The Rapture

[Joshua David]

The scriptures tell us many, many times who God has intended to lead us and I'm sure that it is in your bible and if you need, I would be happy to them to you.

Are these the same scriptures that you say should not be our guide?

Just wondering?

Joshua David

 

[jiggyfly]

Are these the same scriptures that you say should not be our guide?

Just wondering?

Joshua David

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The scriptures confirm that HolySpirit is our guide. Tis why He was sent.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

In my own interpretation of what it will be like in the end times, is that the hotter will get hotter and the colder will get colder. There will be a greater polarization between the church and the false church/the world. Instead of just two cities, the whole world will be in a sense "Sodom and Gomorrah". In which case there will be no where else to evacuate God's people from the somewhat similar judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah except "upwards". Contextually, it would make sense that God would do this and spare those who call upon His name from the coming judgment, just like he did for Lot.

 

[Rach1370]

Nope. Catholics rely on scripture and Tradition to describe Purgatory. Protestants do the same with Rapture doctrine.

Hey Aspen! The biggest issue I have with 'purgatory' is that basically the idea teaches a 'Jesus plus' doctrine. It says that Jesus work, on the cross and then rising from the grave was not enough to ensure our salvation. Purgatory insists that you must spend time there working off sins that the Bible clearly tells us that Jesus took upon Himself. Basically the doctrine of purgatory makes Jesus a liar when He said "It is finished". We know the bible does not lie, or contradict itself, and Jesus quite clearly said these words. He didn't say "Wow, almost done, now you just have to spend a few years after death working the rest off, and then you get a pass!" Finished. Done, no more....wonderful!!
Paul said that to die is to be with the Lord, not that it would mean work camp for an extended period, then the Lord. Please be careful friend, that church "tradition' doesn't tear you away from the wonderful gift that Jesus gave us! Just think what a gift is!! If you gave your wife a gift of a scrubbing brush and then pointed her towards the sink full of dirty dishes....it's not much of a gift is it?? Our Lord gives perfect gifts, not an incomplete one that requires us to assemble it!

As far as the Rapture goes, I grant you that many Protestants take verses and read into them wildly! So when someone says the word 'Rapture' people automatically jump to people disappearing everywhere, like it will be a 'what on earth is going on' moment when Jesus is plainly visible in the sky! All I am saying and picturing when I speak of it, is that wonderful time at Jesus' return. The Bible clearly says we will be lifted up to meet Jesus in the air. Call it what you want (I know many do!!) but I just long for it, should I be alive when it happens!!

 

[Joshua David]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The scriptures confirm that HolySpirit is our guide. Tis why He was sent.

And so we should allow the scriptures to guide us to this truth? right? or should we? What say you?

I just find it ironic that you use the same scriptures that you say should not be our guide to prove that the scriptures should not be our guide.

Look at it this way... there have been times that I have thought that God was leading me in a certain direction. It seemed right to me. I come to find out LATER that God was not in it at all. Do I blame God for this? Of course not. Now there have been many instances where I felt the Spirit leading me, and it was God. Either leading me to make a choice this way or that, or to say what I felt that He had laid on my heart to say.

But I find that his Word will ALWAYS line up with his spirit. So that if I am unsure of where he is leading me, I can always find a direction that is in line with the will of God in the word of God. But when I trust in what I feel is the Will of God, or what seems to me as the Will of God, then sometimes I get it right, and sometimes I get it wrong. Now I will freely admit that the fault lies with me. I use the Word of God to try to get as much 'me' as I can out of the equation...

Prov 14:12 [sup]12[/sup] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Does that make sense?

Joshua David

 

[Rach1370]

-- There is no scripture that supports purgatory. The justification is equal to being told that if you look at the clouds, close one eye, squint hard with the other, and use the imagination God has given you, ta-dah, the cloud is a pony.

Foreigner, you have such a way with words!!

 

[Robbie]

I get what Jiggyfly is saying...

Here's a question I asked myself back in the day and the conclusion I came to...

Why does one person read the bible and find reasons to condemn, hate, kill, judge, etc... And another person reads the bible and finds reason to love, forgive, help, accept, etc...

