The Sabbath Day

[Ronald Nolette]

They're glorious and valid when they're planted in our hearts via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

All 10 of them. Same exact Commands as on the Stone Tablets.

Paul calls those ten in stone the law of sin and death! That was the whole purpose of the law. to show man is utterly incapable of saving themselves and driving us to Jesus!

Paul even said the law gives power to sin to sin !

1 Cor. 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BarneyFife]

Mostl;y because they are not germaine to the topic at hand. but I love those verses, for the Spirit lives in our heart and has written Gods letter in our hearts.

Except for the one you don't like.

 

[BarneyFife]

No you haven't but that is fine. Because you cannot hold to this and hold that the ten written in stone are glorious and valid.

What's the diff? You never answered the texts I gave. "Because you cannot hold to this and that."

 

[BarneyFife]

Paul calls those ten in stone the law of sin and death!

Yeah, and I'm waiting for that text! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[BarneyFife]

No, wait. I've got it.

The wages of sin is death! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[amigo de christo]

Paul calls those ten in stone the law of sin and death! That was the whole purpose of the law. to show man is utterly incapable of saving themselves and driving us to Jesus!

Paul even said the law gives power to sin to sin !

1 Cor. 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The law makes us aware of what SIN IS . IT dont give POWER to SIN TO SIN . GOD didnt create something that would CAUSE MAN TO SIN .
HE simply gave the law to show man what is good and what is evil . Folks misunderstand so many things these days .
PAUL also says THE LAW IS HOLY JUST AND GOOD . How can sin and what gives power to sin to sin BE GOOD .
You are misunderstanding .
NOW , in truth the law does show us all THAT WE ARE ALL INDEED SINNERS . YOu got that part right .
AND the law would lead us to CHRIST . I mean who has not sinned , THUS ALL NEED THE SAVOIR .
When GOD drew me to faith in Christ HE put me in the bible
joyous it is . Yet the more i also read the scriptures the more deeper i realized I needed a savoir to save me from my own
flesh . JESUS GIVES POWER . Its like the scriptures truly , by the WORK of the SPIRIT , led me to a total dependance ON CHRIST
ON GOD .

 

[BarneyFife]

The law makes us aware of what SIN IS . IT dont give POWER to SIN TO SIN . GOD didnt create something that would CAUSE MAN TO SIN .
HE simply gave the law to show man what is good and what is evil . Folks misunderstand so many things these days .
PAUL also says THE LAW IS HOLY JUST AND GOOD . How can sin and what gives power to sin to sin BE GOOD .
You are misunderstanding .
NOW , in truth the law does show us all THAT WE ARE ALL INDEED SINNERS . YOu got that part right .
AND the law would lead us to CHRIST . I mean who has not sinned , THUS ALL NEED THE SAVOIR .
When GOD drew me to faith in Christ HE put me in the bible
joyous it is . Yet the more i also read the scriptures the more deeper i realized I needed a savoir to save me from my own
flesh . JESUS GIVES POWER . Its like the scriptures truly , by the WORK of the SPIRIT , led me to a total dependance ON CHRIST
ON GOD .

Yeah, no one cares about 2 Corinthians 3 until it's time to bash the law. "Oh, goody, there's a verse of two that I can twist into saying something that a thousand other verses deny."

 

[GEN2REV]

So is this comment in the Genrev translation of the bible? cuz I use 34 English translations plus the Greek and Hebrew and that doesn't show up anywhere in those 36 bibles!

But I do see that they are a ministry of condemnation that was glorious but also done away with. I await you showing me a verse.

Paul calls those ten in stone the law of sin and death! That was the whole purpose of the law. to show man is utterly incapable of saving themselves and driving us to Jesus!

Paul even said the law gives power to sin to sin !

1 Cor. 15:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ron, if you played this debate game fairly, we wouldn't be where we are now.

You are presented with verses that contradict your points constantly and all you do is turn right around and pretend they were never presented.

It's literally pointless to debate anything with you because you're not honest.

