The Rapture is Post-trib

[The Light]

Define your understanding of the "tribulation" and then I will answer the question. Am I asking too much? How can I answer the question without first knowing your understanding of "the tribulation"?
I'll just answer it this way since you don't want to tell me what you think "the tribulation" is.

Sorry I never saw this post. I saw that someone quoted you that you don't back down from a challenge and went back and found this.

Tribulation during the 1st 6 seals is the dragon bringing tribulation against those of the kingdom of God. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The world will say peace and safety and then the Lord will return for a harvest and then the wrath of God will begin after the 7th seal is opened.

Tribulation is not wrath.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days", so if you're asking which verses in Revelation correlate with Matthew 24:29-31, then I would say Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 10:7, Revelation 11:11-13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9. There are several parallel passages within the book that portray the second coming of Christ from different angles.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It is the same coming as Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is a harvest where the righteous are gathered and taken to heaven and the unrighteous remain and are cast into the wrath of God. We see a different view of the coming of Jesus in Revelation 6, which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, in Revelation 14. It is the harvest immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So the second coming, the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, and is seen also in the harvest of Revelation 14 HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the coming of Jesus with the armies of heaven which ends with the "second advent" and Jesus setting up His kingdom on earth.

 

[The Light]

@The Light have you ever wondered what those who are alive and remain…remained alive from? The word remain is the same word for surviving. So what do those raptured, taken by force, survive that everyone else died from if you believe they are taken before anything bad happens? Because survival, when everyone else died, doesn’t make sense on a Pre-TB timeline. Look up that word in the Greek. How does it logically fit?

From peri and leipo; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive -- remain

No. Never wondered. Those that are alive obviously survive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He comes for the dead in Chirst
He returns for the alive that remained.

LOL. Have you never read 1 Thess 4:14-17 which clearly portrays those things as happening at the same time?

He comes for the 144,000 first fruits

Where does it say that He comes down from heaven for them?

He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal
He comes with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

It's all the same one second coming. So, you disagree with the angels at His ascension who said He would come back in like manner as He left? I don't recall where they said He would come back more than once. You are clearly mistaken.

So, tell me, of all these comings of Christ that you believe in, which is the one that is referenced in Acts 1:11? The third one? Fifth one? Which?

And He will return in like manner.

He will only return in like manner as He left. There is no scripture saying He will return and go back and return again and go back, etc. LOL. Your beliefs are as ludicrous as any I've ever seen.

Can you show me where this indicates He will not descend from heaven more than once in the future. Good luck.

LOL. If He was then why wouldn't it be mentioned there? It is very strongly implied that He will come back once and it will be in like manner as He left. If he was coming back more than once then why doesn't the passage clarify which of his 5 future comings that you believe in is being referenced there? LOL.

This passage is very clear that Jesus will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day. It never says He will go back to heaven at all.
Luke 24
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

LOL. Is this supposed to be a strong argument? I hope not.

I know tribulation is not wrath. That is exactly the point.

Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation of those days which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH. And you claim it is the same coming as Jesus returning at the end of wrath.

Can you not understand your error?

Can you understand anything? I'm saying that He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days is over at which point the FINAL wrath of the Lamb comes down right then. It is described in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 among others.

Not hardly. Jesus returns at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH and then you want to claim it is the same coming as His coming after wrath.

Totally incorrect logic.

Not AFTER wrath. The wrath comes down when He comes. He is the one who will send it down. You're disagreeing with a straw man and making no effort to understand what I'm actually saying.

Look at this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This refers to His one and only future coming and indicates that on that day He will punish (KJV says "take vengeance") on His enemies. This will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So, can you see that His coming is right after the tribulation of those days and brings wrath upon all His enemies at that point? This will happen on the same day that "he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed" which is a clear reference to the day of the rapture. So, your pre-trib rapture and several comings of Christ theory is destroyed by this passage alone.