The conclusion I came to is that it really comes down to what's inside a person that matters... that's why the pharisees who had the scriptures memorized still didn't have God's Word in them and they actually found reasons in the scripture to kill Jesus... because they had scriptures but they wouldn't receive Him... reading the bible isn't receiving the Word... accepting Jesus as Lord is... because He's the Living Word that is manifested in the flesh... not a book...

So the bottom line is if you have Him you'll read the scriptures and He'll open them up to you the way He did when He walked with the disciples on that road after His resurrection... and if we don't have Him no matter how much we study and read it'll be worthless and if anything we'll be worst off because we'll be filled with darkness that we're convinced is light the same way the pharisees were... thinking we're offering God service by hating, judging, killing, etc...

I believe God is Love... and that's why we know everyone who's taught by Jesus/God because they Love...

 

[Rach1370]

And so we should allow the scriptures to guide us to this truth? right? or should we? What say you?

Hey Joshua! I think you're spot on. Because here's the deal. How many people have thought they had the Holy Spirit leading them....they grab a whole heap of people to follow them, only for those poor people to find out (or worse, never find out) that it wasn't the Holy Spirit leading their leader, but something sinister.
If those people had checked everything their leader told them against the scripture, they would have discovered that he was a wolf.

So should we follow the Holy Spirit, and allow Him to rule our lives, to guide us and convict us? Absolutely!! And every single day we should read our Bible, confirming everything we hear within our hearts, and indeed strengthening what God whispers to us. The Bible tells us to do this, is is not a sin to read and confirm, it is wise.

Everything the Holy Spirit will tell us, teach us, guide us to, will line up perfectly with Scripture...every time. It's a bit like the OT prophet deal. They had to be 100% accurate on everything, or they got stoned for being a false prophet. A true messenger from God was always accurate. The Bible will always confirm what the Spirit tells us and it's really, really dangerous not to check....to just assume that what is leading you is from God. Satan likes nothing better than to lead the children of God astray.

 

[Joshua David]

So should we follow the Holy Spirit, and allow Him to rule our lives, to guide us and convict us? Absolutely!! And every single day we should read our Bible, confirming everything we hear within our hearts, and indeed strengthening what God whispers to us. The Bible tells us to do this, is is not a sin to read and confirm, it is wise.

Everything the Holy Spirit will tell us, teach us, guide us to, will line up perfectly with Scripture...every time. It's a bit like the OT prophet deal. They had to be 100% accurate on everything, or they got stoned for being a false prophet. A true messenger from God was always accurate. The Bible will always confirm what the Spirit tells us and it's really, really dangerous not to check....to just assume that what is leading you is from God. Satan likes nothing better than to lead the children of God astray.

This is the way that I really look at it. In the Old testament we find that God decreed that "In the mouth of two witnesses let a thing be established." God has used this rule of declaration and confirmation many times in the scriptures, as well as in my own life. I see the Holy spirit being one witness of his Will, and I see the scriptures as being the other witness.

My problem with what Jiggy was saying was not that I disagreed with the idea that we need to be led by the Holy Spirit, but with his contention that we are not to be led by the scriptures. I believe that a person needs both, for one confirms the other, and without both, you are easily led astray as both Rach and Robbie pointed out.

If you totally rely on what you 'feel' the Holy Spirit is leading you, then you can be led astray by your own heart. When you study the scriptures without the guidance of the Holy Spirit then you become led astray by your own intelligence. The only way to really understand what the Will of God is, is to have the two witnesses, the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. ( and even then it is possible to get it wrong if we aren't careful )

Joshua David

 

[Robbie]

Actually... what I was pointing out is that we're lead astray by what's in us... because if what's in us is darkness... even the scriptures will lead us astray... and in an even worse way because we'll be deceived into thinking that because our understanding is coming from the bible we must be right... the way the pharisees thought they were right when they killed Jesus...

 

[Joshua David]

Actually... what I was pointing out is that we're lead astray by what's in us... because if what's in us is darkness... even the scriptures will lead us astray... and in an even worse way because we'll be deceived into thinking that because our understanding is coming from the bible we must be right... the way the pharisees thought they were right when they killed Jesus...

