via the second birth. We are not sons of God in appearance while in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. John says that total restoration happens and then the 6th Seal is opened. How long is that meeting in the air? Paul declared a twinkling of an eye. You doubt Jesus can open two Seals at the same time? And also instantly be on the earth stopping Jerusalem from being destroyed, while at the same time the entire physical universe is on fire? How do you think the LOF is formed? It alls seems over before you can even read the words on the page.

So why are you limiting God to your own physical eyes and reaction to God's Word? Do you think that perhaps the dead bodies of those raptured (You can't take this body with you) is part of those 2 billion dead mentioned in the 4th Seal? When such a war breaks out that is centered around Jerusalem, which seems to be what happens in the 4th Seal, how long is this twinkling of an eye "salvation of Jerusalem" going to take?

How long do you think this fire will move through heaven and earth burning up all the works of man, and then sticking around as a LOF? It obviously would take longer looking up every single verse in Scripture on the topic and reading them outloud. We have the picture in our mind, yet then think it all cannot happen in an instant? It is not like humans are going to sit and roast in an hour long baptism of fire. Or a day of a physical fire burning parts of California or now the experience in Hawaii. Those are all physical fires. We are talking about God's will acting in an instant as if a physical fire had happened. The Flood lasted for days. The baptism of fire happens in a twinkling of an eye per Paul. People are not burned up, their works are burned up. Their cities destroyed. They are hiding under rocks. How does one hide under rocks? Ever heard of survivors dug out after an earthquake?

It would be more of a miracle if everything was left in tack after every mountain range and continent has been moved out of their current locations. Of course people are going to be digging out of caves and rubble. Wishing they had physically died instead of facing God's wrath and the Lamb's judgment.

Do you not take God at His Word:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

That is describing the 6th Seal. That is not describing the battle of Armageddon at least 42 months later. Armageddon is after Satan's miraculous capitalistic renewal of his deceptive empire. It is all about making money for someone after God took it all away. God doesn't need Satan's economy nor economic recovery. This is the removal of souls out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not giving humans a means of living.

So yes, the 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals go in lock step with each other. It is the point where Jesus' feet land on the mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. Obviously even current Jerusalem will get a physical makeover like all the rest of creation and all at the same time. Jesus will sit on His throne in Jerusalem at that point. There will not be a baptism of fire, later, which would then destroy what Jesus just put into place.

Jesus warned against the offerings of every other false Christ. Jesus never ruled out His own presence on earth. Many seem to misquote Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

He is going to be here and sitting on a throne. And the church is not mentioned as being around at all. So when is the post second coming event you call the rapture going to happen after Jesus is sitting on the throne in a Temple in Jerusalem? Paul seems to indicate it was on the way down, but that twinkling of an eye event seems to be the biggest tripping point. Kind of hard to live in the nanosecond in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. John never wrote down every single nanosecond of the future. That would have taken several million books and at least 1010 years, since that is about the time range, he covered.

You think some here just fill in too many details outside of Scripture. There are details throughout Scripture if one bothered to look, instead of trying to prove that something cannot happen, when it comes to God who does the impossible.

 

[The Light]

Little children can understand.

@The Light and others are desperate and will do anything to try and produce a single 'pre-trib' rapture verse.

You seem more desperate to deny the facts.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do you pretend this verse is not there and go on about your blindness.

When we form an image of pre-trib rapture in our minds/hearts it blocks our view of TRUTH.

The image then comes alive and dictates the supposed 'understanding' whereby any scripture that opposes it must be avoided or altered.

I challenge you to prove there is no pretrib rapture. I know it cannot be done.

Just so you know in advance, proving Jack and Jill go up the hill, does NOT PROVE the Bill and Betty don't also go up the hill.

 

[David in NJ]

You seem more desperate to deny the facts.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do you pretend this verse is not there and go on about your blindness.

I challenge you to prove there is no pretrib rapture. I know it cannot be done.

Just so you know in advance, proving Jack and Jill go up the hill, does NOT PROVE the Bill and Betty don't also go up the hill.

the LORD Jesus Has proven to everyone that 'pre-trib' is a lie = the wise believe Him

 

[David in NJ]

You seem more desperate to deny the facts.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do you pretend this verse is not there and go on about your blindness.

I challenge you to prove there is no pretrib rapture. I know it cannot be done.

