The Restrainer. And the Restrained.

[Brakelite]

So the earliest quote from the church fathers you have on that, is several hundred years after the New Testament was written?

Nothing from John of Patmos’ disciples Ignatius and Polycarp?

Nothing from Barnabas? Any first or second century sources at all?

The restrainer is a HE. Do historians or bible scholars refer to the Roman Empire as a HE?

IMO the Roman Empire - being itself evil - did not, and could not, hold BACK or restrain anything evil at all.

Have you read any of the posts since the OP?

 

[Heart2Soul]

So the earliest quote from the church fathers you have on that, is several hundred years after the New Testament was written?

Nothing from John of Patmos’ disciples Ignatius and Polycarp?

Nothing from Barnabas? Any first or second century sources at all?

The restrainer is a HE. Do historians or bible scholars refer to the Roman Empire as a HE?

IMO the Roman Empire - being itself evil - did not, and could not, hold BACK or restrain anything evil at all.

Curtis I don't have an argument against the events you mentioned but you didn't catch what event I am referring to...Rome conquered and seized Jerusalem shortly after Jesus's death and Resurrection....in 70 A.D. to be precise...
The Roman Destruction and Rebuilding of Jerusalem - Drive Thru History Adventures
For the city of Jerusalem, the First Judean Revolt against Rome culminated in the capture and demolition of the city in 70 AD by general and future emperor Titus Flavius. This was followed by the eventual rebuilding and renaming of the city as Aelia Capitolina by Emperor Hadrian in 130 AD, then a violent response to Romanization of the city by the Bar Kokhba Revolt which lasted from 132-136 AD. In the space of several decades, not only had the city of Jerusalem and the Temple suffered obliteration, but the entire region had been desolated by wars, and the Romans even attempted to erase the memory of the city, the land, and events that had occurred there.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Except the 4th. There doesn't seem to be any issue with breaking the 4th. Whereas I suggest if one is truly filled with the holy Spirit, there is no issue with remembering it.

The physical keeping of a day of the week is a letter of the law we are no longer under. Jesus coming and giving us the Holy Spirit reveals the spirit of that law. And He, Himself, is the true substance of God's Rest. If you look at 1 John 3:23 which are the commandments that Jesus taught, Jesus makes up all of the commandments on the left, and loving our neighbor completes all the old commandments on the right.

But until you can see that, do NOT stop keeping the Sabbath just as you have been doing. And do ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brakelite]

Curtis I don't have an argument against the events you mentioned but you didn't catch what event I am referring to...Rome conquered and seized Jerusalem shortly after Jesus's death and Resurrection....in 70 A.D. to be precise...
The Roman Destruction and Rebuilding of Jerusalem - Drive Thru History Adventures
For the city of Jerusalem, the First Judean Revolt against Rome culminated in the capture and demolition of the city in 70 AD by general and future emperor Titus Flavius. This was followed by the eventual rebuilding and renaming of the city as Aelia Capitolina by Emperor Hadrian in 130 AD, then a violent response to Romanization of the city by the Bar Kokhba Revolt which lasted from 132-136 AD. In the space of several decades, not only had the city of Jerusalem and the Temple suffered obliteration, but the entire region had been desolated by wars, and the Romans even attempted to erase the memory of the city, the land, and events that had occurred there.

All of which contributed to the events in Rome at that time. The Romans themselves already detested the Jews even before Jesus came along. And they hated the country. Serving there was considered the absolute pits, the lowliest most desolate and unfriendly land on the planet. Or so the Romans thought anyway. But after the revolts and the numerous skirmishes you mentioned over several decades, Jews themselves were despised utterly, and even the Christians in many instances wanted to distance themselves from the Jews as much as possible. It was this dynamic that led early Christians to savor Sunday as a day of religious dedication in place of the Sabbath. The Romans were intent on persecuting the Jews and destroying their religion... The Sabbath was the most recognizable mark of Judaism and Christians simply did not want to be caught up in the mayhem of that time. The Sabbath was still kept for several centuries by Christians, but especially in Rome and Alexandria, where the Roman military and government was strongest, and where gnosticism was prevalent, Sunday became popular and the Sabbath eventually abandoned altogether.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I've been waiting to be edumacated but it looks like I've missed my run

LOL. I can't understand that. You're so cute!

 

[Brakelite]

The physical keeping of a day of the week is a letter of the law we are no longer under.

