The Sabbath Day

[mailmandan]

The plane is still flying over your head. To say I believe in “Type 2 Works Salvation” is a false term or name because such a term does not include my belief in the Bible that I believe that we are also saved by God’s grace. So you label my belief falsely even though you understand my belief. Your term “Type 2 Works Salvation” leaves out my belief in that we are also saved by God’s grace. That is why your term is a false accusation to what I actually believe (even though you appear to understand that I believe in two aspects of salvation).

"Type 2 works salvation" is not a false term and it fits your doctrine perfectly and does not leave out your belief that we are also "initially" saved by God's grace through faith, but it also "includes" works in the equation: Salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS is what you teach, which is "type 2 works salvation." Just admit it, own it and deal with it.

Look friend. I just showed you that the same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in the same verse (James 2:24).

Doesn't matter because James is talking about an empty profession of faith/death faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Says/claims (key word) to have faith, but has no works. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. So as I already showed you, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. So once again if "justified by works" meant "accounted as righteous" by works in James 2:24, then we have a contradiction here and there are no contradictions in God's word. We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. Not hard to understand. Just hard for you to accept.

That would mean you are saying that we are not accounted righteous by faith by admitting to this dumb kind of interpretation in James 2:24.

We are not accounted as righteous by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - (barren of works) because it's not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14) If someone merely says-claims they have faith yet lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

But of course you must do the OSAS dance at any cost (even if it renders the text as illogical and useless).

This has nothing to do with OSAS and everything to do with genuine faith that results in evidential works vs. an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. The text is not illogical and useless once you come to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

First, like before, you are unable to see that your belief is contradictory here.

You are unable to see otherwise.

You say that works is evidence of salvation.

Works are evidence of salvation and are not the means of salvation.

That means that you need to have works in order to truly show you are saved (Meaning works is a part of the salvation equation).

Works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. God knows the condition of our hearts. He knows whether or not we are trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) even before we produce good works as new born babes in Christ. So works are not part of the salvation equation of "saved by grace through faith, not works." (Ephesians 2:8,9) We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

If this was not the case, then no works would be necessary to show evidence that you were saved. So your belief here is not consistent.

We show our faith by our works, (James 2:18) but we do not establish it. You have to be saved FIRST in order to show evidence that you are saved, so my belief is not inconsistent at all. You just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

It would be more consistent of your false belief if you were to label the book of James as an epistle of straw like Luther did (if indeed Luther believed this statement all the way unto his death).

I certainly don't label the book of James an epistle of straw. I understand what James is teaching and James 2:14-24 is in perfect harmony with Romans 4:2-6 as I already demonstrated multiple times.

But currently, you hold to a contradiction and you are either unwilling or unable to see your own contradiction.

It's you who holds to a contradiction and you are either unable to see your contradiction or just too stubborn to admit that you are wrong. If you can't get this critical, foundational doctrine right, then you are in serious trouble and you will continue to stumble through the rest of scripture as well. The end result of your error leads to 'type 2 works salvation' along with confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and getting swept away in the 'holier than thou' superiority facade. Until you get this most critical, foundational doctrine right that salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) then our conversation will remain one big waste of time. If you choose to continue to ignore this critical, foundational doctrine and insist on getting back to your 'type 2 works salvation' - 'holier than thou' - 'anti-OSAS' marathon (and we all know how much you love to hear yourself talk ) then it's time for me to shake the dust off my shoes and move on. I do hope and pray that one day your eyes and heart will be open to the truth.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

'the mark of the beast' . it is everywhere . here above . in print . NOT TO BE MISSED! the worship of the DAY - or, of "DAYS" . the "SUPERSTITIOUS OBSERVATION OF DAYS" - 'paratehreohsis hehmerohn' . no possibility one might miss it . EVER SEEN in the company of its identical twin - no, as the polycephaly – as the transgression of at once the FOURTH and the SECOND Commandments.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Depends what you mean by "under". But if by "under the law' you are suggesting that I believe Christians are not obliged to obey God's Commandments, you are the one sadly mistaken.