The Holy Spirit indwells those who obey the Commandments. John 14:21-23

When that happens, the Commandments become desirable, and possible, to obey due to the new Spirit within us. Hebrews 10:16

Does God put these Commandments in our hearts and write them on our minds because they are a ministry of condemnation?

Also, Paul kept all the 10 Commandments. He was a keeper of the Law long after he was made a Christian. Acts 21:24

Now, this is post #350. Let's see how long it is before you're pretending none of this was posted again.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Except for the one you don't like.

Trying to be a mind reader now are we? Divination is evil.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What's the diff? You never answered the texts I gave. "Because you cannot hold to this and that."

The ones you gave were OT verses spoken to teh nation of Israel and her proslytes. We do not live under the Mosaic Law, nor the Ten written in stones which God told the church is a ministry of death thaT HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH! SO i DID ANSWER THEM, YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER AS IT SMASHED LEGALISM.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The law makes us aware of what SIN IS . IT dont give POWER to SIN TO SIN . GOD didnt create something that would CAUSE MAN TO SIN .
HE simply gave the law to show man what is good and what is evil . Folks misunderstand so many things these days .
PAUL also says THE LAW IS HOLY JUST AND GOOD . How can sin and what gives power to sin to sin BE GOOD .
You are misunderstanding .
NOW , in truth the law does show us all THAT WE ARE ALL INDEED SINNERS . YOu got that part right .
AND the law would lead us to CHRIST . I mean who has not sinned , THUS ALL NEED THE SAVOIR .
When GOD drew me to faith in Christ HE put me in the bible
joyous it is . Yet the more i also read the scriptures the more deeper i realized I needed a savoir to save me from my own
flesh . JESUS GIVES POWER . Its like the scriptures truly , by the WORK of the SPIRIT , led me to a total dependance ON CHRIST
ON GOD .

1 cor. 15:

"The strength of sin is the law". Sin gets its strength by th elaw.

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[BarneyFife]

Trying to be a mind reader now are we? Divination is evil.

That's so clever.

The ones you gave were OT verses spoken to teh nation of Israel and her proslytes. We do not live under the Mosaic Law, nor the Ten written in stones which God told the church is a ministry of death thaT HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH! SO i DID ANSWER THEM, YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER AS IT SMASHED LEGALISM.

There were plenty of NT verses, Ron, and you never addressed them. No one ever does. They just ignore them. By the way, are you admitting here that the Mosaic law is distinct from the ten commandments? 'Cause it sure sounds like it.

 

[farouk]

1 cor. 15:

"The strength of sin is the law". Sin gets its strength by th elaw.

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

@Ronald Nolette As regards the sabbath which was part of the old system, it's good to remember that the Lord Jesus rose again on the first day of the week; the Resurrection being gloriously the fulfillment of the feast of firstfruits.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's so clever.

There were plenty of NT verses, Ron, and you never addressed them. No one ever does. They just ignore them. By the way, are you admitting here that the Mosaic law is distinct from the ten commandments? 'Cause it sure sounds like it.

There is not one NT verse that commands the church to observe the Sabbath day! Not one.

No the Mosaic Law contains teh ten commandments. Teh 603 not in stone and the ten in stone comprise what is known as the Mosaic Law and the ten in stone minister death and cnodemnation not life and glory.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Ronald Nolette As regards the sabbath which was part of the old system, it's good to remember that the Lord Jesus rose again on the first day of the week; the Resurrection being gloriously the fulfillment of the feast of firstfruits.

Actually, they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette As regards the sabbath which was part of the old system, it's good to remember that the Lord Jesus rose again on the first day of the week; the Resurrection being gloriously the fulfillment of the feast of firstfruits.

Sad thing is that most believers today reject how Jews counted days in Jesus time. any part of a day was considered a day. So Jesus died friday c. 3 PM that is one day. Spent the day in the tomb from sundown Friday to Sunday Saturday that is day 2. rose sometime after saundown and before Mary got there, that is day three! So in accord with culture when Jesus said He would spend three days and nights in the tomb, He was absolutely correct though He spent only a minim,um of abour 29 hours there.