No, I'm saying tribulation is over at the sixth seal, just as the Word says. The seventh seal of wrath has not been opened and yet Jesus has already returned.

He will be "in the air" after having descended from heaven at that point with us being gathered to Him and then will send down His final wrath on His enemies.

Somehow you want to claim that Jesus return at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation is the same coming as Jesus coming at the end of wrath when the 7th seal has not even been opened.

I believe the 7th seal occurs immediately after the sixth seal, so He first descends from heaven at the 6th seal and His wrath comes down at the seventh seal that follows right afterwards. At the sixth seal people can see that His wrath is at hand, but it hasn't come down quite yet. Then it comes down at the 7th seal which is parallel to the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

Hmmm. You better pay more attention.

You need to start paying attention. Right now your beliefs are as far from the truth as heaven is from the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That does not address the challenge that I presented you. Didn't you say.......and I quote "I never back away from a challenge or from a question."
It's a simple challenge to you and anyone else.

So if you, or anyone else thinks they understand the order of the events of Revelation please attempt to put these chapters in the order they happen. Revelation 6 ,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19

LOL. And I meant it. Within reason. If I don't have time to respond, which I did not earlier, then that is not a case of me backing away from something, you silly goose.

It wouldn't make sense for me to try to put those in order when I see things in some of those chapters as happening at the same time. Also, some of those chapters don't just cover one period of time. So, for someone like me who says several parallels in the book it makes no sense to try to put entire chapters in order since I don't see the book that way as having a certain order by chapter.

I already told you which passages I see as all referring to the day Christ returns. You have nothing to say about that? You just ignore that and try to demand that I do something that doesn't even make sense for me to do based on how I interpret the book?

For example, I see Revelation 14 and 19 as basically covering the same time period, so how am I supposed to put them in order? It's pointless for me to do that. I don't see all of Revelation 11 as covering the same time period, but I see Revelation 11:15-19 as occurring at the same time as Revelation 19:11-21. So, what order should I put those in? See how it doesn't make sense for you to ask me to do this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry I never saw this post. I saw that someone quoted you that you don't back down from a challenge and went back and found this.

Tribulation during the 1st 6 seals is the dragon bringing tribulation against those of the kingdom of God. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The world will say peace and safety and then the Lord will return for a harvest and then the wrath of God will begin after the 7th seal is opened.

Tribulation is not wrath.

Again, tribulation can be wrath (see Romans 2:9 and Luke 21:23, for a couple examples). So, you're wrong to act as if tribulation can't be wrath. Anyway, I said I agree that the tribulation He comes after is not wrath. Regardless, the wrath comes down right after Jesus descends from heaven after the tribulation of those days. If you think that wrath doesn't come down when He comes or takes years to occur or anything like that, then you are mistaken and need to read passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It is the same coming as Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is a harvest where the righteous are gathered and taken to heaven and the unrighteous remain and are cast into the wrath of God. We see a different view of the coming of Jesus in Revelation 6, which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, in Revelation 14. It is the harvest immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So the second coming, the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, and is seen also in the harvest of Revelation 14 HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the coming of Jesus with the armies of heaven which ends with the "second advent" and Jesus setting up His kingdom on earth.

You're not making any sense, as usual. Once Jesus descends from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ and the armies of heaven (His angels) after the tribulation of those days, then the bodies of the dead in Christ will be raised and changed and they, along with those who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. Then immediately after that Jesus will send down His wrath on all of His enemies on the earth (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21, etc.). Separating all these things into different events at entirely different times is ludicrous and completely unnecessary. They are all part of the same event.

 

[The Light]

LOL. Have you never read 1 Thess 4:14-17 which clearly portrays those things as happening at the same time?

You might need to reread that. Though few understand.

Where does it say that He comes down from heaven for them?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

It's all the same one second coming. So, you disagree with the angels at His ascension who said He would come back in like manner as He left?

