The Rapture

[Joshua David]

Robbie,

So that sucks to hear about your illness... I hate disease = ( but think for a moment... and I'm not saying this is right but just a "what if". What if some pastor (Let's not use Benny Hinn's name since it seems to bring up to many preconceived judgments) was right and it is our lack of faith that was hindering us from being healed? I mean you never read once when it comes to Jesus that He wasn't willing to heal... it was always attributed to our lack of faith...

Didn't Paul pray three times for the 'thorn in his flesh', which most bible scholars believe was some type of eye problem, to be removed? Now if it was just a matter of it being a lack of faith, then we would have been told that.

2 Cor 12:6-9 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. [sup]7[/sup]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

[sup]8[/sup]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

[sup]9[/sup]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.




Joshua David

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Edit Double Posted, what is next is from a teaching at a school I am currently going and the topic we started going over last night was prayer. I so far agree with what has been taught. When I first posted it it somehow posted two completely separate posts, one which had 5 different copies of the original. Should be edited and fine now.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

The prayer and faith things is kinda off topic to the OP, but I've been taking a class and I agree with the teaching so I'll post this from the syllabus by Troy S. Welch. I'll use -- to indicate what I am copying from his material.

--In John 14: 13-14 Jesus said: "...whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, taht will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye ask anything in My name, I will do it."--

He took the time during class to explain that the word ask in the original language meant to present a petition to a superior within the presented guidelines.

Before continuing, he explained that God is more concerned with out attitude than our method of prayer, but that the Bible gives us ways to address our petitions to God.

--1. Prayer Is To Be Addressed To The Father

First of all, we need to understand that there is a proper form to making a withdrawal from this account through prayer. We are to address our prayer to the Father. All prayer is to be addressed to God the Father.

Matthew 6:9 says; "after this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

John 15:16 says; "...that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Ephesians 5:20 says; "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

In each of these passages we are told to direct our prayer to the Father. Yet, many of us pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit, and some even attempt to pray to Mary or the saints. All prayer is to be directed to the Father. Jesus and the Holy Spirit even pray to the Father.

According to John 14:16 Jesus prays to the Father; "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

According to Romans 8:26 the Holy Spirit prays to the Father; "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

2. Prayer It To Be In The Name Of Jesus

Second, according to John 14:13-14 our prayer should be presented in the name of Jesus. "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that thte Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Jesus is the only one who has established an account with us. So, we are to ask in the name of Jesus.

3. Prayer Is To Be In The Sphere Of The Spirit

Thirdly, our prayer should be offered in the sphere of the control of the Holy Spirit. He is the personalty of the Godhead which has the role of controlling us, comforting us, guiding us, and empowering us.

Misunderstandings Concerning Prayer

There are a lot of misuinderstandings and false teachings concerning prayer today. Some indivisuals have taken certain scriptures about prayer out of context and are teaching that the only hindrance to your getting anything you desire is your faith..

There is another misunderstanding that we need to get straight right now. Some have said God doesn't always answer their prayer. That's not true. God answers all our prayers! The problem some have is that they don't understand how God answers prayers.

Two Aspects Of Every Prayer

The Bible teaches us that God answers prayer in four ways. However, before we can study the four ways that God answers prayer we need to understand that there are two aspects of every prayer.

Every prayer consists of a petitiona nd a desire. To understand the way God answers prayer, we must see the distinction between the petition and the desire.

The petition is the specific thing we ask God to do. The desire is what we believe the petitioned thing will accomplish. Listen, I want to state that again. The petition is the specific thing we ask God to do. The desire is what we believe the petitioned thing will accomplish. You see, behind every pettiion, there is a motivating desire. God answers our prayers with these two aspects in mind.

Four Ways God Answers Prayer

When God answers prayer, He considers both the Petition and the Desire associated with each prayer. Various combinations of response to petitions and desires result in four ways that God answers. Now let's look at the four ways God answers our prayers.

1. Yes to the petition- No to the desire

One way God answers prayer is by saying yes to the petition and no to the desire. Our illustration is found in Numbers 11:4-34
--

It talks about how the children of Israel were unsatisfied with the mana and asked God for meat. They got their meat but they still weren't satisfied showing God answered their petition but not the desire.
--
2. No to the petition- yes to the desire

Another way God answers prayer is by saying No! to the petition but Yes! to the desire. That is, we ask God for something believing it will give us the happiness we desire. God says no to the petition but brings about the happiness in another way. This is illustrated in Genesis 18 and 19 by Abraham's petition to God to spare Sodom and Gomorra so Lot might be safe. God said not to the petition. He did not spare Sodom and Gomorra. But He said yes to the desire and spared Lot. God often answers our prayer just this way. He says not to the petition but yes to the desire.

