The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[CrowCross]

First, Jesus explicitly establishes the chronology in Matthew 24:29-37. In verse 29, He says: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Then, in verse 30, He says the sign of the Son of Man will appear. Only after stating this does He say in verse 37: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus does not place the days of Noah before the tribulation; He places the comparison after it.

This points to a pre-trib rapture.
In your post you said...

• The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated by God's total, final wrath during the early seals and trumpets, how is the global population still operating an economy stable enough to ship gifts to one another worldwide?

As you said "The Economic Infrastructure: If the planet had already been utterly obliterated".....BUT...Jesus speaks of a working social economic conditions prior to His coming in the days of Noah and Lot descriptions.

Luke 17:
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

This is not what the social economic conditions will look like at the end of the tribulation.

 

[marks]

What are you talking about? We both know that scripture never contradicts itself. Scripture is very clear that salvation is NOT by works. It couldn't possibly be more clear. So, why would you think that Matthew 25:31-46 teaches otherwise? You need to put more effort into finding a way to keep scripture from contradicting itself instead of acting as if there is more than one way to be saved. There is not. Salvation is and always has been and always will be by grace through faith and NOT by works. Period. Paul did not indicate that there were any exceptions. The reason it's impossible for it to be any other way is because someone would have to be perfect in order to be saved by works. They'd have to be sinless. Someone who broke even one commandment of the law was guilty of breaking them all (James 2:10). No one can possibly earn their own salvation by works.


That is utter nonsense. Where do you come up with things like this? Scripture absolutely never teaches this. The term "the church" simply refers to those who belong to Jesus Christ. They belong to what Paul said has its foundation with the apostles and prophets and its cornerstone is Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22). How can you think anyone who is saved by the blood of Christ is not part of the church with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone. There's no other name by which anyone can be saved (Acts 4:12), so anyone saved by faith in Christ at any time, including during a future time of tribulation, becomes part of the church. Do you deny that people saved during the supposed future 7 year tribulation belong to Christ? They would have to belong to Christ because there's no other way to be saved (John 14:6, Acts 4:12). Anyone who belongs to Christ is part of the church.


Here you go again with your rude comments. You complain about me, but you get in digs like this all the time. You have no self awareness. Scripture ALWAYS means what it says, but the scriptural text isn't always literal and straightforward. There are various genres of text in scripture, so to say that any given verse or passage means what it says is meaningless without identifying the genre of text being used and also without considering the context of the verse in question.


You're making this claim while doing literally nothing to back it up. How are you coming to this conclusion? There is no indication whatsoever that the sheep are not Christians. Yet, you are coming to that conclusion. Only those who belong to Christ will inherit eternal life. To think otherwise contradicts a great deal of scripture.


Yes, that's true, but what do you think that means? He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). He has mercy on those who repent of their sins and put their faith in Him (Luke 18:9-14).


There is nothing in scripture to support your speculation.


No, He does not! Salvation has ALWAYS been by grace through faith and not by works. No one in history has been saved by their own works and no one ever will be. Someone would have to be sinless in order to do that. No one can atone for their own sins. No one can permanently cover their own sins. Only the blood of Christ could do that. His blood retroactively covered the sins of Old Testament believers and covers the sins of all New Testament believers, including anyone saved during any future tribulation period. There is no other way for anyone to be saved. You are sadly mistaken to think otherwise.


They were all saved the same way. By God's grace through faith. None were saved any other way. You are terribly mistaken here.


Not in relation to how someone obtains salvation/eternal life.


This is not taught anywhere in scripture! I guarantee that you cannot find one single verse to support this claim. Nowhere does scripture ever teach that salvation has ever or ever will be obtained apart from faith. You just do not understand that if salvation could be earned by obedience and works, someone would have to be sinless in order for that to be the case because they would have no means of having atonement for their sins if faith in Christ was not required. It's faith in Christ and His atoning blood that is required for salvation. No one can earn it through obedience and works. That is impossible.

This seems to be going awry again. My apologies for anything untoward I've said!

Much love!

 

[marks]

BTW, if you are having a hard time following me here, keep in mind you are the one complaining that AI shouldn't be used for anything, not even as a tool for expressing something more coherently. I understand myself just fine.

