The rich man and the beggar at his gate?

[Willie T]

Ummmm......Ok. So you don't think it is a parable. You think it really happened?

Then you have to invent some way to circumvent the Scripture of "no one ever having gone to Heaven before." Doing that, you enter directly into the Catholic idea of Purgatory. And since we want to discount that mindset.... if you want to sidestep Purgatory somehow.... you still have to have some kind of waiting place where there is mental and physical consciousness and total awareness.... and live bodies experiencing either comfort or pain.

Then, you have to face the fact that you have decreed people to be already both condemned and saved, at the same time, long before the JUDGMENT ever happens.

It becomes a total confused mess when you try to make this Parable into a "real" story that happened while Jesus was still walking on this Earth, and The Cross had not even occurred yet.

 

[DPMartin]

If or before anyone answers please, think of Job.

if you're comparing Job to the rich man in the Lord's Parable you'd be mistaken the Lord declared Job a perfect and an upright man before any thing happened to Job and the rich man in the Lord's Parable isn't a righteous man in the Lord's sight.


Job 1:8　 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?　

 

[Waiting on him]

if you're comparing Job to the rich man in the Lord's Parable you'd be mistaken the Lord declared Job a perfect and an upright man before any thing happened to Job and the rich man in the Lord's Parable isn't a righteous man in the Lord's sight.


Job 1:8　 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?　

Okay, in the parable the rich man received only good his entire life Lazarus only evil.

Job 2:10 KJV
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Why do you suppose the rich man of the parable never received any evil from God while alive?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Why would a believer think Jesus told a fictitious story? Think again!
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Waiting on him]

Why would a believer think Jesus told a fictitious story? Think again!
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So what's your understanding as too why the rich man only received good his whole life?

 

[Waiting on him]

Hi,

In context that passage from Revelation has to do with Babylon sooooo I don't see it fitting at all with the rich man and Lazarus parable. Please explain....I must be missing something.

Would you not say this was the attitude of the rich man?

 

[GISMYS_7]

So what's your understanding as too why the rich man only received good his whole life?

Was he smart, hard worker,

So what's your understanding as too why the rich man only received good his whole life?

We know nothing about the rich man other than that he was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day but he ended up in hell so he must have rejected God and did little to help the poor beggar named Lazarus.

 

[Waiting on him]

Was he smart, hard worker,


We know nothing about the rich man other than that he was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day but he ended up in hell so he must have rejected God and did little to help the poor beggar named Lazarus.

Revelation 17:4 KJV
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
This is strikingly familiar.

 

[friend of]

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
This is strikingly familiar

Familiar, but I fail to see how its connected to Lazarus story

 

[Waiting on him]

Familiar, but I fail to see how its connected to Lazarus story

Maybe not connected, but still very similar.

 

[Waiting on him]

Familiar, but I fail to see how its connected to Lazarus story

Why do you believe the rich man only received good his whole life? It would kinda seem that God looked on him with favor, but doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[friend of]

God places the rich and prosperous on slippery ground

 

[Waiting on him]

God places the rich and prosperous on slippery ground

Yes , but he says anything that a righteous man puts his hand to will prosper, or something like that.

 

[farouk]

Why do you believe the rich man only received good his whole life? It would kinda seem that God looked on him with favor, but doesn't seem to be the case.

@Waiting on him
Big distinction between spiritual prosperity and material prosperity...

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus did raise Lazarus from the dead. I wonder if he went and talked to those 5 brothers?

You seem to be a little confused. Lazarus the beggar was not the same as Lazarus, the wealthy brother of Martha and Mary. These were two different men with the same name.

Abraham said they would not even listen, when Lazarus, one raised from the dead, went to see them.

It is noteworthy that even though Abraham was at least 480 years before Moses, he spoke of Moses and the Prophets (the Hebrew Tanakh). No doubt God had revealed this to him.

Abraham prophecied, and Jesus confirmed it, that it takes more than dead people to convince a person of their need of Salvation.

Again, you seem to have missed the point. It was not about *dead people* but the dead coming to life and visiting the living to warn them about Hades and Hell.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not really sure how 5 relates to Judaism?

Lazarus = Eleazer i guess, and me neither?

good Qs up there above, imo

 

[Marymog]

Then you have to invent some way to circumvent the Scripture of "no one ever having gone to Heaven before." Doing that, you enter directly into the Catholic idea of Purgatory. And since we want to discount that mindset.... if you want to sidestep Purgatory somehow.... you still have to have some kind of waiting place where there is mental and physical consciousness and total awareness.... and live bodies experiencing either comfort or pain.

Then, you have to face the fact that you have decreed people to be already both condemned and saved, at the same time, long before the JUDGMENT ever happens.

It becomes a total confused mess when you try to make this Parable into a "real" story that happened while Jesus was still walking on this Earth, and The Cross had not even occurred yet.

Hi Willie,

It seems that it is already a “confused mess” since I have read several different interpretations of that parable on this forum and from ‘Bible experts’ online. :)

I hold the belief (in general) that in the parable Lazarus was rewarded for his virtuous acceptance of poverty. The rich man was punished for his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth. PERHAPS there are multiple meanings to the parable?

I am no way suggesting that it was a “real” story however it is the only parable that Jesus named a person. There are some things in the parable that don’t match up with what we know about Lazarus but Jesus did use the name of a person he knew so to me that makes the parable more intriguing.

I don’t understand how “The Cross had not even occurred yet” negates the parable from the possibility of being a real story.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Would you not say this was the attitude of the rich man?

I’m sorry......I do not see the connection.

 

[Willie T]

Hi Willie,

It seems that it is already a “confused mess” since I have read several different interpretations of that parable on this forum and from ‘Bible experts’ online. :)

I hold the belief (in general) that in the parable Lazarus was rewarded for his virtuous acceptance of poverty. The rich man was punished for his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth. PERHAPS there are multiple meanings to the parable?

I am no way suggesting that it was a “real” story however it is the only parable that Jesus named a person. There are some things in the parable that don’t match up with what we know about Lazarus but Jesus did use the name of a person he knew so to me that makes the parable more intriguing.

I don’t understand how “The Cross had not even occurred yet” negates the parable from the possibility of being a real story.

Mary

Most of us are blinded into thinking the condemnation of "sin" is considered by a particular action — worse or less evil by the vileness of a specific thing we "do." Thus, you hear us consistently judging others and comparing ourselves with them by the "degree" of sinner THEY are because of the selected "sin" we choose to point out in THEIR lives. The awful "sin" that WE are too good to ever commit. ("God, I thank you that I am righteous, not like THAT OTHER man...)

Jesus didn't go to the cross to hang there forever, waiting in eagerness to "hammer" each individual sinful action we "DO" like a "Whack-A-Mole" at Chuckie Cheese', as it crops up in our lives. He died to correct attitude.... thought... a way of living life.

And this is what the Jewish Rich Man was not seeing. He had been taught (by mistaken elders in his religion) that he and all the tribes of his brothers needed only rely upon the fact that they were born under the lucky and blessed star of Judaism, and they were automatically guaranteed entrance into a blissful Everafter because of their Lineage.

He got surprised. That was not the case, and he wanted Abraham to warn the rest of the Jews, his brothers, that just being a Jew wasn't going to cut it.

 

[Waiting on him]

Lazarus = Eleazer i guess, and me neither?

good Qs up there above, imo

In genesis this Eleazer is a servant in Abraham's house