The ado is about false teachings lulling people into a false sense of security, preaching their message of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Preparing to stay will also prepare you to go, but preparing to go will leave you unprepared to stay. He who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13).
The Rapture
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The ado is about false teachings lulling people into a false sense of security, preaching their message of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3). Preparing to stay will also prepare you to go, but preparing to go will leave you unprepared to stay. He who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13).
The word "Trinity" isn't in scripture either, but it is undoubtedly taught! We tend to name things, for many reasons, but it doesn't ever change the core message.
As far as the Bible being accurate, well, consider a few things. Jesus often confirmed the OT, he taught from it! And then we must remember that Jesus IS the Word of God. That as Christians we have the Holy Spirit within us! Do you really think that God, in all His persons, couldn't keep, couldn't assure that His message remain true throughout the centuries? The gospel is a living thing and it is alive in those who follow Him! If it becomes hard to determine which "translation" of scripture is actually God breathed, try looking at those pushing it....it usually quite clear to see the agenda! There are those who push translations to support their ideas, their continued sins, and there are those who want nothing more than to push God's agenda, learn from God's word and grow closer to Him through His word!
St Columcille
New Member
It is a translation from Kione Greek to the Latin, but if you recall the sign that was over Jesus head during the crucifixion was rendered into three languages. Latin was the language of Rome, and it was the Romans who physically crucified Christ. When Jerome translated the Hebrew and Greek into Latin, it was the language of the Church in the West. As a translation, I am only pointing to the root of the word from which the doctrine is named. It is easier to make a doctrinal reference by the use of one word in "rapture" than it is to say the doctrine of "caught up" or the doctrine of "harpazo," which is the Greek word in 1 Thess. 4.17. I have stated my prior believe in pretribulation and in posttribulation rapture, but I do not hold to this position any longer. It is simply the coming advent of our Lord, nobody knows the day or the hour. I will simply say that if there is a position I am closer to in regards to eschatology, it would be the amillinialism position and I could see myself agreeing with some aspects of the posttribulationist. However, I do not dogmatically defend the positions, only the position that Christ will return and leave it at that.
Please, no claims that the Roman Church was the first Church. The first Churches were those which Apostle Paul was given to oversee, and those which the Apostles went to, like the Churches in Asia in Rev.2 & 3. And historically, Britain was Christinized before Rome was.
I don't think the OP intended this thread to turn into a rapture debate, but looks like that's where it's going. I write the following in earnest brother.
We're supposed to be sober and watching the signs our Lord Jesus gave us leading up to His return. That's why Paul mentioned the times and the seasons in that 1 Thess.5 chapter also, even that that day was not to take us by surprise like a thief in the night. Christ coming as a thief is for the deceived, those in darkness who don't pay attention to our Lord's signs in His Word.
[sup]
And who are those that were 'taken' in that flood? The wicked. God's servants like Noah and his family were protected in the ark. Christ is our Ark for the endtime tribulation. He also is our Passover sacrificed for us (1 Cor.5:7). This is why Rev.12 shows us to be prepared with the Testimony of Christ when the flood of waters out of the dragon's mouth is cast after God's people in the last days. It's a symbolic endtime link to the flood of Noah's days. Don't get off the boat, eh, I mean the Ark, which is symbolic of Christ Who will lead us through those waters of a flood from the dragon.
[sup]
You left out the rest of that which is actually the most important part...
Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)
When our Lord said that about two women grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left, the one taken is in the same sense of those who were taken in the flood and perished. Christ's disciples asked Him just "Where" those taken would be taken to. And He said wheresoever the "carcase" is, that's where the eagles (vultures) will gather. We can easily know vultures is really meant, because eagles don't go after what is already dead (carcase). But scavengers like vultures do.
The actual meaning? Those first ones 'taken' are taken to the wicked servants of the devil, in deception. In Matt.24 at the end of that chapter, Christ gave a Message for us to be found still working for Him when He returns, giving meat in due season.
And you quoted that...
[sup]
The above example is Christ talking about His servants that stay in the field (world) doing His work to the day of His coming. These are not the ones 'taken' in the Luke 17 example. Doctrines of men have twisted those examples into a hoax fooling many believers.
Here's about the wicked that won't remain sober and watching...
[sup]
One of the most important ideas to note our Lord gave in that is, "when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of".
The reason the deceived of God's people won't be looking for Him then, and why Christ's coming will surprise them, is because they will believe He is already here. That's the event of the "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5 the deceived will be saying. That will be the time of the one world government system fully established on earth in place of God's Kingdom, and with a false king head that will have two horns like a lamb (Christ), but will speak as the dragon (Rev.13).
If you think deceived brethren that accept immorality today instead of rebuking it per God's Word is something, just wait to our near future when they bow in worship to a false one they will actually believe is our Lord Jesus.
God has prepared a false one for them because of their forgetting Him and His Word. When that false one appears, doing great signs and wonders to fool them into thinking he's our Lord, they will STOP looking for Christ's coming at that point. That's how The True Christ's later return will be in a time they least expect. That's how the true return of Christ will be upon them as a thief breaking in at midnight. They will have fallen asleep (spiritually) in the last hour.
Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)
In that verse, Christ equates His coming as a thief only upon those who won't watch, AND those that don't know what hour that is. The signs Christ gave for His coming nail it down to the very hour, it's just that no one knows what day that is yet, nor when to start the countdown for the last hour. For those not aware of that, time to get cracking in His Word, for He revealed that to His servants. But to those who keep declaring Christ's return can be at any moment, they don't know.
Actually God never intended for the scriptures to lead us but rather for the scriptures to confirm we are to be led by HolySpirit.
Now , I want to ask you something, do you believe that all bibles (translations) are preserved by God?
