Shalom, Trekson.
Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Your post is an excellent example of Messianic apologetics (including the one on the "He" topic). However, what they believe is their greatest asset is in reality their greatest failure. Before Christ, they may have had "bragging" rights, but after their rejection of Christ, they will never have that right of DNA again.
Fooey, it's not about a "right of DNA," brother! It's about
FAMILY!!! And, "FAMILY" extends
BEYOND mere "DNA!" After all, Yeshua` Himself is a perfect example! His mother Miryam was from Daviyd but not from S
mo! She was from Daviyd's son whose name was "Natan" ("Nathan", Luke 3:23-31)! Furthermore, His ADOPTED father, Yosef, was from S
mo, and God passed down the right of Daviyd's dynasty through him (Matthew 1:1-17)!
And, it is the pigheadedness of know-it-all "Christians" (in name only) that engender the opinion that "after their rejection of Christ, they will never have that right of DNA again"! What do you think brought on the anti-semitism of the late first and second centuries?! "KILL THE JEWS! THEY'RE CHRIST-KILLERS!"
Trekson said:
Your words: "In fact, the term (christian) today is OFFENSIVE to them because of the history of "Christians" in Europe and Asia!"
Imo, they ought to grow up and thank God every day for Christians. If it weren't for God using "christians", they would not have attained nor maintained nationhood status. They really have some nerve being upset over "christian" wrongdoings centuries ago when it was they who were the first to "hound" and persecute christians. Saul was only one of many and he and the disciples were mainly persecuted by the "Jewish" authorities. The word "Christian" has only one meaning and that is to be "Christ-like". If they have a problem being like Christ than they may not be as Messianic as they think they are.
Acts 11:26 - "...And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." It was the "Jewish" believers who were called "christians" first and they were proud to wear that title.
First, notice: I did NOT say that it was offensive to ME. I should have been more specific. It's not Messianic Believers, who are indeed "Christians," who find the term "Christian" offensive. It is the REST of the Jewish (Isra'eli) family who finds the term offensive because of the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, etc., most of which went on under the name of "Christ," condoning and even encouraging the push for the irradication of the Jews! "Thank God every day for Christians"? THEY'RE AFRAID OF US! THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE NAME OF "CHRIST"
BECAUSE OF "CHRISTIANS!" Such was NOT meant to be! We are to have that "middle wall of partition" BROKEN DOWN! We are to be Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together! We Messianic Jews have to break through that barrier when we witness to our brothers and sisters! That's why we go back to calling Him "Yeshua` haMashiach!" "Yeshua`" was not only the Master's given name, but it doesn't sound anything like "Jesus." (Or, rather, "Jesus" as it's pronounced today doesn't sound anything like "Yeshua`!") And, if they've studied their own prophecies, they know about haMashiach, the Messiah, for it is in them that He was prophesied to come!
They CAN learn about the true Messiah, and they ARE learning about Him ... by the THOUSANDS! But, it is NO thanks to them who call themselves "Christians" and COP AN ATTITUDE! READ this and UNDERSTAND it:
Romans 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God does NOT renig on His promises!)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV
You sound like a bully! "They should be GRATEFUL we kicked their feet out from under them! We gave them a hand up, didn't we?"
Get your hands on a copy of the
Zion Chronicles series by Bodie and Brock Thoene. Although it is a fictional series, it is well-researched and based on the facts of the birth of the nation of Isra'el. In them, you will learn the REAL story of how the British and the Americans treated the fledgling nation, Isra'el. It was NOT pretty!
Did you know that the original Balfour Declaration called for the Jews to be given BOTH SIDES of the Jordan River, including the whole Sinai peninsula?! That whole land was under the control of the British after they defeated the Ottoman Empire. Then, they were going to divide it equally so that the Jews got the western half and the Arabs got the eastern half. Then, they gave the Egyptians the Sinai. Then, they gave the Syrians the Golan Heights. Then, more recently, the Isra'elis gave away the Gaza Strip, and now the "Palestinians" (falsely so-called) want them to give away the West Bank?! Do you know how many towns in the "West Bank" territory are towns of Isra'el mentioned in the Tanakh (the Old Testament)?! The "West Bank" is what the Scriptures call the "Mountains of Isra'el!"
Don't give me that "they aught to be grateful" garbage! They've had to struggle and fight for every foothold! And, it has been GOD who gave them what they have today, not the British and not the Americans!