Perhaps you posted it sarcastically Brake but I thought you meant what you said. You posted: So the law has ended. God no longer has any standard of morality by which to judge mankind. Mankind now has no standard to which he can look to in order to aspire to. The government of God no longer has a law by which to rule the Kingdom. And because there is no law, therefore there can be no sin. And because love is the fulfilling of the law, and the foundation upon which the law operated, I guess that means love had no means by which it can be defined and expressed other than through emotion and sex.

Which of course indicated to me that you thought God had no laws (commandments) so it looks like we are in agreement that there are rules and regulations for Christians. It is hard to read body language into written posts, so sometimes I misunderstand the meaning of what an individual is trying to say. Glad we agree that we need to be obedient to the laws that govern Christians.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No sir, went into force in eternity in the Council of the Almighty.

Makes no sense Ger, Jesus made the covenant on Nisan 14, 33 and holy spirit was poured out upon 120 on Pentecost of the same year, that outpouring of holy spirit shows us God's acceptance of the sacrifice offered and the new covenant made with the holy ones. How do you see it differently?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Type 2 works salvation" is not a false term and it fits your doctrine perfectly and does not leave out your belief that we are also "initially" saved by God's grace through faith, but it also "includes" works in the equation: Salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS is what you teach, which is "type 2 works salvation." Just admit it, own it and deal with it.

Okay. Plane still flying over your head here. Tell me: Where are the words that say “Salvation by Faith or by God’s grace” included in your term called: “Type 2 Works Salvation”? In short, it does not exist. In other words, if you labeled my belief as “Saved by Grace + Works,” it would be closer to the labeling of my belief. But even that would not be accurate because I believe in being saved by “God’s grace + Sanctification by Faith.” But I don’t see the words grace or faith in your phrase “Type 2 Works Salvation” Label. I don’t see Sanctification in your label. That is why you are accusing me falsely by using such a term. You are pigeon holing me with a term that is not accurate to what I actually believe (even though you appear to understand that I believe in two aspects of salvation).

I believe Sanctification is the secondary aspect of salvation. This is more than just good works, and it involves…

#1. The work of God done through the believer (Whereby they boast in God and not themselves).
#2. Putting away sin.
#3. Good works.
#4. Keeping oneself pure and unspotted from the world.
#5. Living holy.

Type 2 Works Salvation only speaks of works and no grace. This label implies I believe in only works and no grace (Which is false). Then again, I should not be surprised you are accusing me falsely of something I don’t believe. Jesus said we would be accused falsely.

Matthew 5:11
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”

Doesn't matter because James is talking about an empty profession of faith/death faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Says/claims (key word) to have faith, but has no works. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. So as I already showed you, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. So once again if "justified by works" meant "accounted as righteous" by works in James 2:24, then we have a contradiction here and there are no contradictions in God's word. We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. Not hard to understand. Just hard for you to accept.

We are not accounted as righteous by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - (barren of works) because it's not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14) If someone merely says-claims they have faith yet lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

This has nothing to do with OSAS and everything to do with genuine faith that results in evidential works vs. an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. The text is not illogical and useless once you come to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

You are unable to see otherwise.

Works are evidence of salvation and are not the means of salvation.

Works are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. God knows the condition of our hearts. He knows whether or not we are trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) even before we produce good works as new born babes in Christ. So works are not part of the salvation equation of "saved by grace through faith, not works." (Ephesians 2:8,9) We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

We show our faith by our works, (James 2:18) but we do not establish it. You have to be saved FIRST in order to show evidence that you are saved, so my belief is not inconsistent at all. You just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

I certainly don't label the book of James an epistle of straw. I understand what James is teaching and James 2:14-24 is in perfect harmony with Romans 4:2-6 as I already demonstrated multiple times.