So in the same context physical adultery is a letter of the law we can claim no longer applies to us, so long as we don't lust?

 

[CharismaticLady]

So in the same context physical adultery is a letter of the law we can claim no longer applies to us, so long as we don't lust?

The letter of the law is the bottom line. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't be lusting after his wife, so will never get to the letter of the law.

 

[Brakelite]

The letter of the law is the bottom line. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't be lusting after his wife, so will never get to the letter of the law.

But it doesn't mean the letter isn't obeyed. It is how it is obeyed wherein lies the difference. You cannot stop committing physical adultery until you love your neighbor and the lust is expunged from the heart. You cannot observe the physical Sabbath until you love Jesus with all the heart, and are completely at rest with and in Him.
You can't rest physically until you are at rest spiritually.

 

[Brakelite]

The letter of the law is the bottom line. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't be lusting after his wife, so will never get to the letter of the law.

And you are still ignoring the fact that Sunday sacredness is no where found in the scriptures. As I pointed out, it was the church, the Catholic Church of Rome, which introduced Sunday as a religious observance. The popular reasons for observing Sunday today as you have attempted to promote, are all mere intellectual theological man made excuses. There is nothing in scripture that states that resting in Christ superceded the Commandment to keep the 7th day holy. That day is still holy. You cannot go past that. It's still holy.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And you are still ignoring the fact that Sunday sacredness is no where found in the scriptures. As I pointed out, it was the church, the Catholic Church of Rome, which introduced Sunday as a religious observance. The popular reasons for observing Sunday today as you have attempted to promote, are all mere intellectual theological man made excuses. There is nothing in scripture that states that resting in Christ superceded the Commandment to keep the 7th day holy. That day is still holy. You cannot go past that. It's still holy.

I've already told you that there is no law to keep Sunday. His people did that on their own. But it had NOTHING to do with sun worshipping, but the day Jesus rose from the dead, and then 50 days later, sent the Holy Spirit to start the New Covenant (on a Sunday).

 

[Waiting on him]

I've already told you that there is no law to keep Sunday. His people did that on their own. But it had NOTHING to do with sun worshipping, but the day Jesus rose from the dead, and then 50 days later, sent the Holy Spirit to start the New Covenant (on a Sunday).

Yes He always appears to them on the first day of the week.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes He always appears to them on the first day of the week.

Maybe that is so we put Him first, and not last.

 

[Waiting on him]

Maybe that is so we put Him first, and not last.

We’ll always have those who dictate law to us, the law of Moses,thing is the law they dictate is the same laws that the Pharisees were always trying to snare Jesus in so they could justify their murdering hearts.

 

[Waiting on him]

All any of this really comes down to is self justifying.

thank God I’m not as this filthy publican.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The physical keeping of a day of the week is a letter of the law we are no longer under. Jesus coming and giving us the Holy Spirit reveals the spirit of that law. And He, Himself, is the true substance of God's Rest. If you look at 1 John 3:23 witch are the commandments that Jesus taught, Jesus makes up all of the commandments on the left, and loving our neighbor completes all the old commandments on the right.

But until you can see that, do NOT stop keeping the Sabbath just as you have been doing. And do ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Well said. He is the rest one is to enter into.

 

[farouk]

My question concerning: now you know what withholds (restrains) that he might be revealed in his time
…until he be taken out of the way.
And then that wicked shall be revealed.
Whom the Lord shall consume with the brightness of His coming?

1) if the Spirit of God is the restrainer that restrains…the one who withholds …until the Spirit of God is taken out of the way …then what or who reveals; uncovers, makes manifest or reveals in “And then that wicked one, that man of sin is revealed”? If the Spirit of God is the one restraining to be taken out of the way …then what good is “and then that man of sin is revealed” when there is no light?

Which leads to another question. If the Spirit of God is the restrainer taken out of the way, then why is the Spirit of God the One coming where His presence and brightness consumes and destroys that man of sin then revealed? Is God taking Himself out of the way and coming in brightness at the same time?
Ephesians 5:12-14 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. [13] But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. [14] Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

yet what is often proposed is it is the Light which restrains and keeps that man of sin from “and then that man of sin is revealed”…instead of it being the darkness which restrains …hinders…prevents….withholds…the Light of the gospel of Christ “lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