The term "Christian" (Greek: "
Christianos") is the DIMINUTIVE form of "Christ" (Greek: "
Christos"). It doesn't mean "Christ-like"; it means "little Christ!" It was a derogatory slur that the early "Christians" embraced and adopted! And, yes, the first century believers, who were Isra'eli, DID wear the slur proudly as they chose to suffer with Christ! Did that make them any less Isra'eli?
Trekson said:
Your words: "if you would just come to realize that "Christians" (I think "believers" is a better word, specified as "Gentile or non-Isra'eli believers") are a SUBSET of Isra'el, not the other way around."
This attitude here is what I have most against those who call themselves Messianics. Christianity is in no way shape or form a "subset" of Israel! The whole concept is contrary to the Bible and is laughable to the extent they have made a new, extreme level of conceit.
This is where they get it all wrong. Christians are not "joined" into the Jewish family. The olive tree is not made of DNA, it's made of FAITH. Rom. 2:28-29 - "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." and Rom. 4:11-12 - "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."
As I've said before, christians are NOT joint-heirs with Israel, we are joint-heirs with Christ! Rom. 8:17 - "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
I've had to walk away and simmer down before writing this; I was seeing RED! You DON'T know what you're talking about! After thinking about it for a while, I've come to the conclusion that it's just because you just don't know any better. You've been taught wrongly, and you have come to embrace a false teaching through no fault of your own. So, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Again, it's not about "DNA" or about "faith!" It's all about FAMILY! Why would Paul say that those who have faith in God through Yeshua` are "SONS of Avraham"?! Why would he say that "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly"? Are you not then a "Jew?" Are you not then a "son of Avraham?" THINK!!! These words, these verses, don't ANNUL the relationship we have with the Patriarchs! They STRENGTHEN it! Furthermore, they open up that relationship for ANYONE, just as the trunk of a tree can support the branches of that tree, whether natural branches (that grew there through genetics, the "DNA" you denounce) or graffed branches spliced into the tree! So what if you are "in Christ" or "in the Messiah?" Isn't the Messiah in Daviyd? Isn't the Messiah in Avraham? Like it or not, if you are part of the Messiah, you are part of Isra'el! You are part of the FAMILY! "Contrary to the Bible"? I don't know anything that more ADHERES to the Bible!
Trekson said:
If they truly want to know God then they must abandon their "Jewish" heritage just as Gentiles abandon their national heritage to become part of the "family of God". Let there be no mistake, being Israeli is no guarantee of membership into the family of God. That membership can only be attained through the faith and acceptance of who Christ was and what He did on the cross for us and whether they like the term or not, if they have done so than that makes them "christians"! So, instead of being "offended" by the term, they, like the rest of us, would do better by trying to bring honor and glory to that "title". As Paul taught in Gal. 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Even in the millennium, the righteous remnant of Israel will only consist of those who call Christ Lord and Savior. If they don't do or haven't done that then, regardless of the DNA, they will join the rest of the goats. When "all" of Israel is "saved" it will only be because "all" that is "left" of Israel will have acknowledged Christ as Lord, Savior and Messiah!
That's just nuts. They don't have to "abandon their Jewish heritage!" Abandon Yeshua`s lineage?! Abandon Yeshua`s culture?! Abandon Yeshua`s history?! Are you
meshuggah (crazy)?! They must NOT "abandon their Jewish heritage!" They must EMBRACE it! And, so must YOU! You are "a part of the family of God!" If the promises were made to Isra'el, then one must be a PART of Isra'el to partake in the promises!
Ephesians 2:1-22
2:1 You used to be dead because of your sins and acts of disobedience. 2 You walked in the ways of the ‘olam hazeh (the present age) and obeyed the Ruler of the Powers of the Air, who is still at work among the disobedient. 3 Indeed, we all once lived this way — we followed the passions of our old nature and obeyed the wishes of our old nature and our own thoughts. In our natural condition we were headed for God’s wrath, just like everyone else.
4 But God is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love 5 that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, he brought us to life along with the Messiah — it is by grace that you have been delivered. 6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with him in heaven, 7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come (the `olam haba') how infinitely rich is his grace, how great is his kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua. 8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — 12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom (peace) — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah (a dividing wall) which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off (Gentiles) and shalom to those nearby (Isra'elis), 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people (Isra'el) and members of God’s family (Mishpachah). 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!
