The sin of unbelief

[ATP]

I do not believe in "progressive salvation, progressive justification, progressive righteousness etc". Every one of theses things are accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person places their faith in the works of Jesus on the cross..

Sanctification takes commitment from both the believer and also God, but God will have His way. He always does. Prov 16:9.

True faith is taking God at His word. Jesus sent Paul to the whole world with a gospel of grace. Under grace God (Jesus) has accomplished everything necessary for a person's salvation. --- All that is required today is for a person to believe it. --- No one can see faith, trust, belief, confidence; but God can and does.

You are correct sir.

Psalm 127:1 NIV Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 3:21-22 NIV But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:11 NIV And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24 NIV This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Gal 3:5 NIV Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

1 Tim 4:10 NIV That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

James 2:23 NIV And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

 

[KingJ]

This is RT vernacular. The Bible does not use the words 'saving faith', it just uses the word 'faith' that brings about salvation. Rom 10:9-11

RT? Retweet or Real Time?

I disagree completely with you Stan. The bible makes it clear that the faith we need to believe Jesus is Lord is a gift from above.

 

[KingJ]

Absolutely. It's not so much as brainwashing as it is deception from the devil. If you are born again and still believe you can lose your salvation, that is also deception. The devil comes at the saints through all sorts of angles. Even using nonbelievers that think they're saved preaching that grace isn't enough. If the devil can erase that day you gave your life to Christ, well, that is really bad. I would consider that a full blown attack.

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html


And doubting Thomas doubted before Pentecost KingJ. Jesus had not yet ascended to His Father yet. The Holy spirit had not yet descended on to the disciples yet. Doubting Thomas doubted before the seal of God came on to the scene Eph 1:13-14 NIV.

I completely agree with all you said ATP. You will find no argument here on OSAS ^_^.

All my discussion is about us getting to the airport. Once we have a boarding pass, we have a boarding pass. God does not make mistakes.

I believe there are many who have an impeccable belief in Jesus being Lord and then many who have to keep a belief in Him mustered up. As you explained with doubting Thomas.

A true Christian can never be an atheist. Many atheists are ex Christians. IE Many peoples' faith in Jesus being Lord is on par with a belief in Santa Claus. When it should be on par with faith in gravity.

 

[StanJ]

RT? Retweet or Real Time?
I disagree completely with you Stan. The bible makes it clear that the faith we need to believe Jesus is Lord is a gift from above.

Reformed theology, and it does no such thing as I've clearly shown.

 

[KingJ]

Reformed theology, and it does no such thing as I've clearly shown.

I read that RT is considered synonymous with Calvninism. So I agree completely with your concern. I can see how saving faith can be Calvnistic, but then also non Calvinistic.

We come to the Lord / open the door to our hearts / take a leap of faith. He comes in and we receive a revelation of Jesus we never had before.

Read these verses properly and add them together.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture could not be clearer. 100% gift. It is not God preselecting us. It is available to the whomsoever. But without it we cannot believe Jesus is Lord. It is tied in to us receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a new creation 2 Cor 5:17.

Saying that there is no saving faith, only our faith is on par wih saying we make ourselves a new creation VS being made a new creation.

 

[ATP]

I completely agree with all you said ATP. You will find no argument here on OSAS ^_^.

All my discussion is about us getting to the airport. Once we have a boarding pass, we have a boarding pass. God does not make mistakes.

I believe there are many who have an impeccable belief in Jesus being Lord and then many who have to keep a belief in Him mustered up. As you explained with doubting Thomas.

A true Christian can never be an atheist. Many atheists are ex Christians. IE Many peoples' faith in Jesus being Lord is on par with a belief in Santa Claus. When it should be on par with faith in gravity.

So why do you believe a born again believer can lose his salvation. I don't understand.

 

[mjrhealth]

So why do you believe a born again believer can lose his salvation. I don't understand.

There is only one way, that would require the believer to cast out Jesus like a devil. Once that is done there is no more grace and your done for, as it says Christ cannot die a second tilme for you. But OSAS is all about faith, beleiving that God means what He says, will do what He says he will do, and that Christ accomplished all that was needed on the cross. But as one can see far to many Christians trying to save themselves, as if it where possible.

 

[ATP]

There is only one way, that would require the believer to cast out Jesus like a devil. Once that is done there is no more grace and your done for, as it says Christ cannot die a second tilme for you. But OSAS is all about faith, beleiving that God means what He says, will do what He says he will do, and that Christ accomplished all that was needed on the cross. But as one can see far to many Christians trying to save themselves, as if it where possible.

Well said.

 

[KingJ]

So why do you believe a born again believer can lose his salvation. I don't understand.

I don't. Which post is confusing?

 

[KingJ]

There is only one way, that would require the believer to cast out Jesus like a devil. Once that is done there is no more grace and your done for, as it says Christ cannot die a second tilme for you. But OSAS is all about faith, beleiving that God means what He says, will do what He says he will do, and that Christ accomplished all that was needed on the cross. But as one can see far to many Christians trying to save themselves, as if it where possible.

I dont think OSAS is all about our faith and I don't believe you can cast Jesus out. We can believe God keeps to His word all we want, doesnt make us saved or mean we have saving faith. Many trying to save themselves are in actuality trying to be after God's heart not save themselves. I think 99.99% of Arminians know that salvation is all God's doing.

OSAS is true. BUt only once we have made it to the airport. Once we are given a boarding pass we have it. Now this is the issue. How do we know we are saved? We all want to think we are. We all want to believe our ability to believe in the unseen being seen is something of value. But it is all tripe and an absolute joke. The only way we can be confident that we are saved is 1. To examine ourselves for a love or hatred of sin. 2. Examine ourselves for a love or hatred of sin and 3. To examine ourselves for a love or hatred of sin.