2 Corinthians 4:2-4 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of (Christ)the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. [3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It seems it is the god of this world which restrains, prevents, hinders, persecuting the way where Christ said I am the way. The god of this world withholds the Light while God who is gracious and full of mercy said How much more He will give the gift of the Holy Spirit (A Lamp, Light) to those who ask. It seems it is the god of this world that restrains and hinders as He said to the Pharisees not only do you not enter in to the kingdom of God, but you do not suffer others to enter in. It seems it is the god of this world who is to be taken out of the way …then that man of sin is revealed whom God destroys and consumes with the brightness of His coming, while Christ is glorified in those whom the glorious light of the gospel of Christ shined unto. We say, or it is prosed time and time again the Holy Spirit is the restrainer that hinders or withholds and prevents until He…the Spirit of God is taken out of the way. And then that man of sin, that evil one is revealed. It Makes no sense. Luke 11:33-36 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. [34] The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. [35] Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. [36] If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

We propose to be the Light the world …to let the Light Shine. But at the same time say the Spirit of God is the restrainer of Light? Instead of the restrainer which makes blind is the darkness; that hinders and blinds that they stumble and know not what they stumble over…that is to be taken up or away or removed…as in take up the stumbling block from before My people …see that you cast not a stumbling block before the blind that they stumble in the way.

is it not the god of this world which restrains until he be taken out of the way …then that man of sin is revealed(made manifest) (by His coming) whom the God of all things present and to come destroys and consumes with the brightness of His coming.

@VictoryinJesus I think it can be good to remember that in the context of the rapture of the church and the subsequent Great Tribulation, the removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit makes sense in the scheme of things. (If, of course, the church and Israel are not considered distinct, then I can see how ppl might struggle more with the idea that it is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that is taken away.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@VictoryinJesus I think it can be good to remember that in the context of the rapture of the church and the subsequent Great Tribulation, the removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit makes sense in the scheme of things. (If, of course, the church and Israel are not considered distinct, then I can see how ppl might struggle more with the idea that it is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that is taken away.)

Disagree but that is okay. You could be right and I definitely could be wrong. To me it is the restraining influence of darkness that is taken away. I agree God allows the blindness to remain until He decides it is removed or to be taken out of the way. yet still (again it is only an opinion) that it is the vail taken away in Christ that enables sight as in however once they turn to God the vail is removed…taken out of the way
What is removed and restrains seeing in 2 Corinthians 3:7-18 and what remains and gives sight to the blind? ‘But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. [12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: [13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

What is removed and restrains seeing that man of sin?
what remains and gives sight to the blind revealing that man of sin? Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Waiting on him]

@VictoryinJesus I think it can be good to remember that in the context of the rapture of the church and the subsequent Great Tribulation, the removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit makes sense in the scheme of things. (If, of course, the church and Israel are not considered distinct, then I can see how ppl might struggle more with the idea that it is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that is taken away.)

1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJV

[16] Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​

2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Greek: κωλύω
Transliteration: kōluō
Pronunciation: ko-loo'-o
Definition: From the base of G2849; to estop that is prevent (by word or act): - forbid hinder keep from let not suffer withstand.
KJV Usage: forbid (17x), hinder (2x), withstand (1x), keep from (1x), let (1x), not suffer (1x).
Occurs: 23
In verses: 23

 

[VictoryinJesus]

1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJV

[16] Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​

2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Greek: κωλύω
Transliteration: kōluō
Pronunciation: ko-loo'-o
Definition: From the base of G2849; to estop that is prevent (by word or act): - forbid hinder keep from let not suffer withstand.
KJV Usage: forbid (17x), hinder (2x), withstand (1x), keep from (1x), let (1x), not suffer (1x).
Occurs: 23
In verses: 23

Galatians 4:15-17 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. [16] Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? [17] They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

 

[Enoch111]

And you are still ignoring the fact that Sunday sacredness is no where found in the scriptures.

Fortunately it is not called "Sunday" in the Bible but it is called "the first day of the week" or "the morrow after the Sabbath". And it does have great significance in Scripture since it is also called "the Lord's Day" (not "the day of the LORD").

Why is the first day of the week "the Lord's Day"? Because He fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits by rising from the dead on this day. Therefore He is called "the First Fruits of them that slept". The day of Pentecost was on the first day of the week. And on that day there was a huge harvest of souls. And because it is the Lord's Day it became the day of Christian worship in the apostolic churches.

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. (1 Cor 16:1-3)

The principles of the Sabbath were transferred to the Lord's Day. And that fully meets the commandment regarding the Sabbath (which was given to Israel, but Israel often failed to observe it as God intended).