3. Yes to the petition- Yes to the desire

The third way God answers prayer is by saying Yes to the petition and Yes to the desire. This is illustrated in John 11:39-44 where Jesus prayed to the Father...

Jesus' petition was that Lazarus might be raised from the dead. His desire was that the bystanders might believe. God said yes to the petition and yes to the desire. He raised Lazarus from the dead, and the bystanders believed. That's the way we want all our prayers answered. But it's only one way God answers prayer.

4. No to the petition- No to the desire

The last way God answers prayer is by saying No to the petition and No to the desire. That's an answer. It may not be the one we want, but it is an answer.

Seven basic reasons God says no

If God says no to both the petition and the desire, it's because of one of seven basic reasons.

1. Carnality

The major reason He says no to both petition and desire is because of Carnality. Psalm 66:18 says: "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me..."

God does not obligate Himself to answer the prayer of a believer out of fellowship. Remember the Prodigal Son had nothing and was destitute when he had wasted his substance in riotous living. It was only when he returned to his father's house that his access to the family resources was restored.

2. Selfishness

James 4:2-3 says, "Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."

3. Lack of Faith

The third reason God says no to both the petition and desire is due to our lack of faith. We are instructed in many different passages of scripture to pray believing. In speaking in praying for wisdom James 1:5-7 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is ilke a wave of th sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

Faith in God is essential- faith that God is able to do what He promises and that God will do what He promises.

Matthew 21:22 says: "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."

4. Lack of Compassion

Proverbs 21:13 says: "Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard."

God has placed a condition on prayer that is based on our compassion of others. This factor has to be harmonized with the other biblical concepts with regard to prayer. This is a basic principle of God in watching over the welfare of His children.

5. Pride

Job 35:12-13 says "There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men. Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it."

6. Lack of Harmony In The Home

1 Peter 3:7 says "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

Yes! God has told us that there needs to be a positive response to our proper roles in the family structure in order to precent our prayers from being hindered.

7. Not compatible with His will

1 John 5:14 says, "And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He heareth us.

--
A few other points he makes are
--

Prayer is to be offered with thanksgiving, Ephesians 5:20 says, "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The only prayer God has Obligated Himself to respond to from the believer out of fellowship is the confession of his sins as per 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

--
His closing words
--
As a believer you have been places as a son with the right to draw upon the family account and your access to that account is prayer. If you make out your check accroding to the guidelines, God will honor that check and say yes to the petition, the desire, or to both the petition and the desire.
--

Hope this was beneficial. I agree with what he teaches here about prayer.

M

 

[Foreigner]

When we have a prayer for healing that appears to be unanswered we need to consider that God is not our genie in a bottle or our Santa Claus.

We cannot search God's thoughts ("your thoughts are not My thoughts and your ways are not My ways.")

God has His own reasons for delaying healing or not allowing healing to take place altogether.

Many times the challenges and trust that must be strengthened in your relationship with God if he doesn't come through on YOUR timetable is important for long term growth in your relationship with Jesus.

If you trust that He loves you and is true to His word, then your 'lack of faith' concerns will be addressed, you will receive God's peace about the issue, and you will increase your knowledge of God and your trust in Him.

 

[Robbie]

Wow Joshua... thanks so much for mentioning that verse... now that I know Paul had a thorn in his flesh I'll throw out everything that Jesus said about the signs that would follow believers, the authority given to His children, the eventuality of every last enemy being under out feet, how faith increases power, and basically much of His teachings of the gospel of the Kingdom... hahaha...

Dude... it's like every time this topic comes up someone chimes in with that verse and I seriously don't get it? It's like do people read through Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and hear everything Jesus said about the topic and then get to a couple sentence Paul wrote and say to themselves, "Oh... wait a minute... never mind everything Jesus said because Paul had a messenger from satan and said God wouldn't remove it because if he did Paul would be to much f a Rockstar so let's just not acknowledge everything Jesus said" hahaha...

Here's the deal...