So then what do you use to guide you Robbie?

Joshua David

 

[Robbie]

Being in relationship and submitted to Him in me... and when I'm not doing what's right I know I'm not... because I don't do wrong when I am... does that make sense?

Maybe this will help you understand my beliefs...

Back in the day I read this and it really hit me... the pharisees were freaking out on Jesus about the sabbath based on scripture... and He said...

“I did one work, and you all marvel. Moses therefore gave you circumcision, and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? [sup][/sup]Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

What that means to me is do what's right...

For instance we all know stealing is wrong and if you're unable to think outside the Law every single person who steals should be put in jail...

But like the proverb says, "People do not despise a thief If he steals to satisfy himself when he is starving." so maybe we don't just put everyone in jail because they stole but we have compassion depending on the situation... we don't judge according to appearance... we use Love and Compassion as our guide... I mean I see that as the way Jesus lives... how may times did the pharisees want to condemn based on scripture and Jesus acted differently based on compassion, love, and understanding...

Now I found scriptural support for you because it seems like you need that in order to recognize it... but to me even if that stuff wasn't in the bible it would still be right because what's right is right...

I know that's scary to accept... especially if every week you're taught by a man that your heart is still wicked even after Jesus has entered it... but Jesus said that Us who believe in Him... that out of our hearts would flow rivers of Living Water... and I believe that... not what men say...

I understand that is written in the bible... but I didn't need to read it in a book in order to believe it... I could have been told it by word of mouth and my heart would still testify to it as being truth... because the Words of Jesus being in the bible don't make them authoritative... the Words of Jesus are authoritative because He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords... period...

 

[Rach1370]

I understand that is written in the bible... but I didn't need to read it in a book in order to believe it... I could have been told it by word of mouth and my heart would still testify to it as being truth... because the Words of Jesus being in the bible don't make them authoritative... the Words of Jesus are authoritative because He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords... period...

And those of us who live 2000 years after Jesus and the words He spoke, know of these words, because of this book!!

If you're one of these people whose conscience is very much in tune with the Holy Spirit, then that's wonderful Robbie! But the mistake is in thinking that everyone has such an honest core. Even people who are truly saved will have trouble with their sin nature. It's sad, it's tragic, but it's true. We can only expect that our sanctification process will end in true perfection once Christ returns.

Consider this: the prosperity gospel. Why do you think people like Benny Hinn get such a huge following? It doesn't take much digging to find that the man's salvation is in huge doubt. But so many people flock to this gospel...why? Because people, even people who recognise Christ as Lord, want..... They want wealth, health, possessions. They feel entitled to these things, they're good people right? God owes them for being good, right? They've said the right things, done the right things, had the right faith...that means God will deliver, right? And if one doesn't have what they decide a Christian should have, they label you false, weak, not Christian enough.

These people believe in Jesus, but their inner hearts crave things....things that really don't reflect the glory of God. There are many other examples as well. People might know what's right, deep down, but they want so much they convince themselves that what they crave is God telling them it is just and right.

So the book we read, full of the Words of our Saviour, they are like the path we must take....the map to show us the way. The Holy Spirit within us, that's what gets us there, step by step. He is the food, the rest, the willpower to put one step in front of the other. Both are needed, I believe, or you end up going nowhere or going the wrong way.

 

[Robbie]

I don't have any judgment about Benny Hinn because I don't know the dude and honestly what I've felt about most pastor's that I do know who talk trash on Benny Hinn, or Rick Warren, or Joel Olsteen is that it seems to me more like jealousy over success... than concern over doctrine... because I don't hear that much of a difference between what any of them say... my experience is every church I've ever gone to the pastor says the same things which is basically if you don't give money you're gonna be less blessed... and if you give a lot you're gonna prosper... it all sounds hypoctritical to me when they judge each other because I don't hear that much of a difference in any of it.... what I personally believe is you can't serve God and Money and freely you recieve so freely you give so I don't really agree with how any of them do it... but that's between them and God and just my opinion and I really shouldn't even be talking about it because like I said what they do is between them and God... it's up to me to do right... what they do is on them...

