The replacement for Judas

[lforrest]

It is my belief that the apostles should not have tried to fulfill Psalm 109:8 as they did in Acts 1:20-26. By doing this they forced God to choose between two of Jesus’ followers, but it would actually be Paul who would eventually fulfill this scripture.

Has anyone but Jesus ever knowingly fulfilled the word of God?

I'm pretty sure the casting of lots was a valid option for them at the time, but only because they didn't yet receive the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

 

[Eltanin]

This is really a very interesting topic... and one I have considered myself...

I could offer the clean and clear cut, common answer that God wouldn't allow a man to take the position of Judas if it was not his place to take... And since Paul became the spokesman for the New Testament, then all is as God wanted.

... But this is a debate forum, so I will be honest with some of my doubts and concerns...

I don't necessarily believe things are clear cut in this issue. Since I believe God does not negate humanity's free will, I sometimes suspect that the Roman influence on early Christianity and the Biblical Canon was somewhat biased on the side of Paul... and that the men who decided how Christianity should organize inflicted their bias upon the following generations.

If you look at the early church, you see where Peter and Paul have their schism (James being on the sidelines)... but you only get Paul's side of the story... People conjecture as to Peter's motives, but the Bible isn't clear on that. So all we know is that Paul called Peter out about separating himself when other Jews arrived... Paul alludes to what he feels Peter's motives are, but without the inclusion of Peter's side of the story, we can't know for sure...

I have the impression that some of Jesus' Disciples' letters were left out of the canon, because they still followed their Jewish heritage, and some people took that to mean they were imposing their customs into the faith... Which may not be entirely wrong... but I just can't help but wonder about the other side of the story when I read passages such as Galatians 2.

I honestly think this is a complicated question, because I see the need for an Apostle who is not of Jewish origin, since Christianity is meant for all people. I do not see anything wrong with the teachings of Paul, and I think that he was indeed Divinely inspired. I still wonder at him having more face-time in the Bible than Jesus though. We know more of Paul's exploits than we do of Jesus'.

I just wish we were given more witness of men who walked physically with Jesus. I think the men Jesus personally chose to pass on his first hand accounts were probably better candidates than a man chosen by lots, or a man venerated by Empirical Christians... but this just me, and I admit I am fallible.

 

[Episkopos]

It is my belief that the apostles should not have tried to fulfill Psalm 109:8 as they did in Acts 1:20-26. By doing this they forced God to choose between two of Jesus’ followers, but it would actually be Paul who would eventually fulfill this scripture.

Has anyone but Jesus ever knowingly fulfilled the word of God?

I'm pretty sure the casting of lots was a valid option for them at the time, but only because they didn't yet receive the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

Interesting points! We know that Judas is certainly not one of the 12 founding apostles of the church. Perhaps Paul replaces Judas. Perhaps not. There were more like 120 apostles at the beginning.

Have you considered Barnabas?

 

[Selene]

[sub]

It is my belief that the apostles should not have tried to fulfill Psalm 109:8 as they did in Acts 1:20-26. By doing this they forced God to choose between two of Jesus’ followers, but it would actually be Paul who would eventually fulfill this scripture.

Has anyone but Jesus ever knowingly fulfilled the word of God?

I'm pretty sure the casting of lots was a valid option for them at the time, but only because they didn't yet receive the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

[/sub]

[sub]Yes, it was prophesized in the Old Testament that a virgin would conceive a child. Mary fulfilled God's word by saying yes. It was told in the Old Testament that there would be a voice crying in the desert. St. John the Baptist fulfilled God's word for he was that voice. [/sub]

 

[lforrest]

Thank you for the responses.

Have you considered Barnabas?

Interesting point. I saw Paul as a great man because we hear so much of his exploits, but Barnabas was there with him through much of it. Greatness does not always require fame where God is concerned. Jesus would speak against Pharisees who sought recognition. Matthew 23:5 For this reason I can't say for sure if Paul was the 12th apostle.

 

[neophyte]

Jesus passed on His Authority to Peter, who later commanded the rest of the apostles to draw lots for a replacement for Judas. At least that is what the Bible says.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus passed on His Authority to Peter, who later commanded the rest of the apostles to draw lots for a replacement for Judas. At least that is what the Bible says.

You are missing the point about authority. Spiritual authority is not like a game of tag.

 

[us2are1]

Christ plainly choose all of the apostles including the devil Judas. No one else was qualified to Choose for Christ, especially before the day of penticost. That is why Christ plainly choose Paul for himself while Paul was on the road to Damascus. We also know by Revelation 21:14 that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I have pointed this out in other threads ..... it appears the 12 apostles have a lot of significance in the big scheme of things

(From revelation 21:14) ... (The New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven)

[sup]14[/sup]The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I'm pretty sure the casting of lots was a valid option for them at the time, but only because they didn't yet receive the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

I do not see it as simply casting lots to choose by chance

First they prayed for Jesus to do the choosing

Then they cast lots.

And presumably Jesus manipulated the outcome the way he wanted

...................................................................................................................................................