It's you who holds to a contradiction and you are either unable to see your contradiction or just too stubborn to admit that you are wrong. If you can't get this critical, foundational doctrine right, then you are in serious trouble and you will continue to stumble through the rest of scripture as well. The end result of your error leads to 'type 2 works salvation' along with confusing 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and getting swept away in the 'holier than thou' superiority facade. Until you get this most critical, foundational doctrine right that salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) then our conversation will remain one big waste of time. If you choose to continue to ignore this critical, foundational doctrine and insist on getting back to your 'type 2 works salvation' - 'holier than thou' - 'anti-OSAS' marathon (and we all know how much you love to hear yourself talk ) then it's time for me to shake the dust off my shoes and move on. I do hope and pray that one day your eyes and heart will be open to the truth.

You obviously are not carefully looking at the points that I made with the Bible, and you are only blindly repeating what you believe the Bible says (of which it does not say). So there is no real point to repeat myself here with points I already made that you ignore.

May God’s love shine upon you.

 

[BarneyFife]

Why isn't it accepted that the Sabbath is nothing more than a day off? In ancient times it was unknown, which is why it was instituted by God. As Jesus clearly showed, sometimes it is necessary or advisable to do "work" on the sabbath, such as recuing animals and healing people. Should hospitals and emergency services not operate on Saturdays?

And I don't know why you can't remember the discussions we've had about this in the past (maybe you subconsciously don't want to?). The Sevent-day Adventist church has the largest medical system of any Christian denomination in the world besides the Catholic church, and every one of our hospitals is open on Saturday. The Blue Zone of Loma Linda, CA has our most notable Hospital, named after the municipality itself. National Geographic Magazine has had several featured articles about the Loma Linda community and its effects on the health of their neighbors. Adventist live 8-10 (healthy) years longer than other folks because we obey what God has prescribed for health in His Word. It has been demonstrated that Sabbath-keeping is instrumental in this extension of longevity.

It's simple:

Obey God and He blesses you.

And the glory is all His!

The Seventh-day Adventist church in this sunny pocket of Southern California was founded in the 1840s. The church flourished through the 20th century – and so did its

members who view health as central to their faith.


Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America’s blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don’t smoke or drink alcohol.


Read more below about the lessons that Loma Linda, California can teach you about longevity.


How can you live like the American longevity all-stars? Try these tactics practiced in Loma Linda to live measurably longer.


Find a sanctuary in time.

A weekly break from the rigors of daily life, the 24-hour Sabbath provides a time to focus on family, God, camaraderie, and nature. Adventists claim this relieves their stress, strengthens social networks, and provides consistent exercise.


Maintain a healthy body mass index (BMI).

Adventists with healthy BMI’s (meaning they have an appropriate weight for their heights) who keep active and eat meat sparingly, if at all, have lower blood pressure, lower blood cholesterol , and less cardiovascular disease than heavier Americans with higher BMIs.


Get regular, moderate exercise.

The Adventist Health Survey (AHS) shows that you don’t need to be a marathoner to maximize your life expectancy. Getting regular, low-intensity exercise like daily walks appear to help reduce your chance of having heart disease and certain cancers.


Spend time with like-minded friends.

Adventists tend to spend time with lots of other Adventists. They find well-being by sharing each other’s values and supporting each other’s habits.


Snack on nuts.

Adventists who consume nuts at least five times a week have about half the risk of heart disease and live about two years longer than those who don’t. At least four major studies have confirmed that eating nuts has an impact on health and life expectancy.


Give something back.

Like many faiths, the Seventh-day Adventist Church encourages and provides opportunities for its members to volunteer. People like centenarian Marge Jetton stay active, find sense of purpose, and stave off depression by focusing on helping others.


Eat meat in moderation.

Many Adventists follow a vegetarian diet. The AHS shows that consuming fruits and vegetables and whole grains seems to be protective against a wide variety of cancers. For those who prefer to eat some meat, Adventist recommend small portions served as a side dish rather than as the main meal.


Eat an early, light dinner.

“Eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a pauper,” American nutritionist Adelle Davis is said to have recommended –an attitude also reflected in Adventist practices. A light dinner early in the evening avoids flooding the body with calories during the inactive parts of the day. It seems to promote better sleep and a lower BMI.


Put more plants in your diet.

In support of a biblical diet of grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables, Adventists cite Genesis 1:29: “And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.” The Adventists encourage a “well-balanced diet” including nuts, fruits, and legumes, low in sugar, salt, and refined grains. Studies have shown nonsmoking Adventists who ate 2 or more servings of fruit per day had about 70 percent fewer lung cancers than nonsmokers who ate fruit once or twice a week. Adventists who ate legumes such as peas and beans 3 times a week had a 30 to 40 percent reduction in colon cancer.

Adventists women who consumed tomatoes at least 3 or 4 times a week reduced their chance of getting ovarian cancer by 70 percent over those who ate tomatoes less often. Eating a lot of tomatoes also seemed to have an effect on reducing prostate cancer for men. A new study has found that adherents to this way of life have the nation’s lowest rates of heart disease and diabetes and very low rates of obesity.


Drink plenty of water.

The AHS suggests that men who drank 5 or 6 daily glasses of water had a substantial reduction in the risk of a fatal heart attack –60 to 70 percent–compared to those who drank considerably less.


This is an excerpt from Blue Zones: Lessons For Living Longer From The People Who’ve Lived The Longest by Dan Buettner, copyright 2008, all rights reserved.



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[mailmandan]

Okay. Plane still flying over your head here. Tell me: Where are the words that say “Salvation by Faith or by God’s grace” included in your term called: “Type 2 Works Salvation”? In short, it does not exist. In other words, if you labeled my belief as “Saved by Grace + Works,” it would be closer to the labeling of my belief. But even that would not be accurate because I believe in being saved by “God’s grace + Sanctification by Faith.” But I don’t see the words grace or faith in your phrase “Type 2 Works Salvation” Label. I don’t see Sanctification in your label. That is why you are accusing me falsely by using such a term. You are pigeon holing me with a term that is not accurate to what I actually believe (even though you appear to understand that I believe in two aspects of salvation).

You previously said that we are saved by grace through faith + the sanctification process WHICH INCLUDES WORKS and again here you just admitted that you teach "Saved by Grace + Works. Hence, "type 2 works salvation." You start out with saved by grace through faith, then finish with works. It's so obvious. No false accusations from me. You just can't see it.

I believe Sanctification is the secondary aspect of salvation. This is more than just good works, and it involves…

#1. The work of God done through the believer (Whereby they boast in God and not themselves).
#2. Putting away sin.
#3. Good works.
#4. Keeping oneself pure and unspotted from the world.
#5. Living holy.

There it is again. Secondary aspect of salvation - "type 2 works salvation" with a strong hint of sinless perfection.

Type 2 Works Salvation only speaks of works and no grace. This label implies I believe in only works and no grace (Which is false). Then again, I should not be surprised you are accusing me falsely of something I don’t believe. Jesus said we would be accused falsely.

It starts out with grace and faith, but finishes with works. Hence, "type 2 works salvation." No false accusations from me. Only straw man arguments from you.

Matthew 5:11
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”

Oh how you love to play the martyr.

You obviously are not carefully looking at the points that I made with the Bible, and you are only blindly repeating what you believe the Bible says (of which it does not say). So there is no real point to repeat myself here with points I already made that you ignore.

I have looked at your points more carefully than you think and have heard similar arguments from Roman Catholics multiple times, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1) Good luck with your quest to be saved by sinless perfection, holy living and good works - "type 2 works salvation."

So where does Christ's finished work of redemption fit into your equation and just how much putting away of sin, holy living and good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you? Good luck with that. At the judgment will you be in the group that says - "Lord, Lord didn't WE or Lord, Lord, didn't YOU?"

 

[GRACE ambassador]

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PENALTY of sin (glorification)

Amen! I think you mean: "3...PRESENCE," Correct?
Same Three I have here:

GRACE And Peace...