I'm planning to come back to this later to actually respond, but just to say I think I'm following you just fine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You have to programmed into the pre-trib myth

If you are saying the only way you'd believe pre-trib is if you were programmed into it, I will most heartily disagree with you.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All of that is involving the DOTL. The chronology is this. They are first saying peace and safety, Then like a thief in the night the DOTL comes upon them suddenly, thus the vials of wrath follow.

Paul said that the ones saying "peace and safety" "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Who do you think the ones saying "peace and safety" are?

That is involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, not during it. Some of you need to look at Revelation 13 again and point out anywhere in that chapter that it is involving what Revelation 16 is involving. The vials of wrath in Revelation 16 are post the 42 month reign, not during it. No one would be saying during the vials of wrath---who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with it?

The 42 month reign = great tribulation.

Great tribulation equals the little season mentioned in Revelation 6 pertaining to the 6th seal. The martyrs under the altar are to rest a little while longer until the little season on earth passes. Which then leads to the 6th seal when great tribulation on earth passes, the 6th seal involving the wrath of God after great tribulation, and involving the Revelation 16 vials of wrath.

The last 7 vials of wrath are in the 7th trumpet. If the vials of wrath parallel the trumpets, such as trumpet 1 and vial 1 paralleling, we end up with an absurdity. And it is this. The 42 month reign of the beast occurs during the 6th trumpet. That is when there is a mark to take or not take. Therefore, it is absurd that vial 1 gets poured out during trumpet 1. As of trumpet 1, no one has the mark yet. That doesn't happen until the time of the 6th trumpet.

I'm not saying it's your view that the trumpets and vials run in parallel. I simply don't know if it's your view or not. But if it is, I then showed an absurdity it causes.

I believe it's absurd to think that the trumpets and vials do not run in parallel because Jesus will return at the seventh, last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-54). If the trumpets and vials are not parallel then you would need all 7 vial events to somehow occur after Jesus returns at which point the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up to Him with those who are alive and remain. Is that what you think will happen? If so, that would require all 7 vials to relate directly to the timing of what is described in Revelation 19:11-21. Is that what you believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not see any case for a postrib rapture ANYWHERE in that copy paste article.
Nor did it do any damage to the pretrib doctrine.

In fact look at the weak "expose" of "well Jesus used the days of Noah a few verses down from where he said "after the trib", so pretribbers got it wrong."

Wow...how dumb.

It's dumb to think that Jesus comparing the time before His second coming to the days of Noah before the flood supports the pre-trib rapture theory. He was talking about the time before "the coming of the Son of Man" that He had just described as being the time when He comes and the elect are gathered AFTER the tribulation of those days. That clearly supports post-trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol.
Still no verses?
You are proving you will invoke unlimited deflections to avoid posting verse.
That makes 3 posts by you avoiding my request for a verse
Is it really that hard?
We can all see you ran from the request.

Awww is the pretribber being so mean and hard on you?
Poor little baby.
Cue more deflections.

Bottom line...no verses.
Postrib dilemma.

Carry on.

This is rich coming from you. You NEVER exegete any scripture and you are complaining about someone else not doing so? That is hilarious. And you FREQUENTLY whine about the way post-tribbers like me post. But, look at how you post with all your taunting and name calling. Stop being a hypocrite.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I said pick any verse that you THINK is pre-trib. All you did was respond with an insult.

He complains about post-tribbers being insulting, yet he is the most insulting poster on this entire forum. Very ironic.

 

[CrowCross]

If you are saying the only way you'd believe pre-trib is if you were programmed into it, I will most heartily disagree with you.

Much love!

Of course the amill-post tribbers weren't "pre-programmed".

 

[Davidpt]

I believe it's absurd to think that the trumpets and vials do not run in parallel because Jesus will return at the seventh, last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-54). If the trumpets and vials are not parallel then you would need all 7 vial events to somehow occur after Jesus returns at which point the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up to Him with those who are alive and remain. Is that what you think will happen? If so, that would require all 7 vials to relate directly to the timing of what is described in Revelation 19:11-21. Is that what you believe?

Let's test your theory then.

I don't know how you go about determining things, but I tend to let the texts involved determine when something is meaning. It doesn't matter if none of it is meaning in a literal sense. It still has to precede, parallel, or follow something.

Read what the text actually says, the details are important.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Details we can't ignore.

1) there can't be a 2nd beast coming out of the earth and doing the things it does until a first beast ascends out of the sea(pit) first.

