The rich man and the beggar at his gate?

[Renniks]

only you cannot Quote that, right, bc it is not true, sorry

"they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

 

[bbyrd009]

I just did.
Acts 1:9-12 Jesus ascended to heaven.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

We are cock-sure, i tell you, and even wish we were already dead and partying with Jesus

and "Jesus ascended to heaven" was of course not the subject anyway
but ty appreciate the responses ok

 

[Renniks]

nope, not in there either, dang!

Did you cut it out of your Bible then?

 

[bbyrd009]

"they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

oh, sorry, i meant you cannot Quote that from the Bible

 

[Renniks]

oh, sorry, i meant you cannot Quote that from the Bible

I just did.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did you cut it out of your Bible then?

have a nice day, ok Renniks? If you Quote the actual v ill respond though

 

[VictoryinJesus]

All this is a beautiful illustration of God's grace, but what does it have to do with people who are already in hell?

Zechariah 3:1-4 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [3] Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. [4] And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


Plucked from where?

 

[bbyrd009]

I just did.

2 Kings 2:11 Lexicon: As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
that is shamayim Rennicks, "sky" iow, "the heavens," not what we now call "heaven" at all wadr, except in misleading english and other latinate (Roman, iow) translations. The ancient Israelites did not even have our concept of a place called heaven in an afterlife, i guess

so i mean yes, one can squint real hard and Quote only English and sort of get there, i admit that ok
but obviously then
No one has ever gone up to heaven
is made into a lie, and wadr that is the "heaven" we wish to invoke, not the other, right?

 

[Enoch111]

What has and is being said (unless I’ve misunderstood) is a denial “no” Lazarus was not raised. “No” Christ was not raised. “They have Moses and the prophets let them hear them” ...then why is the New Testament given? “The Revelation of Jesus Christ”?

VIJ, it seems that you are thoroughly confused about this subject. So let's clear the air.

1. The beggar Lazarus is NOT the Lazarus who was raised from the dead (a wealthy man, the brother of Martha and Mary). Those are two different people and should not be confused.

2. Christ was indeed raised from the dead, but the nation of Israel -- particularly the Jewish religious leaders -- did NOT repent. Which proved the words of Abraham to the Rich Man.

3. According to Abraham (and a truthful statement) Moses and the Prophets (the Hebrew Tanakh or our Old Testament) were sufficient to bring any Jew to repentance. No one needed someone to go from Hades and preach to them. Therefore the brothers of the Rich Man did not need any miraculous appearance of any person. If they could not believe their Hebrew Bible, they would not believe anything.

4. This has nothing to do with the New Testament, since the incident was before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

What does it look like now ...in your understanding? Does the gulf “breach”...the wide expanse or divide still remain?

As I have stated many times in different threads, after the resurrection of Christ, the righteous dead DO NOT go to Sheol/Hades. Christ took all those in "Abraham's Bosom" (a metaphor for the OT saints) to Heaven upon His resurrection, and they are all in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24).

Therefore only the unrighteous dead go to Hades, and that great gulf or chasm means nothing. Perhaps it has even been removed, since there is no need for it.

All the New Testament saints since Stephen (and all Christians since then) go directly to Heaven to be with Christ. (No one sleeps six feet under. Soul Sleep is a myth. The body simply becomes dust, and there are no spirits occupying or haunting graveyards).

 

[Renniks]

Zechariah 3:1-4 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [3] Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. [4] And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


Plucked from where?

Not hell, in the sense of some one already being in hell and plucked out. Joshua was never in hell.
In Amos 4:11
Jerusalem is a wooden firebrand, a people punished but never entirely consumed by their punishment. They are rescued and spared by Yahveh Himself.
We are all brands plucked from the burning, deserving punishment, but spared by God's grace. Joshua sinned plenty, but was given grace. He was never literally in hell.

 

[Renniks]

have a nice day, ok Renniks? If you Quote the actual v ill respond though

I did.

 

[Renniks]

2 Kings 2:11 Lexicon: As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
that is shamayim Rennicks, "sky" iow, "the heavens," not what we now call "heaven" at all wadr, except in misleading english and other latinate (Roman, iow) translations. The ancient Israelites did not even have our concept of a place called heaven in an afterlife, i guess

so i mean yes, one can squint real hard and Quote only English and sort of get there, i admit that ok
but obviously then
No one has ever gone up to heaven
is made into a lie, and wadr that is the "heaven" we wish to invoke, not the other, right?