Just so you know in advance, proving Jack and Jill go up the hill, does NOT PROVE the Bill and Betty don't also go up the hill.

Advanced Biblical Wisdom = The overwhelming DIRECT scriptural evidence from Genesis to Revelation speaks of only one Second Coming after the Tribulation:

Always AGREE with the overwhelming and DIRECT evidence of Scripture that needs no man to interpret.

a.) Matthew chaper 24 = JESUS says Post-Trib = "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...."

b.) 1 John 2:18 = Apostle John says Post-Trib = "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

c.) 2 Thess 2:1-4 = Apostle Paul agrees Post-Trib with Apostle John
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

d.) OT Daniel says Post-Trib ch7 =
Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.


JESUS confirms OT Post-Trib Prophecy
Revelation ch13 = And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[The Light]

And if you'll read your Bible, the JEWS of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea REJECTED Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. And thus The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, which of course included the LOST TEN TRIBES that were scattered among the Gentiles as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel."


This is an important point, because the JEWS of the "house of Judah" never... lost their identity nor heritage as part of Israel. And thus the JEWS have never been 'lost sheep' like the ten tribes have been.

This is total baloney.

When Israel was scattered, they do not quit being Israel. They are blind and cannot become the Church. This nonsense is passed down from unbelievers.

 

[The Light]

the LORD Jesus Has proven to everyone that 'pre-trib' is a lie = the wise believe Him

Please. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in before God turns His attention to His Chosen as shown in Romans 11. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel as shown in Daniel 9.

The fact that you are not watching for the soon coming of the Messiah, as instructed by Jesus Himself, is not wise.

 

[The Light]

Advanced Biblical Wisdom = The overwhelming DIRECT scriptural evidence from Genesis to Revelation speaks of only one Second Coming after the Tribulation:

Always AGREE with the overwhelming and DIRECT evidence of Scripture that needs no man to interpret.

a.) Matthew chaper 24 = JESUS says Post-Trib = "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...."

And yet the tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

b.) 1 John 2:18 = Apostle John says Post-Trib = "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."

No man knows the day nor the hour.

c.) 2 Thess 2:1-4 = Apostle Paul agrees Post-Trib with Apostle John
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This verse is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth, that occurs BEFORE the day of Christ. This confirms what I have said. Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before wrath.

d.) OT Daniel says Post-Trib ch7 =
Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

The gathering from heaven and earth, at the 6th seal, is immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God which disproves that this event occurs at the 7th trumpet.

JESUS confirms OT Post-Trib Prophecy
Revelation ch13 = And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is a post trib rapture BEFORE the day of Christ. It is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal and not at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the end of Wrath as proven by Jesus setting up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[The Light]

It only describes the coming. The coming does not happen then.

What in the world are you talking about? When the seal is actually open, the event will happen. When a trumpet is blown by an angel the event will happen. When a vial is poured by an angel the event will happen.

The bible states clearly the wrath begins at the 7th trump not ends there.

The Bible states that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Jesus has set His kingdom on earth.
Revelation 7
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The Bible states it is that the time of judgement.

The Bible also states that when the 7th trumpet begins to sound the mystery of God is finished.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you pretend that scripture means nothing?

You need to start understanding what you are reading.

That will always be an automatically provided evidence that you are not even bothering to go by what the passage even says. We should NEVER choose our beliefs over what scripture says. That really is rule number one in bible study and learning.

See above.

None of that happens "at the 6th seal". It is partially described in the 6th seal, but happens at the 7th trump.

So when the sixth seal is opened, the events of the 6th seal do not occur.

So when the 1st seal is opened does the rider on the white go forth conquering and to conquer? Or is this a 7th trumpet event?
SMH.................Why not go by what the Word says instead of making up nonsense so it fits into a false belief.

 

[David in NJ]

Please. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in before God turns His attention to His Chosen as shown in Romans 11. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel as shown in Daniel 9.

The fact that you are not watching for the soon coming of the Messiah, as instructed by Jesus Himself, is not wise.

Romans chapter 11 confirms Post-Trib

 

[David in NJ]

And yet the tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

No man knows the day nor the hour.


This verse is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth, that occurs BEFORE the day of Christ. This confirms what I have said. Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation and before wrath.



The gathering from heaven and earth, at the 6th seal, is immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God which disproves that this event occurs at the 7th trumpet.