 

[BarneyFife]

Sad thing is that most believers today reject how Jews counted days in Jesus time. any part of a day was considered a day. So Jesus died friday c. 3 PM that is one day. Spent the day in the tomb from sundown Friday to Sunday Saturday that is day 2. rose sometime after saundown and before Mary got there, that is day three! So in accord with culture when Jesus said He would spend three days and nights in the tomb, He was absolutely correct though He spent only a minim,um of abour 29 hours there.

Uh, no, most believers actually do not reject how Jesus counted days referring to His death and resurrection, including yours truly. Otherwise, we wouldn't have Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday.

 

[BarneyFife]

There is not one NT verse that commands the church to observe the Sabbath day! Not one.

Sure there is. There's something much closer to a direct command to keep the Sabbath than there is to say that it's been changed or eliminated or fulfilled, etc., blah...

 

[farouk]

There is not one NT verse that commands the church to observe the Sabbath day! Not one.

@Ronald Nolette Good point.............

I like the lines which say:

"Wonderful things in the Bible I see,
Especially what's put there by you and by me..."

 

[BarneyFife]

what say you about Paul's dictate on the laws written in stone?

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
King James Version

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Read carefully:

This objection to the perpetuity of the ten commandments (but, in actuality, only the 4th, since no one ever objects to the other 9—this is as hard and cold a fact as one is likely to find) is common but, unfortunately, grossly misguided. It is, in fact, based on eisegesis of the highest order.

The introduction to the passage finds Paul declaring to the Corinthian brethren: "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (2 Corinthians 3:2-3).

Here is the key to interpreting the words that follow. His figure of speech is patently borrowed from the Scriptural contrast between the old and the new covenant, "Tables of stone" contrasted with "tables of the heart", and "ink" contrasted with "the Spirit of tile living God." These Corinthians, he said, were "ministered by us."

By an easy transition Paul moves into a discussion of the two covenants by adding immediately that Christ "also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life."

(The word 'testament' in this and almost all other instances in the New Testament does not have the meaning of a "will" as made by a testator in anticipation of death, but of a covenant, and is so translated in many English translations.)

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vale over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished." Verses 7-13.

Here is a series of contrasts, intended not so much to belittle the old dispensation as to glorify the new. It was ever Paul's studied endeavor to prove that Christ and His ministry are the blazing glory beside which the spiritual glory of the former times seems pale. This argument by contrast particularly marks the book of Hebrews, which was written for the Jewish believers, who, until they accepted Christ, had thought that the glory of Sinai and the ministration of the divine law under the Jewish priests and rulers were the last word in heavenly glory. The contrasts that Paul seeks to make are essentially the same as the contrasts between the old and new covenants:

1. "The ministration of "death" versus "the ministration of the spirit."
2. "Ministration of condemnation" versus "ministration of righteousness."
3. "Letter kills" versus “spirit gives life."
4. "Was glorious” versus “exceed in glory."
5. "Done away" versus "remains."

Numbers one and two are simply variant expressions. The questions are, therefore:

1. What are these two ministrations?
2. What is meant by letter and spirit?
3. What is this relative "glory"?
4. What was "done away" and what "remains"?

The objector quickly answers:

The "ministration of death" was that which was "written and engraved in stones," and is plainly the Ten Commandments.

But not so quickly. Is it correct to speak of a "ministration" and a "law" as synonymous?

No.

It is correct to speak of the "ministration" or, as we would say, the administering of a law. The administering of the law is the means by which it is put in operation, and is not to be confused with the law itself.

Therefore, "the ministration of death," or "the ministration of condemnation," refers to the ministration, or the administering, of the law that was "written and engraved in stones."

By a simple figure of speech, the law is called “death” and “condemnation.”

On a certain occasion in Elisha's day, the sons of the prophets gathered with him around a "great pot" in which had been cooked certain "wild gourds." Evidently, the gourds were poisonous, for one of those eating cried out: "There is death in the pot." (See 2 Kings 1:38-40) He meant, of course, that there was something in the pot that would cause death, and substituting cause for effect, he cried out as he died.