No. I don't disagree that He will come in like manner. I also understand that He will come and remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth BEFORE WRATH.

I don't recall where they said He would come back more than once. You are clearly mistaken.

I am absolutely not mistaken. How can you not see He comes before wrath at the 6th seal and comes at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven. It's simple.

So, tell me, of all these comings of Christ that you believe in, which is the one that is referenced in Acts 1:11? The third one? Fifth one? Which?

5th

He will only return in like manner as He left. There is no scripture saying He will return and go back and return again and go back, etc. LOL. Your beliefs are as ludicrous as any I've ever seen.

You like most miss all the details.

LOL. If He was then why wouldn't it be mentioned there? It is very strongly implied that He will come back once and it will be in like manner as He left. If he was coming back more than once then why doesn't the passage clarify which of his 5 future comings that you believe in is being referenced there? LOL.


LOL. Is this supposed to be a strong argument? I hope not.

I guess a lack of understanding produces a high degree of LOL.

Can you understand anything? I'm saying that He comes immediately after the tribulation of those days is over at which point the FINAL wrath of the Lamb comes down right then. It is described in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 among others.

Yes. I understand you lack understanding. How are you unable to understand that Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation which is before the 7th seal of wrath is opened. And Jesus returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven.

All these years and you still haven't figured it out.

Not AFTER wrath. The wrath comes down when He comes. He is the one who will send it down. You're disagreeing with a straw man and making no effort to understand what I'm actually saying.

Agreed. He comes at the end of wrath as He brings the final wrath.

Look at this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This refers to His one and only future coming and indicates that on that day He will punish (KJV says "take vengeance") on His enemies. This will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So, can you see that His coming is right after the tribulation of those days and brings wrath upon all His enemies at that point? This will happen on the same day that "he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed" which is a clear reference to the day of the rapture. So, your pre-trib rapture and several comings of Christ theory is destroyed by this passage alone.

He comes for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal and He comes at the end of wrath (the 7th seal) with the armies of heaven.

I believe the 7th seal occurs immediately after the sixth seal, so He first descends from heaven at the 6th seal and His wrath comes down at the seventh seal that follows right afterwards. At the sixth seal people can see that His wrath is at hand, but it hasn't come down quite yet. Then it comes down at the 7th seal which is parallel to the 7th trumpet and 7th vial.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, seen here.
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

You need to start paying attention. Right now your beliefs are as far from the truth as heaven is from the earth.

I realize that I don't agree with most of you. However, scripture says what it says. We don't need to make up anything.

 

[No Pre-TB]

He comes for the dead in Chirst
He returns for the alive that remained.
He comes for the 144,000 first fruits
He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal
He comes with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

Five more comings? Am I on a comedy show? Is that you Frank, you prankster!! You almost had me.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No. Never wondered. Those that are alive obviously survive.

Yes, they survive what everyone else didn’t during that terrible time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You might need to reread that. Though few understand.

What do you think I'm missing from the 1 Thess 4:14-17 passage? Please be specific.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


No. I don't disagree that He will come in like manner. I also understand that He will come and remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth BEFORE WRATH.

Yes, that happens right before His wrath comes down. It all happens as part of the same event according to passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. That's what you miss. You interpret the book of Revelation in such a way that contradicts other scriptures, but you don't seem to care about that. It's as if your Bible only consists of the book of Revelation.

I am absolutely not mistaken.

You are as mistaken as anyone could possibly be.

How can you not see He comes before wrath at the 6th seal and comes at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven. It's simple.

How many times do I have to tell you that the wrath comes down very shortly after the 6th seal is opened? Just read this:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Can you see here that it indicates that "the wrath of the Lamb", "the great day of his wrath is come"? That means His wrath is at hand at this point and just about to come down. First, He gathers His own to Himself "in the air". Then His wrath comes down. This is all happens quickly.

Your point that this is describing things before His wrath is meaningless since His wrath comes down right after this. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for it to say "the great day of his wrath is come" at that point.