As far as the other stuff... I think the most important thing in all of it is that Christ is in us... cause like Paul says if Christ isn't in us we're not His... Paul didn't say keep this letter I'm writing to you that says, "If Christ isn't in you, you're not His" because if you read this letter over and over that's having Him in you... Paul's letter simply testifies to the reality that Christ should be in us... and He said if Christ isn't in us, we're not His. So I believe that it's not memorizing a book that makes us belong to Christ... it's the Living Christ in us... and if people don't have that I think it's better to realize that when they realize they don't have the mind of Christ than to think they have Jesus because they've memorized a bunch of scriptures the same way the pharisees did when they really didnt have anything but darkness disguised as light.

But it's all good... I would never tell anyone to believe what I believe... I just share my beliefs... if you believe different you should follow your conscience and work out your own salvation... and if you feel you need the bible to keep you in check then you should read it every day as to the Lord... I read the bible every day for a really long time and I'm actually super glad I did... not so much because it keeps me in check about what's going on inside me (The Holy Spirit does that) but more importantly because I know what it says so people can't use it to manipulate me... and we all know the enemy loves to use scripture to manipulate us... so I say keep on reading it... but please... READ IT FOR YOURSELF!!!

Back in the day I'd hear a lot of pastors quote the verse, "Don't lean on your own understanding but trust in the Lord with all your heart" in reference to the bible and they'd act like what that meant was, "Don't read the bible for yourself but let me tell you what it's really saying" hahahahhahahaha... so glad I read it for myself and trusted the Lord in me to open the scriptures because straight up what they taught me was a bunch of bull...

Blessings...

 

[Rach1370]

I don't have any judgment about Benny Hinn because I don't know the dude and honestly what I've felt about most pastor's that I do know who talk trash on Benny Hinn, or Rick Warren, or Joel Olsteen is that it seems to me more like jealousy over success... than concern over doctrine... because I don't hear that much of a difference between what any of them say... my experience is every church I've ever gone to the pastor says the same things which is basically if you don't give money you're gonna be less blessed... and if you give a lot you're gonna prosper... it all sounds hypoctritical to me when they judge each other because I don't hear that much of a difference in any of it.... what I personally believe is you can't serve God and Money and freely you recieve so freely you give so I don't really agree with how any of them do it... but that's between them and God and just my opinion and I really shouldn't even be talking about it because like I said what they do is between them and God... it's up to me to do right... what they do is on them...

Hey Robbie. I've always admired how you are free with your love. It's something more people should have. But we are told to be discerning. The thing with pastors like Benny Hinn )and this is what i've read and seen him actually saying) is that they are not loving. I don't have an issue with him because of jealousy. I don't care a jot if a Christian is wealthy or not, that's between them and God, and I'm happy that some of my brothers and sisters don't have to worry financially. But as someone who has struggled for over half my life with a chronic illness, having reached a point where I've accepted it and even give glory to God for anything that brings me closer to Him and humbles me....well, you can see why I may feel that Mr Hinn is proclaiming judgement on me. He says I don't have enough faith, I say that my God is sovereign and that I trust all things to work for His benefit and glory. Hinn says if we have enough faith we will be wealthy...I say all wealth belongs to God in the first place and I'm grateful for the amount and provision He gives me.
I believe there is a difference between judging a person, and being discerning. Benny Hinn teaches a doctrine that would make me feel like a lesser Christian, to feel that my lack of faith is holding an all mighty God back. He would even go so far as to tell me (and I do not make this up) that I have bought this illness upon myself...that it is my own doing that my life continues like this. Do you see how in no way does any of this touch on the love and grace of Jesus? This message would turn God into a genie...do the right things, rub it the right way, and you get exactly what you want. It's all about them and what they can get from God, not about the wonderful thing God has done for them.