2) the first beast which ascends out of the sea must match this---which had the wound by a sword, and did live. In regard to that, it makes zero sense that this is the status of the beast while it's in the pit and/or before it's in the pit. That is incorrect if anyone concludes that. Therefore, this is the status of it once it ascends out of the pit it's been bound in. The question then is, does it ascend out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet or post the time of the first trumpet? That little detail clearly matters if one is going to insist trumpet 1 and vial 1 run in parallel.

3) Only after a first beast rises out of the sea(pit) first, and a second one out of the earth, can any of the following per 4) happen.

4) saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

5) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. Obviously, the first vial can't precede anything in 1)-4) above. And that this image and mark is connected with--one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. IOW, it is is not involving an era of time when the beast is in the pit or before it's in the pit. Since it is absurd that---one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed--is applicable to it when it's in the pit, or before it's in the pit, rather than once it ascends from the pit. 3 options but only one correct answer.

If you still insist vial 1 is poured out during trumpet 1, you need to provide the Scriptures that prove this, that the beast ascends out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet, and that it's 42 month reign precedes the time of the first trumpet. After all, it is absurd that the first vial can get poured out before everything pertaining to Revelation 13 is fulfilled first. I shouldn't have to tell you that. You should be able to figure it out on your own. But you appear to maybe let doctrinal bias guide you, in this case, rather than the texts involved guiding you, in the event you still insist the trumpets and vials run in parallel.

According to your timeline, if I recall correctly, the beast does not ascend from the pit until trumpet 5. That means the people who worship the beast after his ascension in trumpet 5 completely miss vials 1, 2, 3, and 4, because those vials were already poured out back during trumpets 1-4.

How can the first four vials be targeted at the beast’s global kingdom if those vials are completely finished before the beast even comes out of the pit? You have God punishing people for the mark of the beast before the beast arrives, and letting the actual followers of the ascended beast off scot-free from the first four plagues. The text of Revelation 16 says the vials are poured out on those who worship his image---your timeline immunizes the very people the text says are being targeted.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's test your theory then.

I don't know how you go about determining things, but I tend to let the texts involved determine when something is meaning.

Whatever that even means.

It doesn't matter if none of it is meaning in a literal sense. It still has to precede, parallel, or follow something.

Okay...

Read what the text actually says,

As if I haven't?

the details are important.

As if I don't think they are?

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Details we can't ignore.

As if I think we can ignore details? Can you stop saying ridiculous things like this?

1) there can't be a 2nd beast coming out of the earth and doing the things it does until a first beast ascends out of the sea(pit) first.

Sure.

2) the first beast which ascends out of the sea must match this---which had the wound by a sword, and did live. In regard to that, it makes zero sense that this is the status of the beast while it's in the pit and/or before it's in the pit. That is incorrect if anyone concludes that.

Why do you say this? Also, it doesn't say the beast itself had the wound by a sword, it says one of the heads of the beast had the wound by a sword and did live. What do you think that means exactly? Of course, you take the bottomless pit literally, so I assume you think that if the beast is said to be in the bottomless pit, then it can't be alive. You think the beast represents a human being, right? A future Antichrist? John said the beast "was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition." (Revelation 17:8). How can that describe a human being when the beast existed before John wrote the book? When it says the beast "is not", it isn't saying the beast doesn't exist. One of its heads "is" at that time (Rev 17:10), which means it existed at that time. That head represents the Roman empire. There's so many things like this that you don't even take into consideration.

Therefore, this is the status of it once it ascends out of the pit it's been bound in. The question then is, does it ascend out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet or post the time of the first trumpet? That little detail clearly matters if one is going to insist trumpet 1 and vial 1 run in parallel.

3) Only after a first beast rises out of the sea(pit) first, and a second one out of the earth, can any of the following per 4) happen.

4) saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

5) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. Obviously, the first vial can't precede anything in 1)-4) above. And that this image and mark is connected with--one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. IOW, it is is not involving an era of time when the beast is in the pit or before it's in the pit.

You keep claiming that, but there is no basis for your claim. The beast is not a human being and has been around since John wrote the book of Revelation. The beast represents the world system at any given time in history. The heads represent the historical world empires. Even though the beast was in the pit when John wrote the book (Rev 17:8), one of the heads existed at the time, which was the Roman empire. As John said, five had fallen, one "is" and one was yet to come (Rev 17:10). So, the beast was not rendered completely incapacitated in the pit. You just have the wrong understanding of what being in the bottomless pit means, which is why you also don't understand what Satan's binding is all about.