So Elijah just hovered in the physical sky forever? No, he ascended just as Jesus later would, only Elijah needed a chariot of fire, because he was a rock star prophet.

 

[Enoch111]

So Elijah just hovered in the physical sky forever?

Why are there so many absurdities being posted? The Bible clearly says that Elijah went to Heaven. That is God's Heaven. It may be hard for some to believe that Elijah was taken supernaturally to Heaven, or that God's Heaven actually exists outside of space. But God does not lie.

 

[101G]

James 3:6 KJV
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, Second the rich man did asked for some water on his "TONGUE", and water is the rightious word of God. and water is the antiphysis to fire

oh by the way I have finish my first leg of my research on to term "Son", and "son" as to how they relate to the use of either G5207 υἱός huios (hwiy-yos'), or G5043 τέκνον teknon (tek'-non). so for, it been very interesting. I have 2 to 3 more methods of research I must do before I'm satisfied with the results. it take time to verify ever lead and word, and to track down evey instance of use. so when finish I'll let you know.

PICJAG.

 

[Waiting on him]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, Second the rich man did asked for some water on his "TONGUE", and water is the rightious word of God. and water is the antiphysis to fire

oh by the way I have finish my first leg of my research on to term "Son", and "son" as to how they relate to the use of either G5207 υἱός huios (hwiy-yos'), or G5043 τέκνον teknon (tek'-non). so for, it been very interesting. I have 2 to 3 more methods of research I must do before I'm satisfied with the results. it take time to verify ever lead and word, and to track down evey instance of use. so when finish I'll let you know.

PICJAG.

Awesome!

 

[Waiting on him]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, Second the rich man did asked for some water on his "TONGUE", and water is the rightious word of God. and water is the antiphysis to fire

oh by the way I have finish my first leg of my research on to term "Son", and "son" as to how they relate to the use of either G5207 υἱός huios (hwiy-yos'), or G5043 τέκνον teknon (tek'-non). so for, it been very interesting. I have 2 to 3 more methods of research I must do before I'm satisfied with the results. it take time to verify ever lead and word, and to track down evey instance of use. so when finish I'll let you know.

PICJAG.

We are beginning to see that there is much Scripture that harmonizes with this prophetic word that Jesus spoke and fulfilled.

Also all the arguments that come against it only solidify it more.

 

[101G]

Why are there so many absurdities being posted? The Bible clearly says that Elijah went to Heaven. That is God's Heaven. It may be hard for some to believe that Elijah was taken supernaturally to Heaven, or that God's Heaven actually exists outside of space. But God does not lie.

boy oh boy reading some of the post on Elijah taken up into heaven. nonsense, Elijah did not go into the third heaven but in the sky. and it was by a whirlwind. and no, he didn't step on nor into any chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and buckle up for the journey to heaven where God, and or the angels are at, again, no, nonsense. people cannot read, lets see what really happen, 2 Kings 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
There we have it, #1. Elijah was not taken up by a chariot of fire, people need to quit lying. he went up by a "whirlwind into heaven", and not by any chariot of fire. the chariot of fire only parted, or separate them.

heaven here is the Hebrew word,
H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) n-m.
שָׁמֶה shameh (shaw-meh') [unused singular]
1. the sky (as aloft).
2. (the dual form) perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve.
[from an unused root meaning to be lofty]
KJV: air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

how do we know that Elijah didn't go to the third heaven? because a search party was formed to search for him. scripture, 2 Kings 2:16 "And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send."
2 Kings 2:17 "And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not."
2 Kings 2:18 "And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?"

Well, this was nothing new because it had happen before, listen, "Obadiah brings Ahab to Elijah".
1 Kings 18:9 "And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me?"
1 Kings 18:10 "As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not."
1 Kings 18:11 "And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here."
1 Kings 18:12 "And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth." (STOP, one need to read that again).
1 Kings 18:13 "Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?"
1 Kings 18:14 "And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me."
1 Kings 18:15 "And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day."
1 Kings 18:16 "So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah."

now there are two other events like this where the Spirit of the Lord takes some one up and MOVE them from one place to another. Ezekiel 1:4 "And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." well, well, well, the same fiery chariot. and what did the Spirit of the Lord do here? Ezekiel 3:12 "Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place."
Ezekiel 3:13 "I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing."
Ezekiel 3:14 "So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me."