As far as the other stuff... I think the most important thing in all of it is that Christ is in us... cause like Paul says if Christ isn't in us we're not His... Paul didn't say keep this letter I'm writing to you that says, "If Christ isn't in you, you're not His" because if you read this letter over and over that's having Him in you... Paul's letter simply testifies to the reality that Christ should be in us... and He said if Christ isn't in us, we're not His. So I believe that it's not memorizing a book that makes us belong to Christ... it's the Living Christ in us... and if people don't have that I think it's better to realize that when they realize they don't have the mind of Christ than to think they have Jesus because they've memorized a bunch of scriptures the same way the pharisees did when they really didnt have anything but darkness disguised as light.

Yes, Christ is within us, and this is a tremendous gift that I think Christians don't live the full potential. But consider this...these words of Paul gave us joy when we first read them. They gave us an understanding that was new. Sure we may have felt a change within us when we gave our life to Jesus, but there is so much to learn in the Bible...so many ways to grow in love and knowledge that the Bible reveals to us. This is precious!! And despite the fact that becoming a Christian is the most incredible thing you will ever do with you life, it's not an easy journey. So many passages in the Bible comfort us, and speak to us anew. God is forever sharing something new through our study of scripture, and it's Christ living within us that makes that new discovery sing!

But it's all good... I would never tell anyone to believe what I believe... I just share my beliefs... if you believe different you should follow your conscience and work out your own salvation... and if you feel you need the bible to keep you in check then you should read it every day as to the Lord... I read the bible every day for a really long time and I'm actually super glad I did... not so much because it keeps me in check about what's going on inside me (The Holy Spirit does that) but more importantly because I know what it says so people can't use it to manipulate me... and we all know the enemy loves to use scripture to manipulate us... so I say keep on reading it... but please... READ IT FOR YOURSELF!!

My salvation is already won, thanks! By my sanctification is, as always, a work in process! I'm in no way (and hope you don't think I mean this) saying that the Bible holds some god like properties, that we should study it so we may worship it as part of our religion. But if we truly believe that God had people write down what He told them to; Spirit breathed and all of it profitable, why wouldn't we want to constantly pour over it! People all over the world flock to what they consider holy relics, believing erroneously that they have power. But we have in easy possession a love letter from our God! If we keep and re read a love letter from our spouse...not because we can't remember what it says, or because we need to memorize it...but because it warms our hearts to know that they cared enough to give it to us; why wouldn't we do the same for Gods letter to us?

Back in the day I'd hear a lot of pastors quote the verse, "Don't lean on your own understanding but trust in the Lord with all your heart" in reference to the bible and they'd act like what that meant was, "Don't read the bible for yourself but let me tell you what it's really saying" hahahahhahahaha... so glad I read it for myself and trusted the Lord in me to open the scriptures because straight up what they taught me was a bunch of bull...

I think any good pastor who said that would have meant "don't take what I say for granted, check everything I say in the scriptures". And that's the simple truth....We are told to go to Church, but sadly many pastors do not teach the word of God. So how can we tell? Gut instinct (aka the Holy Spirit!!) and of course checking it against God's word!

 

[aspen]

Hey Aspen! The biggest issue I have with 'purgatory' is that basically the idea teaches a 'Jesus plus' doctrine. It says that Jesus work, on the cross and then rising from the grave was not enough to ensure our salvation. Purgatory insists that you must spend time there working off sins that the Bible clearly tells us that Jesus took upon Himself. Basically the doctrine of purgatory makes Jesus a liar when He said "It is finished". We know the bible does not lie, or contradict itself, and Jesus quite clearly said these words. He didn't say "Wow, almost done, now you just have to spend a few years after death working the rest off, and then you get a pass!" Finished. Done, no more....wonderful!!
Paul said that to die is to be with the Lord, not that it would mean work camp for an extended period, then the Lord. Please be careful friend, that church "tradition' doesn't tear you away from the wonderful gift that Jesus gave us! Just think what a gift is!! If you gave your wife a gift of a scrubbing brush and then pointed her towards the sink full of dirty dishes....it's not much of a gift is it?? Our Lord gives perfect gifts, not an incomplete one that requires us to assemble it!