5th

LOL! And how exactly do you know that the coming of Christ referenced in Acts 1:11 is the 5th future coming of Christ that you believe in? Why are none of His other supposed future comings mentioned there. Did the angels just not know about those or forget to mention them? LOL! Your view is as ludicrous as anything I've ever seen. No one can even make up a doctrine more ludicrous than yours.

You like most miss all the details.

I'm more than happy to miss the made up details that you come up with.

I guess a lack of understanding produces a high degree of LOL.

No, your absolutely ridiculous doctrine makes me LOL. It really does. It's the most ridiculous doctrine imaginable. Five future comings of Christ (or is there more?)? Unbelievable! LOL.

Yes. I understand you lack understanding. How are you unable to understand that Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation which is before the 7th seal of wrath is opened. And Jesus returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven.

He returns at the end of wrath? Which wrath is that exactly? Not the wrath that is described as occurring in accordance with His return, as described in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21.

All these years and you still haven't figured it out.

Here is what I've figured out. You are as clueless about end times doctrine as anyone could possibly be. You are wrong about everything when it comes to end times doctrine. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) because you try to figure all this out only with your own flawed intellect. I know that's true because that's the only way someone can believe that Jesus will return at least 5 more times in the future. LOL. Please give up that ridiculous belief for your own good. It makes it so that no one can take you seriously at all.

Agreed. He comes at the end of wrath as He brings the final wrath.

It's the final wrath in view as being at hand in the 6th seal. Then it comes down with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial. You're not recognizing the parallel passages in the book of Revelation, so you end up thinking it's talking about 57 different events in the book instead of recapitulating the same event several times from different angles.

He comes for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal and He comes at the end of wrath (the 7th seal) with the armies of heaven.

You indicated that you believe the 6th seal coincides with Matthew 24:29-31. Well, that passage has Him coming with His angels. Are the armies of heaven not His angels? The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the same time as Him coming with the armies of heaven. I don't know why you can't see that. Turning all these things into separate events is ludicrous. Do you think He is not capable of taking care of business all in one shot or what?

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, seen here.
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

That's most likely a representation of all the redeemed from all-time. He will gather all of His redeemed from all-time at the same time, as many scripture passages indicate, including 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thess 4:14-17.

I realize that I don't agree with most of you. However, scripture says what it says. We don't need to make up anything.

You are not understanding what it means. Seeing what it says and understanding what it means are different things. You are making up all kinds of things that are not taught in scripture, such as multiple future comings of Christ. That is not taught in scripture at all. Not even close. Yet, you not only believe that but believe in at least 5 future comings of Christ. Come on. That can't be taken seriously whatsoever. If you believe something crazy like that, then what reason does anyone have to pay attention to anything you believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Five more comings? Am I on a comedy show? Is that you Frank, you prankster!! You almost had me.

It's insane. I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to respond to such a ludicrous doctrine. No one else in the world believes it, so what is the point in refuting it? It's not as if I'm concerned that he will convince anyone else to believe such nonsense. I need to just ignore those posts from now on.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh yeah, in terms of Revelation 20 you think that billions of unbelievers from throughout the world will somehow all physically gather together in one place. I'd love to see an explanation of the logistics of that.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Do you think John was exaggerating?

Perhaps you are right and fire consumes them before they all arrive at their destination. So they all don't have to arrive at the same time, but all who started to head towards that camp of the saints were consumed by fire. How long do you think that little season lasts, and why they cannot all make it there in this little season?

The verse does not say camps plural, nor cities plural. But I guess you will have to see it to believe it.

 

[The Light]

What do you think I'm missing from the 1 Thess 4:14-17 passage? Please be specific.

1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead rise first. Passover. The Lord brings the dead with Him when He returns for the alive that remained. Pentecost, Feast of New Wine celebration of the Wheat harvest.