Ezekiel 8:3 "And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy."

here what happen was that he was "TRANSPORTED" to another place on the planet. just as Enoch was, listen, Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
here "Translated" is the Greek word,
G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to transfer.
2. (literally) to transport.
3. (by implication) to exchange.
4. (reflexively) to change sides.
5. (figuratively) to pervert.
[from G3326 and G5087]
KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn
Root(s): G3326, G5087

BINGO, neither Elijah nor Enoch was taken to the heaven where God is at. NOW, one more in the NT. "the angel sends Philip to teach and baptize the Ethiopian Eunuch". Acts 8:26 "And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert." so Philip meets the Ethiopian Eunuch instruct him, and baptize him and now watch what happens, Acts 8:39 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."
Acts 8:40 "But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea."

the same the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip.
caught away: G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)
Root(s): G138

so no one have went into the heaven where God is at.

PICJAG.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)
Root(s): G138

I’m not good with word study like you are. What of: Jude 1:23 Interlinear: and some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.

Strong's Greek: 726. ἁρπάζω (harpazó) -- to seize, catch up, snatch away

 

[Renniks]

boy oh boy reading some of the post on Elijah taken up into heaven. nonsense, Elijah did not go into the third heaven but in the sky. and it was by a whirlwind. and no, he didn't step on nor into any chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and buckle up for the journey to heaven where God, and or the angels are at, again, no, nonsense. people cannot read, lets see what really happen, 2 Kings 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
There we have it, #1. Elijah was not taken up by a chariot of fire, people need to quit lying. he went up by a "whirlwind into heaven", and not by any chariot of fire. the chariot of fire only parted, or separate them.

heaven here is the Hebrew word,
H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) n-m.
שָׁמֶה shameh (shaw-meh') [unused singular]
1. the sky (as aloft).
2. (the dual form) perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve.
[from an unused root meaning to be lofty]
KJV: air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

how do we know that Elijah didn't go to the third heaven? because a search party was formed to search for him. scripture, 2 Kings 2:16 "And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send."
2 Kings 2:17 "And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not."
2 Kings 2:18 "And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?"

Well, this was nothing new because it had happen before, listen, "Obadiah brings Ahab to Elijah".
1 Kings 18:9 "And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me?"
1 Kings 18:10 "As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not."
1 Kings 18:11 "And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here."
1 Kings 18:12 "And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth." (STOP, one need to read that again).
1 Kings 18:13 "Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?"
1 Kings 18:14 "And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me."
1 Kings 18:15 "And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day."
1 Kings 18:16 "So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah."

now there are two other events like this where the Spirit of the Lord takes some one up and MOVE them from one place to another. Ezekiel 1:4 "And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." well, well, well, the same fiery chariot. and what did the Spirit of the Lord do here? Ezekiel 3:12 "Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place."
Ezekiel 3:13 "I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing."
Ezekiel 3:14 "So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me."

Ezekiel 8:3 "And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy."

here what happen was that he was "TRANSPORTED" to another place on the planet. just as Enoch was, listen, Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
here "Translated" is the Greek word,
G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to transfer.
2. (literally) to transport.
3. (by implication) to exchange.
4. (reflexively) to change sides.
5. (figuratively) to pervert.
[from G3326 and G5087]
KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn
Root(s): G3326, G5087

BINGO, neither Elijah nor Enoch was taken to the heaven where God is at. NOW, one more in the NT. "the angel sends Philip to teach and baptize the Ethiopian Eunuch". Acts 8:26 "And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert." so Philip meets the Ethiopian Eunuch instruct him, and baptize him and now watch what happens, Acts 8:39 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."
Acts 8:40 "But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea."

the same the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip.
caught away: G726 ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pa'-zō) v.
to seize.
{in various applications}
[from a derivative of G138]
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)
Root(s): G138

so no one have went into the heaven where God is at.

PICJAG.

Lol, that has to be the most wild and reckless biblical interpretation ever. If Elijah went up just for a ride, where did he land?

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Whether they bodily entered heaven or not, that was it, they ascended to God and didn't return.

I don't understand why people add all kinds of figurative meanings to actual events in the Bible.