As far as the Rapture goes, I grant you that many Protestants take verses and read into them wildly! So when someone says the word 'Rapture' people automatically jump to people disappearing everywhere, like it will be a 'what on earth is going on' moment when Jesus is plainly visible in the sky! All I am saying and picturing when I speak of it, is that wonderful time at Jesus' return. The Bible clearly says we will be lifted up to meet Jesus in the air. Call it what you want (I know many do!!) but I just long for it, should I be alive when it happens!!

Rach,

I think you may misunderstand the doctrine of Purgatory. I notice that you seem to understand that the Rapture is often misunderstood by people - I think Purgatory is misunderstood as well. Since this is not a thread about Purgatory, I will not hijack the topic with verses and catholic dogma.

 

[Robbie]

Hey Rach... just so you know I don't really like to communicate or read the bible by breaking apart paragraphs as I feel things tend to lose context... I've seen to many times where when people do that people end up confused and in huge arguments... and I hate arguments so if it's cool let's just keep the conversation as in context as possible... I have no interest in proving you wrong... just sharing beliefs and trying to understand each other...

So that sucks to hear about your illness... I hate disease = ( but think for a moment... and I'm not saying this is right but just a "what if". What if some pastor (Let's not use Benny Hinn's name since it seems to bring up to many preconceived judgments) was right and it is our lack of faith that was hindering us from being healed? I mean you never read once when it comes to Jesus that He wasn't willing to heal... it was always attributed to our lack of faith... I mean that might makes us feel like bad people but isn't that already been proven by the Law? Now I would never personally go to any pastor ever again whether it be Benny Hinn or Chuck Smith or the Pope because I don't need them... I know God... but I don't want to judge some pastor because what if he is right... what if it is our lack of faith? What if he's actually telling the truth and if people simply accepted responsibility they could be healed and by judging him and telling everyone that's a lie I was actually working against the truth and God because I cared more about the person feeling like I was being nice than I did about them? I'm not saying that in any way is the case with you or anyone else... but what if? That's why it's safer for me not to judge... as far as what Paul had to say... I agree with Him... I feel the same way... but I don't feel any more joy out of reading it in a book written by some guy I don't even know than I do when it's testified to by a person I know or more importantly when I see it with my own eyes.. actually far less... and I don't really see the bible as a love letter... I see Christ as a love letter not written on a piece of paper or on biblegateway.com but on people's hearts... and I told you what the pastor said... I'm not some stupid person that's unable to comprehend someone speaking but I tell you what the pastor said and you assume I'm wrong? Come on Rach... that makes me feel kind of insulted... like you automatically take the side of the pastor based on assumptions which means you must think pretty low of me? Honestly that's a little frustrating...

So let's think about what each other is saying for a bit... I don't want to go back and forth as that tend to not go so well when it comes to religion or politics... so be blessed sister and I hope the best for you and we'll talk again maybe in a couple days...

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Rach... just so you know I don't really like to communicate or read the bible by breaking apart paragraphs as I feel things tend to lose context... I've seen to many times where when people do that people end up confused and in huge arguments... and I hate arguments so if it's cool let's just keep the conversation as in context as possible... I have no interest in proving you wrong... just sharing beliefs and trying to understand each other...

So that sucks to hear about your illness... I hate disease = ( but think for a moment... and I'm not saying this is right but just a "what if". What if some pastor (Let's not use Benny Hinn's name since it seems to bring up to many preconceived judgments) was right and it is our lack of faith that was hindering us from being healed? I mean you never read once when it comes to Jesus that He wasn't willing to heal... it was always attributed to our lack of faith... I mean that might makes us feel like bad people but isn't that already been proven by the Law? Now I would never personally go to any pastor ever again whether it be Benny Hinn or Chuck Smith or the Pope because I don't need them... I know God... but I don't want to judge some pastor because what if he is right... what if it is our lack of faith? What if he's actually telling the truth and if people simply accepted responsibility they could be healed and by judging him and telling everyone that's a lie I was actually working against the truth and God because I cared more about the person feeling like I was being nice than I did about them? I'm not saying that in any way is the case with you or anyone else... but what if? That's why it's safer for me not to judge... as far as what Paul had to say... I agree with Him... I feel the same way... but I don't feel any more joy out of reading it in a book written by some guy I don't even know than I do when it's testified to by a person I know or more importantly when I see it with my own eyes.. actually far less... and I don't really see the bible as a love letter... I see Christ as a love letter not written on a piece of paper or on biblegateway.com but on people's hearts... and I told you what the pastor said... I'm not some stupid person that's unable to comprehend someone speaking but I tell you what the pastor said and you assume I'm wrong? Come on Rach... that makes me feel kind of insulted... like you automatically take the side of the pastor based on assumptions which means you must think pretty low of me? Honestly that's a little frustrating...