 

[mailmandan]

Amen! I think you mean: "3...PRESENCE," Correct?
Same Three I have here:

GRACE And Peace...

Yes, "PRESENCE." Thank you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Sadly, the entire protestant world with very very few exceptions is giving more than heed to Rome, but it's obeying Rome above scripture by observing Sunday.

THEY DOING much more than that . THEY changing the entire gospel that saves into a false all inclusive many path
lie . This generation has become all about , EVERYONE has their own path to GOD nonsense . NOPE JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY
and YA GOTTA BELEIVE IN HIM , CONFESSING HIM by mouth and believing GOD rose HIM from the dead to be saved .
SO why is now right at SEVENTY , take note i said SEVENTY not seven . SEVENTY percent of CHRISTENDOM
now believes GOD is fine with all paths , all religoins . Talk about a massive delusion . But it has swept the land .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You previously said that we are saved by grace through faith + the sanctification process WHICH INCLUDES WORKS and again here you just admitted that you teach "Saved by Grace + Works. Hence, "type 2 works salvation." You start out with saved by grace through faith, then finish with works. It's so obvious. No false accusations from me. You just can't see it.

Yes, your “Type 2 Works Salvation” Label is a false accusation because one could not enter the Sanctification Process without first being saved by God's grace without works (in the 1st aspect of salvation). Also, if a believer happens to unintentionally stumble into sin on rare occasion, they don't do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus Christ to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). Again, this is solely God's grace that takes care of sin and not a work. So foundationally we are still saved by God's grace and not in anything that we can boast in ourselves in doing.

You also fail to understand that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Paul was able to labor more than his brethren not because of himself but because of the grace of God that was within him (1 Corinthians 15:10). The reason Jesus gave Himself for us was so that we might be sanctified with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27). The harlot could not stop kissing Jesus' feet because she was forgiven of her past life of sin (Luke 7:36-50). She was forgiven much and so she loved much. But the point here is that God's grace and love moves and motivates believers in the Sanctification Process. For without Grace, they could not move or even enter Sanctification to begin with. Grace is essential to making Sanctification possible. It is by our recognizing that God has forgiven us of our past life of sin that moves us to love Him. Grace. You cannot eliminate it. Once it took place upon a person's life it has a it has a tremendous impact upon their life. They are changed because they have received even a new heart with a new spirit. Grace. It does not go away just because Sanctification has come.

Works cannot be the 1st aspect of salvation of salvation and neither can works be the sole basis alone for salvation. A person needs to have their past slate of sin forgiven them (or wiped out) which is only possible by God's grace. So again, your ignoring this truth that I believe by your false label only speaks to what Jesus said before about how others would speak evil against us falsely (Matthew 5:11). I believe this is what you are doing, dear sir. Your label is not accurate to what I believe. Your label eliminates grace, and I don't believe one can be saved without grace. Grace is the entrance gate, and it is foundational to our salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Sanctification is the secondary aspect of salvation. This is more than just good works, and it involves…

#1. The work of God done through the believer (Whereby they boast in God and not themselves).
#2. Putting away sin.
#3. Good works.
#4. Keeping oneself pure and unspotted from the world.
#5. Living holy.

There it is again. Secondary aspect of salvation - "type 2 works salvation" with a strong hint of sinless perfection.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 coupled with Romans 10:9, Romans 10:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-12, Titus 3:5, and Luke 18:9-14 proves the Initial Aspect of Salvation by God's grace and mercy without works.

2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13 proves to us the Secondary Aspect of Salvation in the Sanctification of the Spirit of God to live a holy life (Which afterwards includes works, putting away sin, keeping oneself unspotted from the world, etcetera).

This is rightly dividing on this topic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Sanctification is the secondary aspect of salvation. This is more than just good works, and it involves…

#1. The work of God done through the believer (Whereby they boast in God and not themselves).
#2. Putting away sin.
#3. Good works.
#4. Keeping oneself pure and unspotted from the world.
#5. Living holy.