If you still insist vial 1 is poured out during trumpet 1, you need to provide the Scriptures that prove this, that the beast ascends out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet, and that it's 42 month reign precedes the time of the first trumpet.

I just can't follow your logic at all. I don't even claim that the beast ascends out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet. I believe that the binding of the beast in the pit and the binding of Satan in the pit go hand in hand. The beast and the dragon depend on each other (Revelation 13:4). I believe Apollyon (Abaddon) is Satan and it shows him as being released from the bottomless pit at the time of the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9). So, that is when I would say that the beast ascends out of the pit.

After all, it is absurd that the first vial can get poured out before everything pertaining to Revelation 13 is fulfilled first. I shouldn't have to tell you that. You should be able to figure it out on your own. But you appear to maybe let doctrinal bias guide you rather that the texts involved guiding you, in the event you still insist the trumpets and vials run in parallel.

This is laughable coming from the person who allows doctrinal bias to cloud his vision of every verse he reads.

According to your timeline, if I recall correctly, the beast does not ascend from the pit until trumpet 5.

Wow. I'm kind of shocked that you actually remember this. But, with this in mind, why in the world did you say "you need to provide the Scriptures that prove this, that the beast ascends out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet"? You already knew that I didn't even believe that.

That means the people who worship the beast after his ascension in trumpet 5 completely miss vials 1, 2, 3, and 4, because those vials were already poured out back during trumpets 1-4.

So?

How can the first four vials be targeted at the beast’s global kingdom if those vials are completely finished before the beast even comes out of the pit?

Because the beast is not incapacitated while in the pit. Your understanding of what it means to be in the pit is completely flawed. You take it too literally, so you don't understand it. It's a figurative reference to restraint, not a literal reference to literal, complete incapacitation.

You have God punishing people for the mark of the beast before the beast arrives,

The beast arrived long ago already. You have no understanding of the beast. The beast "was" before John wrote the book.

 

[Davidpt]

Wow. I'm kind of shocked that you actually remember this. But, with this in mind, why in the world did you say "you need to provide the Scriptures that prove this, that the beast ascends out of the pit before the time of the first trumpet"? You already knew that I didn't even believe that.

I asked you to provide those Scriptures to illustrate how fundamentally illogical your position is. Since you admit the beast doesn't rise until trumpet 5, you have effectively trapped yourself. You are forced to defend the absurd claim that the trumpets and vials run in parallel, while simultaneously placing the punishment for beast-worship (vial 1) four cycles before the Beast even ascends to enforce his system.

You have God pouring out vials on people for worshiping a beast during the era you admit it 'is not' (while it is still restricted in the pit). IOW, you have the vials of wrath, 4 of them, being poured out during your millennium and before you even have satan loosed from the pit. I don't think even @Douggg can outdo that nonsense via his interpretation of these trumpets, etc.. This has to be the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard of, 4 of the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, being poured out during the millennium, thus before satan is even loosed. I don't think anybody can top that. You win the prize for coming up with the most nonsensical theory possible.

Unlike you, I let Scripture dictate the timeline. Revelation 13 and 16 explicitly tie vial 1 to the mark and the image, which only exist after the beast ascends, is wounded, and is healed. Where is your Scripture proving that God punishes people with the first four vials while the beast is still down in the pit? You don't have any. You have zero Scripture and pure speculation, whereas I have the explicit cause and effect of Revelation 13 and 16. And yes I know you don't take the pit literal. But that is beside the point.

Once again, I let the texts itself determine things, in this case. While you, in this case, don't. It's basically a debate between Scriptures vs speculations. I'm the one with the Scriptures, you are the one with the speculations with no Scriptural support, meaning in this case. Meaning in regard to the trumpets and vials. Revelation 13, in light of Revelation 16, proves they don't run in parallel. Your argument against that consists of only pure speculation and no Scripture to back what you are alleging.

To insist that four of the seven last plagues of God's completed wrath are actively being poured out on earth during the very era when satan is supposed to be bound and the gospel is flourishing is a theological disaster. If Amil were true, the vials must belong exclusively to satan's little season at the very end, when the beast is out of the pit. Putting them in the Millennium completely ruins the definition of what Amils' Millennium is supposed to be!