Yes, that happens right before His wrath comes down. It all happens as part of the same event according to passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. That's what you miss. You interpret the book of Revelation in such a way that contradicts other scriptures, but you don't seem to care about that. It's as if your Bible only consists of the book of Revelation.

You interpret scriptures like they are saying the same thing. In 1 Thes 4 we see the dead in Christ rise first. That means they have changed to incorruptible. Then after that the alive that remained are changed. In 1 Corinthians 15 we see the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. These two scriptures cannot and are not talking about the same event.

How many times do I have to tell you that the wrath comes down very shortly after the 6th seal is opened? Just read this:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Can you see here that it indicates that "the wrath of the Lamb", "the great day of his wrath is come"? That means His wrath is at hand at this point and just about to come down. First, He gathers His own to Himself "in the air". Then His wrath comes down. This is all happens quickly.

Your point that this is describing things before His wrath is meaningless since His wrath comes down right after this. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for it to say "the great day of his wrath is come" at that point.

Jesus comes and returns to heaven with the harvest seen here

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

You seem to lack understanding that Jesus comes to heaven and stays for 1 year, before He returns with the armies of heaven. It's not your fault that you do not understand this, as your teachers do not understand this.

LOL! And how exactly do you know that the coming of Christ referenced in Acts 1:11 is the 5th future coming of Christ that you believe in? Why are none of His other supposed future comings mentioned there. Did the angels just not know about those or forget to mention them? LOL! Your view is as ludicrous as anything I've ever seen. No one can even make up a doctrine more ludicrous than yours.

Jesus leaves the earth and is seen going up to the clouds. When Jesus returns it will be the same. He will come from the clouds to the earth. He will touch His feet to the mount of Olives, which happens after He returns with the armies of heaven. It is the last coming.

I'm more than happy to miss the made up details that you come up with.

I don't need to make anything up. It all fits like a glove as you ignore most of the details.

No, your absolutely ridiculous doctrine makes me LOL. It really does. It's the most ridiculous doctrine imaginable. Five future comings of Christ (or is there more?)? Unbelievable! LOL.

I don't expect you to see the first two coming of Jesus for the Church as the foolish are not watching. But you have no excuse for not seeing that Jesus returns for the 144,000. You also have no excuse for not seeing that Jesus returns at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath and the great multitude is in heaven with Jesus. All you see is Jesus returning to earth with the armies of heaven. How can you possible miss that Jesus returns to heaven with the great multitude and later returns after the marriage supper with armies of heaven.

You can LOL all you want. The scripture is clear BUT it doesn't fit you preconceived ideas. The book is unsealed. It's time for a some of you read what the scripture says and not what you want it to say.

He returns at the end of wrath? Which wrath is that exactly? Not the wrath that is described as occurring in accordance with His return, as described in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21.

When I say he is returning at the end of wrath, that is when He returns after the marriage supper with the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[The Light]

Here is what I've figured out. You are as clueless about end times doctrine as anyone could possibly be. You are wrong about everything when it comes to end times doctrine. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) because you try to figure all this out only with your own flawed intellect. I know that's true because that's the only way someone can believe that Jesus will return at least 5 more times in the future. LOL. Please give up that ridiculous belief for your own good. It makes it so that no one can take you seriously at all.

How can those that are not looking for the Messiah AS INSTRUCTED, have any clue about what is going to happen. Your doctrine comes from men without faith that God would keep His promise to Israel. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. It time to realize that Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal. Then returns to heaven with the great multitude. Remains in heaven as wrath begins and then returns to earth with the armies of heaven.

I see lots of LOL, with little understanding. I can support everything I say with scripture. You can't. You leave out all the details of scripture and ignore the facts.

It's the final wrath in view as being at hand in the 6th seal. Then it comes down with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial. You're not recognizing the parallel passages in the book of Revelation, so you end up thinking it's talking about 57 different events in the book instead of recapitulating the same event several times from different angles.