There it is again. Secondary aspect of salvation - "type 2 works salvation" with a strong hint of sinless perfection.

There are three verses that teach that we are saved by both God’s grace through faith (without works), and by Sanctification (Note: The red letters are in reference to Sanctification, and the letters in blue, are in reference to being saved by God’s grace through faith without works).

Verse #1.

"...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).​

(Note: Verse 12, says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Verses 16-17 in 2 Thessalonians 2 mentions faith and works in context, as well).

Verse #2.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).​

(Note on John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" is to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in Jesus and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed).

Verse #3.

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24).​

(Note: Most Christians believe that the phrase "justified by faith" is dealing with salvation; If this is what you believe, you must then also be consistent with the use of this word "justified," and we should use this one word in the same way in relation to works in James 2:24.).

We have to understand that Paul was fighting against “Works ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace” via by those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). For if a person made circumcision for initial salvation, they would be making circumcision or the Law, or a work the foundation of their faith (i.e. Works ALONE Salvationism).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Sanctification is the secondary aspect of salvation. This is more than just good works, and it involves…

#1. The work of God done through the believer (Whereby they boast in God and not themselves).
#2. Putting away sin.
#3. Good works.
#4. Keeping oneself pure and unspotted from the world.
#5. Living holy.

There it is again. Secondary aspect of salvation - "type 2 works salvation" with a strong hint of sinless perfection.

Here is an example of faith in the Bible that is solely based on a belief alone:

Hebrews 11:3
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

In other words, it is our belief or faith in God's Word (the Holy Bible) whereby we know about how the worlds (planets) were framed by the Word of God. This is a belief alone and not any kind of action or work involved in our belief in this.

As for faith being a form of obedience:

John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...with a strong hint of sinless perfection.

I don’t believe that Entire Sanctification or Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue (Even though I believe that such a thing is possible based on what Scripture says). Believers must meet the bare minimum requirements for holy living according to the New Testament to enter the Kingdom. I believe Sinless Perfection is going beyond the bare minimum level requirements of living holy to enter the Kingdom. So again, I don’t believe Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. I don’t see all sin as the same in the Bible. Not all sin (or transgressions) condemns. You would know that if you studied the Bible more with God’s help.

Not all sins are the same. There are “sins not unto death” and “sins unto death” (1 John 5:16-17).

In Matthew 5:22 we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

Of course a believer can confess and forsake sins unto death and be forgiven (as long as they are remorseful and they do not intend to sin again). But in the “Sin and Still Be Saved” or OSAS crowd, they believe they must sin again. This is a huge problem according to Scripture if we regard sin in our heart, God will not even hear us (Psalms 66:18) (John 9:31). In other words, God will not forgive us our sin if we confess it if we are planning to just sin again tomorrow or we believe we cannot help but to sin again on a daily or weekly basis. God will not hear our prayers for forgiveness if we regard sin or iniquity in our heart. We all need to cut off sin that leads to death, and fight and battle against it to make into the Kingdom.

The devil wants you to sin; It’s not God who will agree with your sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh how you love to play the martyr.

It is written:

11 “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” (Matthew 5:11-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have looked at your points more carefully than you think and have heard similar arguments from Roman Catholics multiple times, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Sorry, I don't believe you. You are not carefully looking at my arguments.
Again, James 2:24. The same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in the same verse.
Do you believe there is a faith that justifies that does not save? This is what you have to believe if you interpret “justified” as not being salvific in James 2:24.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have looked at your points more carefully than you think and have heard similar arguments from Roman Catholics multiple times, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Sorry, some of my own studies on Sanctification is what the Lord has shown me that is unique and I have not seen Catholics bring up all of the same points I have on the topic. Catholics also have a false view of Sanctification because they also include church traditions that violate Scripture (like bowing down to statues, praying to the saints, confessing sins to a priest, forbidding to marry, elevating Mary to being a co-redeemer, etcetera).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)

Wrong.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22)

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

(Continued in next post):