[sup]23 [/sup]So they nominated two men: Joseph and Matthias.

[sup]24 [/sup]Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart.

Show us which of these two you have chosen [sup]25 .... [/sup]to take over this apostolic ministry, ...... ”

[sup]. 26 [/sup]Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[us2are1]

It is my belief that the apostles should not have tried to fulfill Psalm 109:8 as they did in Acts 1:20-26. By doing this they forced God to choose between two of Jesus’ followers, but it would actually be Paul who would eventually fulfill this scripture.

Has anyone but Jesus ever knowingly fulfilled the word of God?

I'm pretty sure the casting of lots was a valid option for them at the time, but only because they didn't yet receive the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

If the apostles, who had witnessed Christ and His power in person for 965 days, didn't know that they did not have the authority to choose for Christ, then how are those who have never seen him or experienced Him going to discern the truth? The Spirit of God was given to the apostles later and they realized the futility of their wasted motion. Here is who chooses who goes where.

22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."


The futile movements of man are all around. All the time. This is why it is so important for those who would see life to ask God for His Spirit in faith and not stop asking until you have received.

 

[Selene]

Christ plainly choose all of the apostles including the devil Judas. No one else was qualified to Choose for Christ, especially before the day of penticost. That is why Christ plainly choose Paul for himself while Paul was on the road to Damascus. We also know by Revelation 21:14 that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is not qualified to choose? What about God? Is God qualified to choose?

 

[us2are1]

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is not qualified to choose? What about God? Is God qualified to choose?

They did not have the Holy Spirit yet. Did you read the post at all? It is about only God choosing. Christ and God wrote the book of life and knows who goes where.

 

[Selene]

They did not have the Holy Spirit yet. Did you read the post at all? It is about only God choosing. Christ and God wrote the book of life and knows who goes where.

The Holy Spirit does not have to be in a person in order to make a choice. The Holy Spirit is God and He did make a choice. The Apostles asked God to show them which of the two should take over Judas' place.

Acts 1:24-26 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

God answered their prayers and the lot fell to Matthias. Is there a reason why you think God did not answer the prayers of His Apostles?

 

[lforrest]

I'm thinking that the Holy Spirit did choose a good leader that day, but perhaps not the apostle they were asking for. They wouldn't have expected that the candidates should include a witness to Jesus after the resurrection, whom was persecuting them at the time. God isn't obligated to correct their potential mistake. I don't see how it makes any difference if every christian thinks Matthias is numbered as one of the apostles, and for God to know otherwise.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

jesus chose the 12 , and the 12 did their jobs.

.... and we argue how.

 

[Mungo]

A few thoughts:

Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days before he ascended into heaven. If he had wanted to replace Judas himself he could have done so, or told the apostles to leave it to him later.

It was necessary to replace Judas before the coming of the Spirit so that the structure that Jesus had set up was complete.

There is no suggested in scripture that Paul was a replacement for Judas.

Barnabus is also described as an apostle

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (Acts 13:2
The apostles Barnabas and Paul tore their garments (Acts 14:4)

 

[Elle]

I personally believe that casting lots was only ever allowed by God for the High Priest and no other. Peter took it upon himself to replace Judas. Peter always had a habit of rushing ahead, but I believe he realized his error after the Holy Spirit was poured out on them. Yeshua was on earth for 40 days before descending into Heaven. I think if he had wanted them to do this, he would have instructed them to do so, but nope, never a peep from Yeshua. As for Paul, he is a false apostle chosen by Satan, not Yeshua, and I do not make that accusation lightly. Yeshua chose the replacement 12th apostle on the 1st day of the week when he rose from the dead. Who did Yeshua first choose to appear to? Mary Magdalene. It is she that is the 12th apostle that replaced Judas, not Matthias and not Paul. She is referred to as the Apostle to the apostles. There is an interesting saying in the Gospel of Thomas, saying 114. It says:"Simon Peter said to them, "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female (element) that makes itself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." Some say the Gospel of John was actually written by Mary, who would then be the disciple that Yeshua loved. I believe Leonardo daVinci also understood this, as is evidenced by his painting of the last supper.

 

[Endtime]

Has anyone but Jesus ever knowingly fulfilled the word of God?

Everyone including Christ has fulfilled the word of God. But not many knowingly.

Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough, Four or five in its most fruitful branches," Says the Lord God of Israel.

 

[bling]

There are some things to keep in mind:

Luke does not editorialize (tell you what he thinks happened). An example of this is: Acts 15: 39 And there arose a sharp contention, so that they parted asunder one from the other, and Barnabas took Mark with him, and sailed away unto Cyprus;

Luke does not tell us, who if either were at fault. Luke just tells us what happened.

In Acts 2 situation is before they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they were told to wait (hiring a person for a key position is not what I call waiting), they pray for Christ choice and immediately roll the dice (that is not what I would say waiting for Christ to respond).

If you follow the sequence: they pray for Christ to tell them His choice and the next time Jesus speaks he says Saul. Jesus said Saul twice so was the first for them?