Jesus taught about the signs that would follow those who believe, how as faith increases so does our power and our victory, how every last enemy would be put under His feet, etc.. and He's my Teacher... on the other hand Paul shared about his struggle with a messenger from satan and how God wouldn't remove it because Paul would have been to big of a Rockstar if He did... haha... that's fine... that's Pauls' deal... but I'm not gonna lessen what Jesus said because of Paul's struggle that helped take Him down of his high horse...

Here's another fact...

Paul openly admitted to not yet being perfected and to not understanding certain things...

Jesus was perfect and understood everything...

So I'm definitely never going to let Paul's struggles overrule an understanding that came through Christ's victory...

 

[Joshua David]

Wow Joshua... thanks so much for mentioning that verse... now that I know Paul had a thorn in his flesh I'll throw out everything that Jesus said about the signs that would follow believers, the authority given to His children, the eventuality of every last enemy being under out feet, how faith increases power, and basically much of His teachings of the gospel of the Kingdom... hahaha...

Dude... it's like every time this topic comes up someone chimes in with that verse and I seriously don't get it? It's like do people read through Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and hear everything Jesus said about the topic and then get to a couple sentence Paul wrote and say to themselves, "Oh... wait a minute... never mind everything Jesus said because Paul had a messenger from satan and said God wouldn't remove it because if he did Paul would be to much f a Rockstar so let's just not acknowledge everything Jesus said" hahaha...

Here's the deal...

Jesus taught about the signs that would follow those who believe, how as faith increases so does our power and our victory, how every last enemy would be put under His feet, etc.. and He's my Teacher... on the other hand Paul shared about his struggle with a messenger from satan and how God wouldn't remove it because Paul would have been to big of a Rockstar if He did... haha... that's fine... that's Pauls' deal... but I'm not gonna lessen what Jesus said because of Paul's struggle that helped take Him down of his high horse...

Here's another fact...

Paul openly admitted to not yet being perfected and to not understanding certain things...

Jesus was perfect and understood everything...

So I'm definitely never going to let Paul's struggles overrule an understanding that came through Christ's victory...

Robbie,

I never said that we should throw out everything that Jesus said. What I said was that just because God does not answer a prayer, it does not necessarily mean that it is because of a lack of faith.

Sometimes it is because of sin, sometimes it is because we ask amiss, sometimes it is because God has something better in mind for us, and sometimes it is because for whatever reason, God says no.

I am not saying that just because God said no to Paul, we shouldn't expect God to answer our prayers. What I am saying is that IF God does not answer our prayers, we should not immediately assume that it was because of a lack of faith.

Joshua David

 

[Robbie]

Ok... and it also doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't because of our lack of faith... and that was my point... so there's a whole bunch of Jesus attributing lack of His power to lack of our faith... and you brought up there's Paul saying that God didn't remove the messenger from satan when Paul asked Him to because if He did Paul would have been to big of a Rockstar... to me they have nothing to do with each other...

So for me based on the teachings of Christ I personally believe God wants to remove every enemy of His from my life as I'm His child and I believe any servant of satan is an enemy of my Father... and I believe it's my lack of faith that's hindering the fullness of my victory and not a lack of His power or willingness... since Jesus said it is God's will to put every last enemy under His feet... that's my beliefs... and for me personally Paul's belief that God wanted him to have a messenger from satan to knock him off his high horse is between him and God... it's none of my business and it doesn't change anything about the revelation of God that's in Jesus Christ.

 

[veteran]

In my own interpretation of what it will be like in the end times, is that the hotter will get hotter and the colder will get colder. There will be a greater polarization between the church and the false church/the world. Instead of just two cities, the whole world will be in a sense "Sodom and Gomorrah". In which case there will be no where else to evacuate God's people from the somewhat similar judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah except "upwards". Contextually, it would make sense that God would do this and spare those who call upon His name from the coming judgment, just like he did for Lot.

Yet the Biblical examples show God did not take His people out of the world to protect them from evil, like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Likewise, with our gathering to Christ Jesus when He comes, we will flee to where He returns per Zechariah 14. And that is to Jerusalem on earth, to Zion.

 

[veteran]

As for the need of God's Holy Writ, Apostle Paul said...


2 Tim 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

And this by Apostle Peter...

2 Pet 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)


2 Pet 3:1-2
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
(KJV)


Our Lord Jesus also put His stamp upon the Books He quoted, as did His Apostles also...