There is a post trib rapture BEFORE the day of Christ. It is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal and not at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the end of Wrath as proven by Jesus setting up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Denying the words of the Apostles and making your own assumptions is what the foolish virgins do!

 

[David in NJ]

Open your spiritual eyes. The resurrection is of the physical body. Of course there is no resurrection for those in Christ already in Paradise. It is the glorification, the total package: soul, body, and spirit.

Paul is not using a 7 point illustration. Paul is just stating facts. John is using the opening of the Lamb's book of life that has 7 Seals. As each seal is opened the seal of the Holy Spirit is being systematically removed from the earth. Once physical death has happened, the shedding of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, such a seal of the Holy Spirit is no longer necessary. Once the 7th Seal is opened, names will start being removed from the Lamb's book of life. The only action of the 5th Seal is the total restoration of the church. Once a son of God, being sealed is no longer necessary.

You are too hung up on physical death, and enjoying Adam's flesh on earth to see that the 5th Seal only deals with this verse:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We are sons of God via the second birth. We are not sons of God in appearance while in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. John says that total restoration happens and then the 6th Seal is opened. How long is that meeting in the air? Paul declared a twinkling of an eye. You doubt Jesus can open two Seals at the same time? And also instantly be on the earth stopping Jerusalem from being destroyed, while at the same time the entire physical universe is on fire? How do you think the LOF is formed? It alls seems over before you can even read the words on the page.

So why are you limiting God to your own physical eyes and reaction to God's Word? Do you think that perhaps the dead bodies of those raptured (You can't take this body with you) is part of those 2 billion dead mentioned in the 4th Seal? When such a war breaks out that is centered around Jerusalem, which seems to be what happens in the 4th Seal, how long is this twinkling of an eye "salvation of Jerusalem" going to take?

How long do you think this fire will move through heaven and earth burning up all the works of man, and then sticking around as a LOF? It obviously would take longer looking up every single verse in Scripture on the topic and reading them outloud. We have the picture in our mind, yet then think it all cannot happen in an instant? It is not like humans are going to sit and roast in an hour long baptism of fire. Or a day of a physical fire burning parts of California or now the experience in Hawaii. Those are all physical fires. We are talking about God's will acting in an instant as if a physical fire had happened. The Flood lasted for days. The baptism of fire happens in a twinkling of an eye per Paul. People are not burned up, their works are burned up. Their cities destroyed. They are hiding under rocks. How does one hide under rocks? Ever heard of survivors dug out after an earthquake?

It would be more of a miracle if everything was left in tack after every mountain range and continent has been moved out of their current locations. Of course people are going to be digging out of caves and rubble. Wishing they had physically died instead of facing God's wrath and the Lamb's judgment.

Do you not take God at His Word:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

That is describing the 6th Seal. That is not describing the battle of Armageddon at least 42 months later. Armageddon is after Satan's miraculous capitalistic renewal of his deceptive empire. It is all about making money for someone after God took it all away. God doesn't need Satan's economy nor economic recovery. This is the removal of souls out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not giving humans a means of living.

So yes, the 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals go in lock step with each other. It is the point where Jesus' feet land on the mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. Obviously even current Jerusalem will get a physical makeover like all the rest of creation and all at the same time. Jesus will sit on His throne in Jerusalem at that point. There will not be a baptism of fire, later, which would then destroy what Jesus just put into place.

Jesus warned against the offerings of every other false Christ. Jesus never ruled out His own presence on earth. Many seem to misquote Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

He is going to be here and sitting on a throne. And the church is not mentioned as being around at all. So when is the post second coming event you call the rapture going to happen after Jesus is sitting on the throne in a Temple in Jerusalem? Paul seems to indicate it was on the way down, but that twinkling of an eye event seems to be the biggest tripping point. Kind of hard to live in the nanosecond in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. John never wrote down every single nanosecond of the future. That would have taken several million books and at least 1010 years, since that is about the time range, he covered.

You think some here just fill in too many details outside of Scripture. There are details throughout Scripture if one bothered to look, instead of trying to prove that something cannot happen, when it comes to God who does the impossible.

JESUS said 'no glorified bodies for anyone until His Return and the Resurrection.'

the Apostles said 'no glorified bodies for anyone until His Return and the Resurrection'

OT Prophets said 'no glorified bodies for anyone until His Return and the Resurrection'