You basically have created a Frankenstein timeline. You want the literary defense of Amil (progressive parallelism), but you have plugged your milestones in so poorly that you have---The beast ascending late (Trumpet 5)---the final plagues hitting early (vial 1/trumpet 1)---the wrath of God filling up the earth while satan is still locked in the pit.

It is completely absurd. You have compromised the internal logic of your own theological system just to avoid admitting that my reading of Revelation 13 and 16 is correct. Apparently then, I invest more time thinking through some of these things first before deciding how to interpret something than you do. But I'm the one that is not correct. Right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I asked you to provide those Scriptures to illustrate how fundamentally illogical your position is.

Yet, you did nothing to prove that my logic is fundamentally illogical. Only in your own mind. I'm not obligated to agree with your false understanding of the beast. You don't take into account that the beast "was" before John wrote the book. You don't take into account that one of the beast's heads "is" at the time he wrote the book. If you only see the beast as a future entity then you are not going to understand any of the text relating to the beast.

Since you admit the beast doesn't rise until trumpet 5,

Admit? That's nothing to "admit". The beast and the dragon go hand in hand. They depend on each other (Rev 13:4). Apollyon/Abaddon is Satan and it shows the bottomless pit as being opened at the fifth trumpet. Therefore, Satan is released from the pit at the fifth trumpet and it only follows that is true of the beast as well.

you have effectively trapped yourself.

LOL. You make so many claims as if you prove something and you prove nothing. It's truly unbelievable. Only in your own mind are you refuting my view. Not in reality.

You are forced to defend the absurd claim that the trumpets and vials run in parallel,

LOL. You are forced to defend the absurd claim that some amount of time (how long do you think the time period of the vials lasts?) occurs after the kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and Son. You are forced to defend the absurd claim that a period of time occurs after Jesus returns at the seventh/last trumpet. Don't even get me started on how absurd your view is. Yet, you are claiming that about mine. Hilarious.

while simultaneously placing the punishment for beast-worship (vial 1) four cycles before the Beast even ascends to enforce his system.

That is YOUR assumption. I'm not obligated to agree with your assumption that nothing happens in relation to the beast until some future 3.5 year period of time.

You have God pouring out vials on people for worshiping a beast during the era you admit it 'is not' (while it is still restricted in the pit).

When it says "it is not" it doesn't mean the beast is completely incapacitated. I told you that. Despite it saying the beast "is not", one of its heads "is" (Rev 17:10). You miss details like that.

IOW, you have the vials of wrath, 4 of them, being poured out during your millennium and before you even have satan loosed from the pit. I don't think even @Douggg can outdo that nonsense via his interpretation of these trumpets, etc.. This has to be the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard of, 4 of the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, being poured out during the millennium, thus before satan is even loosed. I don't think anybody can top that. You win the prize for coming up with the most nonsensical theory possible.

You don't realize how nonsensical your own view is. When the seventh and last trumpet sounds, that's it. Game over. The dead in Christ will be raised and our bodies will all be changed and Jesus will destroy all unbelievers. There isn't going to be a bunch of things happening after that, as you imagine.

Unlike you, I let Scripture dictate the timeline.

LOL. All you do is make false claims that you can't back up. It's ludicrous.

Revelation 13 and 16 explicitly tie vial 1 to the mark and the image, which only exist after the beast ascends, is wounded, and is healed.

Again, you are making assumptions that everything written about the beast only applies to after it ascends from the pit. You have no understanding of the beast. You can't even tell me what your understanding is of the beast. Yet, you expect me to believe what you say about the beast? Think again.

Where is your Scripture proving that God punishes people with the first four vials while the beast is still down in the pit? You don't have any.

Where is your scripture proving otherwise? You don't have any. You make all kinds of assumptions about things

You have zero Scripture and pure speculation, whereas I have the explicit cause and effect of Revelation 13 and 16.

LOL. You have zero understanding of the beast. It does not represent some future individual. It "was" before John wrote the book. Your beliefs about things related to the beast are based on a false understanding of what the beast represents.

And yes I know you don't take the pit literal. But that is beside the point.

No, it isn't. It makes a big difference whether you take it literally or not. Figures that you'd try to minimize the significance of that.

Once again, I let the texts itself determine things, in this case.

So do I. Your comments like this are meaningless. Stop wasting your time making them.