You seem to want to ignore the facts. Jesus comes at the 6th seal, BEFORE WRATH. Returns to heaven with the great multitude. Stays in heaven for 1 year during the marriage supper and then returns with the armies of heaven and then sets up His kingdom.

You indicated that you believe the 6th seal coincides with Matthew 24:29-31. Well, that passage has Him coming with His angels. Are the armies of heaven not His angels? The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the same time as Him coming with the armies of heaven. I don't know why you can't see that. Turning all these things into separate events is ludicrous. Do you think He is not capable of taking care of business all in one shot or what?

He comes for a harvest at the 6th seal. That harvest is the great multitude. He remains in heaven and returns with the armies of heaven at the end of the marriage supper.

I don't expect you to be able to see He comes before the seals are opened. But you sure should be able to see the harvest at the 6th seal and then the return after the marriage supper. It's all right there in scripture, but your doctrine taught by men will not allow you to see what is clear. How you miss this, I cannot explain.

That's most likely a representation of all the redeemed from all-time. He will gather all of His redeemed from all-time at the same time, as many scripture passages indicate, including 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thess 4:14-17.

1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are not talking about the same event as has already been proven.

You are not understanding what it means. Seeing what it says and understanding what it means are different things. You are making up all kinds of things that are not taught in scripture, such as multiple future comings of Christ. That is not taught in scripture at all. Not even close. Yet, you not only believe that but believe in at least 5 future comings of Christ. Come on. That can't be taken seriously whatsoever. If you believe something crazy like that, then what reason does anyone have to pay attention to anything you believe?

Like I said. I don't expect the blind to see that He comes when you think not. But I do expect you to see He comes for the 144,000 first fruits as it is clearly written in scripture. You should also see that He comes for a harvest at the 6th seal and then returns with the armies of heaven after the marriage supper. This is impossible to miss so you have no excuse.

 

[The Light]

It wouldn't make sense for me to try to put those in order when I see things in some of those chapters as happening at the same time.

That's the whole point. Some things happen at the same time, and some don't. It seems obvious you don't understand the timeline of Revelation.

Also, some of those chapters don't just cover one period of time. So, for someone like me who says several parallels in the book it makes no sense to try to put entire chapters in order since I don't see the book that way as having a certain order by chapter.

Just say what is parallel. It's simple enough.

I already told you which passages I see as all referring to the day Christ returns. You have nothing to say about that? You just ignore that and try to demand that I do something that doesn't even make sense for me to do based on how I interpret the book?

Are you unable to accept the challenge?

For example, I see Revelation 14 and 19 as basically covering the same time period, so how am I supposed to put them in order? It's pointless for me to do that. I don't see all of Revelation 11 as covering the same time period, but I see Revelation 11:15-19 as occurring at the same time as Revelation 19:11-21. So, what order should I put those in? See how it doesn't make sense for you to ask me to do this?

What you are saying makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why you can't just list in order the chapters of Revelation. If you have chapters that overlap the same time period just say so.

 

[The Light]

Five more comings? Am I on a comedy show? Is that you Frank, you prankster!! You almost had me.

You know what's more amazing. You think He comes only once more when the Word clearly says otherwise. You ought to be able to see the last three.

 

[ewq1938]

You know what's more amazing. You think He comes only once more when the Word clearly says otherwise. You ought to be able to see the last three.

You are wrong. No one agrees with you. Even people who have opposing theological views all understand that Christ does not have 3-4 or more comings left.

 

[Timtofly]

You indicated that you believe the 6th seal coincides with Matthew 24:29-31. Well, that passage has Him coming with His angels. Are the armies of heaven not His angels? The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the same time as Him coming with the armies of heaven. I don't know why you can't see that. Turning all these things into separate events is ludicrous. Do you think He is not capable of taking care of business all in one shot or what?

How are billions of redeemed and billions of angels all going to fit logistically in one city on earth, at the Second Coming?