 

[KingJ]

I don't have any clue whatsoever as to why Arminains and OSAS don't get on better. So many DUMB assumptions are made about each other. :) <_<.

 

[ATP]

I don't. Which post is confusing?

I thought you were a non-osas believer. My apologies.

 

[KingJ]

I thought you were a non-osas believer. My apologies.

No worries. My belief is clear in my head. Not so much in others ^_^.

God does not make mistakes. But we do.

 

[mjrhealth]

We all want to believe our ability to believe in the unseen

One can believe but its all about knowing, see I know I am saved there is no believing in that. Its done. One can believe in Jesus, or one can know Him, I know which I and He prefer. Otherwisw i quiet agrre. Didnt say one could cast out Jesus, but it is the only way He can leave.

 

[KingJ]

One can believe but its all about knowing, see I know I am saved there is no believing in that. Its done. One can believe in Jesus, or one can know Him, I know which I and He prefer. Otherwisw i quiet agrre. Didnt say one could cast out Jesus, but it is the only way He can leave.

Could not agree more. We know there is gravity. We don't have to muster up faith for it.

 

[StanJ]

I read that RT is considered synonymous with Calvninism. So I agree completely with your concern. I can see how saving faith can be Calvnistic, but then also non Calvinistic.

We come to the Lord / open the door to our hearts / take a leap of faith. He comes in and we receive a revelation of Jesus we never had before.

Read these verses properly and add them together.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture could not be clearer. 100% gift. It is not God preselecting us. It is available to the whomsoever. But without it we cannot believe Jesus is Lord. It is tied in to us receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a new creation 2 Cor 5:17.

Saying that there is no saving faith, only our faith is on par wih saying we make ourselves a new creation VS being made a new creation.

If your point of view has been informed by only these two scriptures, then it hasn't really been informed much at all. There are many more scriptures that indicate stepping out in faith is our responsibility given what God has already implanted in us. Paul says in Romans 1 that we know God because we see Him through His creation. That knowledge is already there. Jesus also told us to ask, seek, knock, which can't really be done if no one has residual faith in them to do such. It takes faith to believe, faith is how we get saved, faith is how we walk. If we are commanded to be faithful then we can't obviously be given that arbitrarily by God or else we would be faithful to walk. I guess it really comes down to understanding what God does and doesn't do in our lives and how that involves our free will choices. The Bible does indeed say in Jesus' own words, that God draws us to him, but it does not say God makes us believe. Hence the reason for being responsible for believing and for continuing to believe our whole life. Perseverance doesn't automatically happen, it's something we have to do of our own accord. Apostasy results when people decide not to persevere and to give up on God. 2 Peter 3:9 is a clear indication of that, as is Heb 6:4-6

 

[Born_Again]

No one is interested in unbelief there are far to mant christians walking in it...

Aside from the grammatical disaster here, this sentence is contradictive. If a person does not believe, especially in what Christ did for them, they are not a Christian. I'm not sure what you would call them other than lost. On a similar note, though we can only see their actions, we cannot assume we know their heart when it pertains to their relationship with God. Unless, of course, the tell you. Then its a pretty safe bet.

There is no such thing as a saved person who is not baptised in the Holy Spirit according to 1 Cor 12:3. Speaking in tongues is not 'the' evidence. Being able to truthfully believe and call Jesus, Lord, is.

Yes we must confess and yes there is an element of a leap of faith amidst the more important ''hating of sin and repenting' in drawing near to Him. But God does not leave any who take the leap of faith in the air. Christians are fully convinced on who Jesus is, just as Peter was in Matt 16:16-17.

We live by faith but our faith is not self mustered. It is on par with faith in gravity. Absolute certainity, but yet unseen.

I would agree.

Then you gave never read Acts 19:1-7?

You can describe it anyway that you understand, but ultimately the faith starts simply by believing who the Gospel says Jesus is. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word od Jesus Christ. Rom 10:17

All men have the same starting faith, as is indicated by God's word saying whoever. What WE do and how we act upon that, is our choice. God forces no one.

Acts does not say that you will receive the gift of tongues when baptized. If that is what you are implying, Stan. It was in that particular instance. Please clarify if I am wrong in interpreting what you were saying.

I will agree with what you are saying about Rom, 10:17. That verse is pretty prima fascia.


I wont even get started on OSAS.

 

[mjrhealth]

Aside from the grammatical disaster here, this sentence is contradictive. If a person does not believe, especially in what Christ did for them, they are not a Christian

I guess you should look at the converstaion Jesus had with teh pharisees who thought they had it all. There are many who call themselves christians who do not know Christ and who have no faith in Jesus.

 

[StanJ]

Acts does not say that you will receive the gift of tongues when baptized. If that is what you are implying, Stan. It was in that particular instance. Please clarify if I am wrong in interpreting what you were saying.

Acts 19:6 shows a precedent previously established in Acts 2:4 & 10:46, as well as being prophesied by Jesus himself in Mark 16:17.
Acts 8:15-17 also shows that believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is quite evident that Simon the Sorcerer saw this evidence and if you read further you'll see what he thought. We can easily deduce by this, that the evidence was also speaking in tongues.

 

[ATP]

If a person does not believe, especially in what Christ did for them, they are not a Christian. I'm not sure what you would call them other than lost.

Correct. The term "lost" in scripture only applies to those who have not come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 6:35-40 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 17:12 NIV While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 18:8-9 NIV Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I wont even get started on OSAS.

Maybe I can help you clear things up. What about OSAS are you having trouble with.