So let's think about what each other is saying for a bit... I don't want to go back and forth as that tend to not go so well when it comes to religion or politics... so be blessed sister and I hope the best for you and we'll talk again maybe in a couple days...

Ok. I feel like you're getting a little mad at me, and that wasn't my intention. Sorry. And I'll reply in a block as you like, even though I find it much easier to address things bit by bit.
Firstly, it's not my lack of faith that is holding the Lord back from healing me. I have complete faith that He could, should He choose to, and I await and pray for the day He will. But everyday that I wake up unwell, I choose to see it as an opportunity God has given to me. An opportunity to draw closer to Him, to help others in a similar situation. I know I have many things to learn, and that my faith is wanting yet, by I have total faith that I am exactly where my Lord wants me. And it just plain hurts to have anyone claiming Jesus as their Lord, to say that I am a stain on Jesus' master healing plan.
As far as getting joy out of reading the Bible, I suppose that is entirely personal and up to you. And yes, seeing the Love of Christ, and His obvious working in others lives, it's incredible! Knowing we have the Holy Spirit as helpers, and living daily doing our best to listen to His voice within us, is an amazing and constant thing. I'm not detracting form that at all. I think all I'm saying is this: many people think they are doing as you do...living by the code Jesus has written upon their hearts, holding themselves accountable to the voice within telling them what is true and what is best. And sometimes, sometimes this is works out, because Jesus is truly guiding them. But consider those who believe as you do, but have a darker force guiding them, be it the enemy or just deep rooted sin they have not put to death. It is possible to grieve and quench the Holy Spirit, and sadly people do that. Can you not see all the 'religions' in the world that have done just that? Muhammad thought he could do just that...he took the basics out of our Bible, used our roots, and has created a false god that will see millions perish. We need, as Christians, to be able to say...Yes, follow the Holy Spirit, and here's how you know it is the Holy Spirit. We know it, by what God has told us in His word.
I know you think I'm going at this like a dog with a bone, and truly Robbie, I don't want to fight with you. You're a dear man who always posts with love and humour. I'm just worried that if you dismiss the important foundation of Gods word, that He has expressly given us, then one day something may be able to lead you astray. I so much don't want that for any brother or sister in Christ.
As far as you thinking I was insulting you, please don't! Perhaps I didn't say it as well as I should have. I don't question what you heard, indeed many people come out with "traditional sayings" and have no sweet idea what they should mean! I know, myself, of Godly pastors, who say things like this, and they mean for us to check the Bible, and not just take what they're saying for face value.

I'll drop this now, as, like you, I'm not wishing for an argument. Please take it as it's meant, as concern. It's harder to let something casually drop when you feel real concern for the subject.
Be well, and surf safe!

Rach,

I think you may misunderstand the doctrine of Purgatory. I notice that you seem to understand that the Rapture is often misunderstood by people - I think Purgatory is misunderstood as well. Since this is not a thread about Purgatory, I will not hijack the topic with verses and catholic dogma.

OK!

 

[Robbie]

Nah Rach... I wasn't getting mad at you... it's just been my experience that these topics can cause people to be really defensive and I wanted to make sure neither of us got off on that foot because I want to talk to you and hear you and do my best to relate to you and understand you... and I can tell by your response you want the same = ) That makes me feel great... I mean anyone can have a compassionate conversation with someone they agree with but with God's love I believe we can have compassion and acceptance even if we don't see eye to eye on everything and I feel that's a great way to glorify the Lord on here... so thanks for your positive attitude and living that = ) And in no way do I think you're a stain or anything else mean... I believe you're just like me and the rest of God's kids here on earth which is we're His beloved family but I also believe we have an enemy who wants to kill us and poor out every other negative experience on us and I also believe that as our faith increases every last enemy will be put under Christ's feet on earth as it is in heaven. His feet being the lowest person in His body... that being all of us... the body of Christ.