Did you not already dismiss that billions of unbelievers show up at the same moment as well? You have the entire creation meeting in a singular place at a singular time, no?

How does that make any sense?

The Second Coming does not bring any one but Jesus and the angels to the earth, and the angels don't all have to be in the same local. They are about to seal 144k humans all over the earth out of every nation. Then those 144k are going to follow Jesus around wherever He goes, not billions.

Then the angels are going to gather living humans and bring them to Jerusalem to stand in judgment before Jesus as King. The sheep will be changed and sent to the sea of glass before the throne in heaven. The goats tossed into the LOF that resulted from the earth being baptized in fire. Then later the angels will seperate the tares from the wheat called the final harvest. You declared it nonsensical to have every one at the same place at the same time, yet refuse to accept the church remains in Paradise for a thousand years. The sheep and wheat subdue the earth for a thousand years along with the 144k. The goats and tares will be in the LOF along with the beast and the FP for a thousand years. Satan will be bound for a thousand years.

The GT is the final harvest of billions of people. Some placed in Death, some cast alive into the LOF. But it all happens during the Trumpets and Thunders. That is what those judgments are for. Not parallel views of the last 1993 years and counting. If Satan is allowed 42 months, then the AoD will happen and many will receive the mark, and some will choose to be beheaded to avoid the mark. That happens in the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The AoD happens after the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Because the AoD ends with Jesus returning with the 144k and the sheep and the wheat all firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus and the 144k do not co-reign with Satan and company for 42 months. That is why they are waiting on Heavenly Mount Zion. The final harvest is prior to the AoD, because after those 42 months no one will be alive on earth to harvest. The GT has to happen before the AoD. The Second Coming has to happen at the 6th Seal, because Jesus and the angels are on earth during the final harvest. That is Matthew 13.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus and the angels are literal in the field, meaning on the earth. The parable places Jesus and the reapers on the earth. The explanation places Jesus and the angels on the earth. Matthew 24 places Jesus and the angels on the earth. Matthew 25 places Jesus and the angels on the earth. Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal places Jesus on the earth. The angels are symbolized by all the stars falling to earth, so they are on the earth as well. The 144k are sealed on the earth, not removed and sealed elsewhere. They are sealed to be protected on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They don't reign on the earth during Satan's 42 months. They return in Revelation 19 on white horses, because they go everywhere Jesus goes.

For all we know, they left on white horses and will return just like they left. Jesus left while standing on the mount of Olives. Jesus will return by standing on the mount of Olives all by Himself; the 144k are not sealed yet. You deny Zechariah 14 that declares that very fact. You deny that the church leaves before the 7th Seal and the First Trumpet even sounds. But the 6th Seal is when 2 Peter 3's baptism of fire happens and comes as a thief in the night when no one is expecting the Second Coming.

Revelation 19 is a planned event on the Last Sunday of the 7th Trumpet sounding, at Armageddon, with the remaining hordes of humanity waiting to fight Jesus and His armies. They are not consumed by fire. The birds feast on their flesh and their souls placed in Death. This is not the billions you claim march across the road to their neighbors house. This is the last of humanity hanging out near Jerusalem, the capital city of the Mystery Babylonian Empire. The rest of the earth is a barren wasteland. No one is on earth except those with the mark. None of them can be gathered in a final harvest. The final harvest already happened prior to the last 42 months.

During the 5th Seal perhaps a billion or more will be raptured away from the earth. During the Trumpets billions more will be sent to the LOF as goats, while a remnant of Israel will be redeemed as sheep. During the Thunders billions will be removed as the tares and the wheat. This final harvest is the removal of living humanity. It is not the instant physical death of all and then they stand as dead before the GWT. It is not the resurrection out of sheol, because Death is just getting started at the 4th Seal. You cannot empty something that has not even been filled yet. Even during the Millennium some will disobey, and instantly placed in Death. Those consumed by fire would be souls placed in Death. The Second Coming cannot be both the placement into Death, and the emptying of Death in one instant. That is nonsense. Those who teach others a post everything Second Coming, even the Millennium, do not allow God to work out the Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders over time as John declares they will happen in a systematic and methodological manner.