CJB
You also need to read Galatians 3:28 in context!
Galatians 3:1-4:7
3:1 You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal! 2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it? 3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that’s the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing! 5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you — does he do it because of your legalistic observance of Torah commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?
6 It was the same with Avraham: “He trusted in God and was faithful to him, and that was credited to his account as righteousness.” 7 Be assured, then, that it is those who live by trusting and being faithful who are really children of Avraham. 8 Also the Tanakh, foreseeing that God would consider the Gentiles righteous when they live by trusting and being faithful, told the Good News to Avraham in advance by saying, “In connection with you, all the Goyim will be blessed.” 9 So then, those who rely on trusting and being faithful are blessed along with Avraham, who trusted and was faithful.
10 For everyone who depends on legalistic observance of Torah commands lives under a curse, since it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the Scroll of the Torah.” 11 Now it is evident that no one comes to be declared righteous by God through legalism, since “The person who is righteous will attain life by trusting and being faithful.” 12 Furthermore, legalism is not based on trusting and being faithful, but on [a misuse of] the text that says, “Anyone who does these things will attain life through them.” 13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.” 14 Yeshua the Messiah did this so that in union with him the Gentiles might receive the blessing announced to Avraham, so that through trusting and being faithful, we might receive what was promised, namely, the Spirit.
15 Brothers, let me make an analogy from everyday life: when someone swears an oath, no one else can set it aside or add to it. 16 Now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn’t say, “and to seeds,” as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one — “and to your seed” — and this “one” is the Messiah. 17 Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the Torah, which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the legal part of the Torah, it no longer comes from a promise. But God gave it to Avraham through a promise.
19 So then, why the legal part of the Torah? It was added in order to create transgressions, until the coming of the seed about whom the promise had been made. Moreover, it was handed down through angels and a mediator. 20 Now a mediator implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Does this mean that the legal part of the Torah stands in opposition to God’s promises? Heaven forbid! For if the legal part of the Torah which God gave had had in itself the power to give life, then righteousness really would have come by legalistically following such a Torah. 22 But instead, the Tanakh shuts up everything under sin; so that what had been promised might be given, on the basis of Yeshua the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness, to those who continue to be trustingly faithful.
23 Now before the time for this trusting faithfulness came, we were imprisoned in subjection to the system which results from perverting the Torah into legalism, kept under guard until this yet-to-come trusting faithfulness would be revealed. 24 Accordingly, the Torah functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful. 25 But now that the time for this trusting faithfulness has come, we are no longer under a custodian.
26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness; 27 because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom 28 there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one. 29 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.
4:1 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a minor he is no different from a slave, even though he is the legal owner of the estate; 2 rather, he is subject to guardians and caretakers until the time previously set by his father. 3 So it is with us — when we were “children” we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe; 4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, 5 so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God’s sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent forth into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”). 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son you are also an heir.
CJB
So, the concept being advanced in 3:28 is that, within the Messiah (not outside), there's no difference between Jew and Gentile, however being IN the Messiah, "you ARE seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise," (3:29) because HE is the seed of Avraham and the heir to the promise!
You also need to understand about the "sheep" and the "goats" in Matthew 25:31-46: BOTH groups are said to have treated "the least of these [the King's] brethren" one way or another. That's NOT just talking about "Christians!" That's also talking about His NATURAL brethren, the ones over whom He will be ruling, the ones whom He came to rescue! While there will probably be some who flat-out REFUSE to accept Yeshua` as King (sons of Beliy`al), the vast majority of Isra'elis, especially down through the last two thousand years, were not given ANY valid information by which to form an intelligent decision! ALL of these Isra'elis will be resurrected and given the chance to accept Him as their ancestors should have! The majority of those Isra'elis who are alive at His Second Coming will recognize Him as the Messiah prophesied to come and will accept Him, and a "nation will be born in a day!"
Isaiah 66:1-24
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
Also, much of this will occur when the Yeshua` the Messiah returns:
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
And, all of these names are found in Yeshua`s lineage:
Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
KJV
So, this means that these people will have to have been resurrected in order for them to mourn for Yeshua` and that means that the resurrection will have already occurred and they were a part of that resurrection when this passage is fulfilled!