Do you believe that God preserves the His gospel by translations? You said "there are those who use translations to push their ideas" but the truth is, that same agenda is the motivation behind many of the translations from the start pushing religious ideas. Is the gospel a message of a living thing or a living person?
Don't misunderstand me, I love the scriptures and am thankful that we have them and I read them everyday and find encouragement in them but they are not my guide nor are they a mediator for relating to Father.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Is this an admission that the idea of purgatory is somewhat suspect??!!
Nope. Catholics rely on scripture and Tradition to describe Purgatory. Protestants do the same with Rapture doctrine.
-- Again, unfortunately there is no scripture that supports the concept of 'purgatory.' And using 'tradition' to support an idea without scripture to support it as well is worthless.
The practice of Baal worship where their children were sacrificed was a 'tradition' for that belief. Just because it is a 'tradition' doesn't automatically make it right.
And again, as shown here with a number of scriptures, there is scriptural support for the concept of the Rapture. Purgatory?.....not so much.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You may not accept the verses that describe Purgatory, but the really means nothing.......sola private interpration is irrelavant
No.. I am not even saying that any translation is a 100% the same as what was originally copied down. But what I am saying is that God has preserved his word. Now we may have to study a little bit, and we may have to look at a couple of different translations if we can't read the original Greek or Hebrew, and we might even have to look up some of the meaning to some of the original words that is used. But what I am saying is that the information is there, if we bother to look at it.
And as far as you speaking for God, I would ask how do you know that God never intended for the scriptures to lead us? Do you know the mind of God? Has God verbally told you this? Or is this just your opinion? For if it is just your opinion then I would take care in how I treated the Word of God.
Joshua David
what scriptures describe purgatory?
Also I disagree with your interpretation about the rapture. A careful study of the word harpazo, the word that is used in scripture perfectly describes the rapture. The word means to 'snatch away by force'. So what Paul was saying was that we shall be snatched away by force to meet him in the air. Which to me pretty much describes the rapture. So the issue is not if the rapture is taught in the scriptures, it is, the issue is whether you accept it.
Joshua David
-- There is no scripture that supports purgatory. The justification is equal to being told that if you look at the clouds, close one eye, squint hard with the other, and use the imagination God has given you, ta-dah, the cloud is a pony.
Likewise using 'tradition' to support the idea of accuracy is ridiculous.
Whether you agree with the concept of the Rapture or not, you can at least find actual scripture that supports the idea. Is there room for argument/discussion? Of course.
But at least you can argue for or against on a scriptural basis.
Well I agree that there is room for argument/discussion on the basis of timing, but for me to deny that the rapture is real is the same as saying that you deny that the bible is correct, or trying to spiritualize the scriptures to such a degree that they end up failing to make any logical sense.
For instance, let's say that we were sitting around talking and one friend asked, "Where is Johnny?" I say, "He went to the store." My other friend Greg, who spiritualizes everything, says, "Why do you think he went to the store?"
I say, "Because he said, ' I will be right back, I am going to the store."
Greg says, "Well what he meant was that he needed something and was going to a place to get what he needed. We all need knowledge and true knowledge only comes from God, and to talk to God, one must pray, so it is obvious that Johnny is somewhere praying."
I roll my eyes, ( as well as everyone else ) knowing that it is useless to argue with Greg, because he is so convinced that Johnny is somewhere praying that he will refuse to hear any arguments that suggest otherwise.
The people who deny the rapture, are like Greg. Even though Jesus said, "If I go, I will return and receive you unto myself." Even if Paul said that at the last trump, we will be snatched away by force to meet Jesus in the air that is not enough for them.
So if the Greg's out there want to believe that Johnny is somewhere praying, go ahead, but I believe that when he said he was going to the store, he really was going to the store. I guess I am just simple like that.
Joshau David
All I can say Joshua is that there are some very learned scholars who have committed their entire lives to God and His word....and some come down on the side supporting the Rapture and some on the side that state it is wrong. And the difficult thing is, both sides provide scripture to support their position.
And of those who believe in the Rapture, some think it is pre-Tribulation, some mid-Tribulation, and some post-Tribulation.
Again, these are learned scholars who have spent 30, 40, 50 years wanting only to know God's truth.
I have hopes of an early return of Jesus, but when I dig further I find no certainty that will be the case.
Best just to ask God to fortify you for the duration and pray you are pleasantly, wonderfully surpised.
And of those who believe in the Rapture, some think it is pre-Tribulation, some mid-Tribulation, and some post-Tribulation.
Again, these are learned scholars who have spent 30, 40, 50 years wanting only to know God's truth.
I have hopes of an early return of Jesus, but when I dig further I find no certainty that will be the case.
Best just to ask God to fortify you for the duration and pray you are pleasantly, wonderfully surpised.
Sir,
With the Naveś Topical or with any translation, save, possibly, the NWT and perhaps the Message, it is very clear that God is limitless! For the situation you appear to be seeking to infer to be true God could be contained and that is, just, not true. God has been, in the past, and is keeping His Word to His Creation pure and bibles like the NWT are being cast away.
Now, you are busy being rude and trying to disrupt the conversation here with your personal agenda and that my friend is not Spirit inspired nor is it led by Him!
No! Not in any manor.
Robbie
New Member
Trying to find where Jiggyfly was being rude? I just see him having his own opinion... don't see him calling anyone names or using scriptures to imply people are the devil or anything... haha... most of what I see is him just asking questions... so how is that being rude?
The scriptures tell us many, many times who God has intended to lead us and I'm sure that it is in your bible and if you need, I would be happy to show them to you.
My questions are pertinent to the topic and if you are not able to answer them substantially it's OK, there is no need to make unfounded accusations.
Thanks for the support Robbie
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