Mark 12:26
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(KJV)

Luke 3:4
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(KJV)

Luke 20:42-43
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand,
43 Till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.
(KJV)


Christ came in the volume of The Book. The word Bible is Greek biblos which means 'book'.

Heb 10:7
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God.
(KJV)


After Christ's return, the deaf (spiritually deaf) will hear the words of the Book, and that's about God's Holy Writ. That's going to be a major event for Christ's Millennium reign.

Isa 29:18
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
(KJV)

Isa 34:16
16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for My mouth it hath commanded, and His spirit it hath gathered them.
(KJV)


God's Holy Writ was given through The Holy Spirit, like Apostle Peter said.

As for Bible translations and accuracy from the manuscripts, no matter, since God called learned men to help the layman go back into the manuscripts of His Holy Writ and get closer to the original writings. And the reason why Bible scholars interpret Scripture meaning differently is mostly because even with the original Bible languages, God masked some truths that were meant only for His elect, The Holy Spirit being required to understand it properly.

Also, God gave a truth in many different Books of The Bible in a way that can even get around a weak translation to another language. In that He made sure The Gospel Message is assured, regardless of the language translation (which is why there are so many different language translations of The Bible that have brought many of the nations to The Gospel Message).

We need The Holy Spirit to help us interpret God's Word rightly, but that is only done by Faith on Christ Jesus and then by disciplined Bible study like Christ said to do to become one of His disciples...

John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(KJV)

So I don't know where these 'Holy Spirit only' arguments are coming from, but they are not from our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Joshua David]

Ok... and it also doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't because of our lack of faith... and that was my point... so there's a whole bunch of Jesus attributing lack of His power to lack of our faith... and you brought up there's Paul saying that God didn't remove the messenger from satan when Paul asked Him to because if He did Paul would have been to big of a Rockstar... to me they have nothing to do with each other...

So for me based on the teachings of Christ I personally believe God wants to remove every enemy of His from my life as I'm His child and I believe any servant of satan is an enemy of my Father... and I believe it's my lack of faith that's hindering the fullness of my victory and not a lack of His power or willingness... since Jesus said it is God's will to put every last enemy under His feet... that's my beliefs... and for me personally Paul's belief that God wanted him to have a messenger from satan to knock him off his high horse is between him and God... it's none of my business and it doesn't change anything about the revelation of God that's in Jesus Christ.

So did God put every Enemy of God under the Apostle's feet? Each and every one of them was beaten, thrown in jail and with the one exception of John, they all were horribly martyred. So are you saying that if the apostles would have just had a little more faith, then they would have lived lives of health, wealth, and luxury? Sometimes God places us in trails and tribulations to bring us closer to him, and even sometimes those trials will extend even upto our death, or the death of someone that we care about? Does that mean that we just need a little bit more faith and God would come in and rescue us if we ask?

God answers all of our prayer, it is just sometimes the answer is no, and if that is the answer then it doesn't matter how much faith we have. The answer is no.

Joshua David

 

[Robbie]

haha... I never said anything about wealth and luxury but thanks for your assumptions... and health? duh... He did come and heal the sick, restore sight to the blind, raise the dead, etc... hahaha

And why would God give me trials to bring me closer to Him? I think I'll go try and bring people closer to me by hurting them... haha... hey bro... come here and let me punch you in your face so you'll trust me more... so stupid... God delivers us from trials... He doesn't give us trials... that teaching is so ignorant and blind... it's like who gives a crap if someone delivers you from a trial that they put on you... hey bro I caught your house on fire and then put it out for you... don't you trust me now? no dude... I don't give a crap that you put the fire out... you started it... get away from me weirdo...

And yeah dude... I do think if the disciples had more faith they'd have walked in greater power... I mean how many fricken times did Jesus have to tell them that it was their lack of faith in order for people like you to get it... as far as the people that martyred them that has no relevance to anything... those are people who used their free will to kill... that has no relevance to anyone's faith... it's just testament to their wickedness... do you think those people were obeying God when they killed the apostles? haha...

And get away from me with that sometimes God says no garbage... sounds like that bull I've heard preached by pastors... "sometimes God says no, and sometimes slow, and sometimes go"... haha... please... just because it rhymes doesn't make it right... and just because it seems like God is saying no doesn't mean it's because He is saying no... but I guess it's easier to feel spiritually egotistical when we blame God for where we're at instead of accepting that it's our lack of faith that's hindering us from entering the promise.