While you, in this case, don't. It's basically a debate between Scriptures vs speculations. I'm the one with the Scriptures, you are the one with the speculations with no Scriptural support, meaning in this case.

You are very repetitive. You can say these things just once and that's enough. No need to repeat this nonsense. You are posting total gibberish. If you're going to make claims in relation to the beast then you need to explain how your view of the beast lines up with John saying that the beast "was" before the book was written and how one of its heads "is" at the time the book was written. That means John saying that the beast "is not" at the time the book was written does not mean the beast did not exist or wasn't active at all. You have no understanding at all of what the beast and other symbols in Revelation represent.

Meaning in regard to the trumpets and vials. Revelation 13, in light of Revelation 16, proves they don't run in parallel.

You are proving nothing here.

Your argument against that consists of only pure speculation and no Scripture to back what you are alleging.

Your post is full of baseless claims. This a complete waste of time.

To insist that four of the seven last plagues of God's completed wrath are actively being poured out on earth during the very era when satan is supposed to be bound and the gospel is flourishing is a theological disaster. If Amil were true, the vials must belong exclusively to satan's little season at the very end, when the beast is out of the pit. Putting them in the Millennium completely ruins the definition of what Amils' Millennium is supposed to be!

You basically have created a Frankenstein timeline. You want the literary defense of Amil (progressive parallelism), but you have plugged your milestones in so poorly that you have---The beast ascending late (Trumpet 5)---the final plagues hitting early (vial 1/trumpet 1)---the wrath of God filling up the earth while satan is still locked in the pit.

It is completely absurd. You have compromised the internal logic of your own theological system just to avoid admitting that my reading of Revelation 13 and 16 is correct. Apparently then, I invest more time thinking through some of these things first before deciding how to interpret something than you do. But I'm the one that is not correct. Right?

Right. You are not correct. I'm glad you agree. Your logic makes no sense at all. Read 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,50-54 and Revelation 11:15-18. How can you think all 7 vials can occur after what is described there in relation to the return of Christ? You need to explain that and so far you have done literally nothing to explain that. If you can do that, then I'll read it. I have no interest in continuing to read your posts that make all sorts of claims that you can't support with scripture. Get back to me if you are ever able to explain how all 7 vial events could possibly all occur after Jesus returns in a reasonable and understandable way.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Post tribbers have strange beliefs? The irony is that pre tribbers hold to some mythical arrival before the second coming that isn't even in the bible.

Your refusal to post any actual scriptures is the deflection

You seem challenged to hold a civil discourse without a snarky remark.

QUOTE
"Your refusal to post any actual scriptures is the deflection"

You don't process information well, do you?
I had asked you for a verse.
It was beyond your ability, so you did your snide methodology of , "well you post a pretrib rapture verse"
You ran away from the request 3 times .
Then tried to label me as defective and ILL informed as you are.

 

[Davidpt]

QUOTE
"Your refusal to post any actual scriptures is the deflection"

You don't process information well, do you?
I had asked you for a verse.
It was beyond your ability, so you did your snide methodology of , "well you post a pretrib rapture verse"
You ran away from the request 3 times .
Then tried to label me as defective and ILL informed as you are.

And you will still insist, thus continue to lie, that no one has produced a single passage proving that the coming of Christ and the rapture are PostTrib

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Thus this coming and being changed = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Revelation 19:11 ¶And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Thus this coming = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

One cannot find one coming of Christ in the future that is meaning before Matthew 24:29 rather than after. If there was a coming of Christ before Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24 itself would have recorded it.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together

Verse 27 undeniably proves Christ has not come again, in any sense, prior to when these verses are meaning. Verse 27 did not happen, in any sense, prior to the beginning of great tribulation. BTW, all those coming passages submitted above, how many comings should we assume are meant? Just one in total? Or numerous comings, thus at different times? I guess it depends on who you ask. You ask a PostTribber that and the answer will be the correct and only answer-- Just one in total. You ask a Pretribber that and the answer will be the incorrect, thus wrong answer---more than one coming that happens at different times.

Computers, for example, which are not even God, have the ability to multi task. But God Himself does not have the ability to multi task? Imagine that, computers can do things that even God can't do. That based on if Pretrib is to be believed.