The final harvest takes place over days and weeks. Then after that Satan may get 42 months. Not a little season. A short time, and then perhaps 42 months. Satan's time is short because it is only days. If those days turn into those 42 months, it still ends before he is bound and defeated at Armageddon. And still not the little season he is loosed after being bound. Satan does not get 42 months after being loosed to set up an AoD. Satan only has a little season to get people to rebel and stage a protest against the capital. And your billions of marchers rally at the capital not their backyard. Your "logistics parking nightmare" does not happen as they are consumed by fire before anything happens.

 

[No Pre-TB]

it indicates that "the wrath of the Lamb", "the great day of his wrath is come"? That means His wrath is at hand at this point and just about to come down. First, He gathers His own to Himself "in the air". Then His wrath comes down. This is all happens quickly.

Honestly, I don’t see it that way. Before you suggest I’m wrong, hear me out.

The wicked of the earth suggest his wrath has now come. What do the wicked know? Doesn’t destruction come as a thief? Then how do they know?

I’m not saying the Day of the Lord doesn’t begin after the 7th seal, I’m merely suggesting that the words at the 6th seal be looked at closely. Secondly, the interlude between the 1st trumpet and 7th seal suggest the wrath is not on man, but on Babylon. Babylon’s destruction answers the prayers in the 5th seal. I notice a more cause and effect through the trumpets. Example: Babylon destroyed causes mourning, followed by bitterness followed by revolting. This specific wrath is not said to be full strength, nor is it unmixed or poured out. OT scriptures of God’s poured out wrath, like in the bowls, is always to destroy wicked men. That isn’t shown in the trumpets and perhaps that is why grace is given for repentance during those times because the door is not yet shut.

You may disagree, I did not add scripture because I’m on my phone so my opinion lacks credible evidence and I’m ok with that. If you’d be interested in more, we can talk.

 

[The Light]

You are wrong. No one agrees with you. Even people who have opposing theological views all understand that Christ does not have 3-4 or more comings left.

The Word of God agrees with me. That's enough.

If you can't see at least 3 more coming of Jesus something is wrong.

You know that He comes with the armies of heaven. That's one coming.

You should know that He comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. And yet you deny that coming occurs. There is evidence that it occurs as there is a great multitude in heaven just after this coming. We also know that it occurs immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE wrath. And yet you deny the truth of the Word of God because you can't accept what written because the Word doesn't agree with you. That's two comings.

You should be able to see that the Lord comes for the first fruits of the 144,000, and redeems them from the earth. It's right there in the Word of God, and yet you deny what is written.

Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So I really don't care who agrees with me. I only care that I agree with Word of God. I don't need to make excuses like this doesn't happen when the Word says it happens or dream up who the 144,000 are when the answer is already given. Until you accept what is written, you will never understand the Word of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The Word of God agrees with me. That's enough.

It doesn't agree with you. You are alone in your personally created end times storyline.

If you can't see at least 3 more coming of Jesus something is wrong.

No, something is right to reject it.

You know that He comes with the armies of heaven. That's one coming.

It is the only coming. The resurrection and rapture happen then. I have proven this many times by quoting Paul.

You should know that He comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth.

You should know the seals are not events happening at the time of the seal being opened.

And yet you deny that coming occurs. There is evidence that it occurs as there is a great multitude in heaven just after this coming.

The multitude is from an entirely different timeframe. You errantly think Rev is chronological but it isn't. That's the first advanced understanding the HS gives those who are seeking to understand Rev.

Until you accept what is written, you will never understand the Word of God.

Until you UNDERSTAND what is written, you will never understand the Word of God.