So for me personally I'm going to just be open to growing in faith and expect as I grow in faith to experience greater victory in my life... haha... it's funny but back in the day I actually quit praying for increased faith because the pastor told me when you do God gives you trials and it scared me... I've found that to be the biggest lie... it's like who cares if God delivers me from trials if He's the one giving them to me... that's like me trying to earn someone's trust by punching them in the eye and then giving them an ice pack... what I've come to believe is that the trials I experience come from darkness and the absence of God and the way God increases my faith is by delivering me from that darkness and godlessness... so now I pray increase my faith the way You do... by proving faithful again and again... and I pray that He increases all our faiths that way because nothing feels better than God proving faithful... and us feeling loved by our Father.

We'll chat more laters Rach = )

PS: I think you're a good person so don't let any thought in your head tell you otherwise... I also think it's great you're staying positive through your health issues... my wife also had some health issues over the past year... she was diagnosed with epilepsy and we to have looked for and found the positive even though she hasn't had total victory... and even though Michelle knows she's an amazingly beautiful person who God loves we still welcome God's power to set her completely free and if that requires an increase in our faith we welcome that increase... all to His glory.

 

[jiggyfly]

And so we should allow the scriptures to guide us to this truth? right? or should we? What say you?

I just find it ironic that you use the same scriptures that you say should not be our guide to prove that the scriptures should not be our guide.

Look at it this way... there have been times that I have thought that God was leading me in a certain direction. It seemed right to me. I come to find out LATER that God was not in it at all. Do I blame God for this? Of course not. Now there have been many instances where I felt the Spirit leading me, and it was God. Either leading me to make a choice this way or that, or to say what I felt that He had laid on my heart to say.

But I find that his Word will ALWAYS line up with his spirit. So that if I am unsure of where he is leading me, I can always find a direction that is in line with the will of God in the word of God. But when I trust in what I feel is the Will of God, or what seems to me as the Will of God, then sometimes I get it right, and sometimes I get it wrong. Now I will freely admit that the fault lies with me. I use the Word of God to try to get as much 'me' as I can out of the equation...

Prov 14:12 [sup]12[/sup] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Does that make sense?

Joshua David

Well ask HolySpirit to give you understanding of it then.

And those of us who live 2000 years after Jesus and the words He spoke, know of these words, because of this book!!

If you're one of these people whose conscience is very much in tune with the Holy Spirit, then that's wonderful Robbie! But the mistake is in thinking that everyone has such an honest core. Even people who are truly saved will have trouble with their sin nature. It's sad, it's tragic, but it's true. We can only expect that our sanctification process will end in true perfection once Christ returns.

Consider this: the prosperity gospel. Why do you think people like Benny Hinn get such a huge following? It doesn't take much digging to find that the man's salvation is in huge doubt. But so many people flock to this gospel...why? Because people, even people who recognise Christ as Lord, want..... They want wealth, health, possessions. They feel entitled to these things, they're good people right? God owes them for being good, right? They've said the right things, done the right things, had the right faith...that means God will deliver, right? And if one doesn't have what they decide a Christian should have, they label you false, weak, not Christian enough.

These people believe in Jesus, but their inner hearts crave things....things that really don't reflect the glory of God. There are many other examples as well. People might know what's right, deep down, but they want so much they convince themselves that what they crave is God telling them it is just and right.

But they use the bible to support their beliefs and actions.

So the book we read, full of the Words of our Saviour, they are like the path we must take....the map to show us the way. The Holy Spirit within us, that's what gets us there, step by step. He is the food, the rest, the willpower to put one step in front of the other. Both are needed, I believe, or you end up going nowhere or going the wrong way.

What would you say to those believers that do not have bibles or are blind? Would you tell them until they get a bible that they can read that they are going nowhere with God?