Multitasking means doing more than one task or job at the exact same time, or rapidly switching your attention back and forth between different activities

Here is an example of God multitasking in the OT. But I guess He lost abilities like that once Pretrib became a thing.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

Even humans have the abilty to multitask, though not to the degree computers or God can.

Motor Skills---Your hands are steering, your feet are modulating the gas and brake pedals, and your eyes are scanning the road and mirrors.

Cognitive Processing---Your brain is continuously calculating speeds, anticipating the behavior of other drivers, and interpreting traffic signs.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And you will still insist, thus continue to lie, that no one has produced a single passage proving that the coming of Christ and the rapture are PostTrib

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth molol
urn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Thus this coming and being changed = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Revelation 19:11 ¶And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Thus this coming = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

One cannot find one coming of Christ in the future that is meaning before Matthew 24:29 rather than after. If there was a coming of Christ before Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24 itself would have recorded it.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together

Verse 27 undeniably proves Christ has not come again, in any sense, prior to when these verses are meaning. Verse 27 did not happen, in any sense, prior to the beginning of great tribulation.

Lol
You like using that word liar huh?
You think spewing lies makes you right?
You posted a verse that AFTER THE TRIB there is a gathering where Jesus sends angels and does not participate.
And you recklessly claim that is 1 thes 4.
How ridiculous.
Then you claim one is taken and one left behind in a pretrib wicked man rapture!
How hilarious.
Then you invoke your "trumpet verse" thinking you just erased all 9 pretrib rapture verses!!!
Wow, really????

Then you post the second coming on white horses and hope to fool yourself and your colleagues that that is the rapture???
Huh????
So easily debunked and far fetched.

You were saying who is a liar????

Now...could you please post for us a postrib rapture verse.
Psssst...a gathering by Jesus after the flood and after Sodom burned.( as your doctrine seems to spew)
You know, your "one coming" fairy tale

 

[rebuilder 454]

Wow what a bunch of made up mess in postribber failed doctrine!!!!

I have yet to see A SINGLE VERSE posted by a postribber pointing to a postrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That "wicked man rapture" made up by postribbers is beyond ridiculous.
They actually have convinced themselves that half the population of earth is unsaved and half born again.

It is most likely 10 % or less.
The fruit of a man made doctrine on display.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And you will still insist, thus continue to lie, that no one has produced a single passage proving that the coming of Christ and the rapture are PostTrib

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Thus this coming and being changed = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Thus this coming and gathering = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

Revelation 19:11 ¶And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Thus this coming = PostTrib = according to Matthew 24:29

One cannot find one coming of Christ in the future that is meaning before Matthew 24:29 rather than after. If there was a coming of Christ before Matthew 24:29, Matthew 24 itself would have recorded it.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together

Verse 27 undeniably proves Christ has not come again, in any sense, prior to when these verses are meaning. Verse 27 did not happen, in any sense, prior to the beginning of great tribulation. BTW, all those coming passages submitted above, how many comings should we assume are meant? Just one in total? Or numerous comings, thus at different times? I guess it depends on who you ask. You ask a PostTribber that and the answer will be Just one in total. You ask a Pretribber that and the answer will be---more than one coming that happens at different times.

Computers, for example, which are not even God, have the ability to multi task. But God Himself does not have the ability to multi task? Imagine that, computers can do things that even God can't do. That based on if Preterib is to be believed.

Multitasking means doing more than one task or job at the exact same time, or rapidly switching your attention back and forth between different activities

QUOTE
"Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together

Verse 27 undeniably proves Christ has not come again, in any sense, prior to when these verses are meaning. Verse 27 did not happen, in any sense, prior to the beginning of great tribulation. BTW, all those coming passages submitted above, how many comings should we assume are meant? Just one in total? "

Lol.
WE SEE 3 COMINGS AS CLEAR AS DAY.
You are using all the conjecture you can muster to convince yourself those 3 comings are irrelevant.
You are literally casting down scripture.

Your basis is clear , " how many comings should we assume are meant"?

There it is.
Your doctrine of many many assumptions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol
You like using that word liar huh?

He probably doesn't like using it, but what else can he call it when you continually claim that post-tribs aren't providing any verses to back up our view when that is clearly a lie?

You think spewing lies makes you right?

What did he lie about exactly?

You posted a verse that AFTER THE TRIB there is a gathering where Jesus sends angels and does not participate.

That is how He participates. He commands His angels to gather the elect. What do you think, that He's supposed to gather them all Himself?