Check it dude... Paul got it...

For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [sup][/sup]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet. But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [sup][/sup]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

and like Jesus said, "when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” Chances are pretty slim with people teaching everyone that it's God saying no instead of our lack of faith that's hindering us from entering into the promise land.

it's like Jesus said to Martha after she told Him everything she thought she knew about the resurrection to which Jesus informed her He is the Resurrection Now!!! and then she still wanted to tell Him how it was going to be based on her perception of the body had to be stinking and this and that and He said, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”

I'm so over people telling me not to believe God and accept responsibility for where I'm at... it's like go walk around in the wilderness for 40 years blaming God because He must be saying no if I'm not entering in... haha... forget that... as for me... I'm owning where I'm at... and I'm believe that God want's to bring me fully into His promise on earth as it is in heaven and the more I believe the more I'll see... period.

It's like why would Jesus tell us to pray for something and desire something and to walk in something that God didn't want to give us? haha... so lame...

 

[Foreigner]

And why would God give me trials to bring me closer to Him? I think I'll go try and bring people closer to me by hurting them... haha... hey bro... come here and let me punch you in your face so you'll trust me more... so stupid... God delivers us from trials... He doesn't give us trials... that teaching is so ignorant and blind...

-- When God let Joseph languish in prison for several years, that wasn't a trial, was it?

God allows people to go through trials in order to teach, bring maturity, correct, strengthen, etc.

Apparently you want to split hairs between God giving trials and allowing trials.

Sad, really.

 

[Robbie]

Foreigner guy =) It's so sad to believe my Father doesn't cause me harm but delivers me from it... oh poor me...haha... and dude... did you miss the whole story of Joseph? What his brothers meant for evil God used for good... God didn't hurt Joseph... his brothers did... and God delivered him and blessed him and Joseph ended up ruling over those that caused him harm... so how is it that God was allowing anything other than the fact that people have free will? Were His brothers obeying God when they hurt Joseph? If not why the heck would I put that on God? The only part I see God playing in that is deliverance and blessing...

And yo Joshua... I don't want to go back and forth with you on this... it's a waste of time and energy on both our parts... you think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong... one day we can both stand before our Father and give account and you can say that you didn't overcome because He said no... and I'll confess that I didn't overcome because of my lack of faith and we'll see which one goes over better... haha

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Yet the Biblical examples show God did not take His people out of the world to protect them from evil, like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Likewise, with our gathering to Christ Jesus when He comes, we will flee to where He returns per Zechariah 14. And that is to Jerusalem on earth, to Zion.

As long as I'm where Jesus is and on His side when it happens.

 

[Robbie]

haha... best answer ever Martin... perfectly simple...

 

[Foreigner]

Foreigner guy =) It's so sad to believe my Father doesn't cause me harm but delivers me from it... oh poor me...haha... and dude... did you miss the whole story of Joseph? What his brothers meant for evil God used for good... God didn't hurt Joseph... his brothers did... and God delivered him and blessed him and Joseph ended up ruling over those that caused him harm...

- You just made my point for me.

I do indeed know the entire story of Joseph.

God allowed Joseph to go through the trial of being sold by his brothers into slavery.

God allowed Joseph to spend years languishing in prison.

Obviously God DID allow Joseph to go through trials............unless you really are going to try to say those weren't trials.

He used them to teach Joseph a number of things, to prepare him for what God ultimately had planned for him.

And in the end, after God let Joseph endure these trials, he greatly blessed him.

 

[Rach1370]

-- When God let Joseph languish in prison for several years, that wasn't a trial, was it?

God allows people to go through trials in order to teach, bring maturity, correct, strengthen, etc.

Apparently you want to split hairs between God giving trials and allowing trials.

Sad, really.

You are spot on foreigner. I can honestly say that my illness has brought me much closer to God. You spend years wondering what you've done to deserve this, struggling against the illness itself. But I finally got to the point where I placed all my trust, hope and faith on Him. And looking back on my life before I got sick, I can genuinely say that I probably wouldn't be where I am today had I gone merrily on my way.
It's not easy to be sick, but I don't think God sent it to me as punishment...I think I got sick because it's a fallen world full of fallen people. God, as always, is using evil for wonderful good. That good being my redemption and the support that I am able to give those in a similar position. My sister went through some horrible times a few years back, and while not the same as my trials, because I could talk to her from a position of knowing, she is now drawing close to God as well, and encouraging her daughters to do the same.