(To Be Continued)

 

[BarneyFife]

@Ronald Nolette

(Cont'd)

Paul had earlier said to the Corinthians, "The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Cor. 15:56. That is, if it were not for the law of God, which condemns those who violate it, there would be no sin, and hence no death in the penalty for sin, "for where no law is, there is no transgression.” (Romans 4:15).

Thinking about this fact and the coexisting fact that "the law is holy … and just, and good," (Romans 7:12) caused Paul to inquire: "Was then that which is good made death unto me?" (v. 13) Here he speaks of the law as "death."

Now, how does Paul say that we escape from this "ministration of death"--this "ministration of condemnation"?

By abolishing the law of God?

Read carefully his words:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of' the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4).

We escape from "condemnation" through Jesus Christ, who changes our hearts so that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Paul describes this changed state as walking "after the Spirit," and adds that "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Verses 5, 6.

Here is a state of "condemnation" and "death" changed to one of "no condemnation" but rather "life." In other words, a ministration of condemnation and death is exchanged for a ministration of the spirit and life.

How evident that we are here discussing the two covenants.

And how evident also that Paul's words in Romans 8 parallel his words in 2 Corinthians 3.

That is the plain teaching of the Scripture.

The cold letter of the law as it appeared on the stone tables had no life-giving power. It could only point accusingly at every man, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. An administration of the law based on its letter alone results only in death for violators.

But an administration of it based on the forgiveness possible through the action of God's Spirit on the heart results in life.

The contrast between "letter" and "spirit" does not mean a contrast between the age of law and the age of freedom from the law.

As we have already noted, when God's Spirit is in control, the law's requirements are carried out in our hearts.

What, now, of the "glory" mentioned by Paul? He plainly speaks of the relative glory of two ministrations. The justice and righteousness of God shone forth in awesome, even terrifying glory on Mount Sinai as He proclaimed His law. He stood there like a consuming fire.

But how much greater the glory of God that bathed the earth with its life-giving rays where Christ came down to "save his people from their sins." Matt. 1:21.

Here was the glory of justice and mercy combined, for in dying for our sins–our "transgression of the law"--Christ revealed how God at one and the same time could "be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus." (Romans 3:26)

This brings us to the last question: What was "done away" and what "remains?" The question is really already answered. The glory attendant upon the giving of the law is so greatly excelled by the glory attendant upon the saving of men from its violation that Paul could appropriately speak of the first as “glorious" and the second as "the glory that excels."

But right here Paul weaves in an incident in connection with the giving of the law at Sinai to illustrate a point that he wishes to make in the verses that immediately follow this disputed passage.

When Moses came down from the mount with the tables of stone in his hands, "the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him." So Moses "put a vale on his face while he spoke to the Israelites. (See Exodus 34:29-35)

Paul refers to this: "The children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away." 2 Corinthians 3:7. He refers to this again in verse 11, saying it was "done away," and then again in verse 13 in these words: "And not as Moses, which put a vale over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished."

It was the glory of the former ministration, now ended, and not the law administered, that was "done away" and/or "abolished," even as, by historical analogy, Paul reminds them that it was the glory on Moses' face that was "done away."

The record declares that the veil was on Moses' face, not on the tables of stone, that it was his face that shone and not the tables of stone, and that it was the glory on his face that faded, not the luster that ever surrounds the divinely written Ten Commandments.

Well do Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, in their Bible commentary, make this general observation in their comments on 2 Corinthians 3:

"Still the moral law of the ten commandments, being written by the finger of God, is as obligatory now as ever; but put more on the Gospel spirit of 'love,' than on the letter of a servile obedience, and in a deeper and fuller spirituality (Matthew 5.17-48; Romans 13.9)."

m
m

Please refrain from responding with a refutation devoid of thoughtful research and preparation. I have done you the courtesy of replying to your pointed objection in a straightforward, honest, and sincere manner. In the spirit of Christian charity, please reciprocate appropriately.