I think many people decide that since Jesus healed all those who came to Him while He was on earth, that that must mean He wants to heal everyone! But we must remember that the signs and miracles that Jesus did were primarily to prove that He was the Christ. If He had truly wanted to heal everyone, He could have healed everyone in the land....wouldn't that have made a story!! "Everyone in Israel suddenly well!"
No, we do go through hardships, suffering. Everyone will suffer in their lives, one way or the other. The question is, what we do with this suffering? Do we grip hold of our Lord, as the disciples did as they were murdered one by one, in horrifying ways? Or do we have our faith shaken because we are so sure that Jesus will protect His own from everything?
We must take what the fallen world throws at us and remember that God always uses it for His glory...so why shouldn't we?

 

[Rach1370]

But they use the bible to support their beliefs and actions.

People will find and twist everything in scripture to support what they want to believe. Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, those who believe that salvation only comes through speaking tongues, being baptised, following the old laws.
Let me ask you this: these people who say that I bring my illness upon myself, who say I have no faith, who say that if you say the right things God has to give you what you want, like you just uttered a magic incantation....do you really think that's how God operates? Do you think it's loving for a prosperity gospel pastor to divorce his wife and let her die alone when she gets cancer? It happened. Think about their agenda. Does any of have anything to do with God? His love, His work amongst his people? Nope, it's about these people getting everything they want...better cars, bigger houses and tv's. A holiday house, designer clothes, private tuition for their kids. Do they use the money they have for charity? Do they use their money to really love people, or just themselves, just to make themselves look good? These people use people and love money, not the other way around, and we know this because if one doesn't fit their expectations of what a Christian should be (healthy and wealthy) they make you feel lower and more sinful then they are. I even had one man say to me that I bought my illness upon myself, and if I so obviously enjoyed being unwell and stymieing Jesus' healing, why don't I just go out and stab myself with an AIDS needle. Do you think that's in the Bible?

What would you say to those believers that do not have bibles or are blind? Would you tell them until they get a bible that they can read that they are going nowhere with God?

See, this is part of it, I think. We have such ease of access to scripture while other don't. So why don't we want to read it???
And no, I wouldn't say to those who don't have a copy that they are doomed to go nowhere. But how much easier is it to get somewhere when you do have a map? Why do you think organisations work so hard to get Bibles everywhere? And to these people, every single word that they are able to read about their God is miraculous! They drink it in and treasure it, just as we should. To these people their Bible, if they have one, is the most important possession they have. And yet we, in our arrogance, think we don't need it, that God is our rudder and we should just go where our conscience tells us, and leave our map on the bookshelf. I think its sad, because God gave us His Bible for a reason...nothing He does is without worth or purpose, don't you think?

 

[Robbie]

The only way God had any responsibility for Joseph being in prison is if God told Joseph's brothers to do what they did to him... and if that was the case God told people to be unrighteous? haha... I don't think so... The truth is the brothers rebelled against God when they attacked Joseph and despite their wickedness God still delivered Joseph and blessed Him... like Joseph said... what they meant for evil God used for good... when we disobey God it isn't Him allowing us to do something... it's us using the loving gift of free will to rebel against Him... that's not Him allowing us... that's us taking advantage of His love...

God doesn't allow us to go through trials... He delivers us from trials even to the point that when people come against His kids with evil intention He can turn it around for our own good...

Thinking that God is in some way responsible for trials is like saying God is in some way responsible for the consequences of the fall of man... and that's a bunch of garbage... in spite of man's wickedness and rebellion God still pours out His love and delivers us... that's what increases faith... thinking we're in some way glorifying God by proclaiming that we're still loving Him while He's hurting us doesn't glorify God... it glorifies us... like a dog thinking it's glorifying it's master by licking his boot while the master's kicking it...

 

[Robbie]

I know I'm pushing this but this is one thing that pisses me off the same way I'd be pissed if someone said my Mom allowed someone to hurt me when I was a child when I know she only loves me and would never allow anyone to hurt me... to me I feel like people are talking trash on my Father when they say He allows evil... the truth is if everyone submitted themselves to God right now I'm 100% positive there would be no trials or evil but like Paul said all would be subject to Him and God would be all in all... trials since the beginning have always been the result of our Father's creation rebelling against Him... and I'll stand up for Him 100% that nothing evil comes from His Will.