The Singular Factor In Coming To God Through Christ.

[Truther]

I'm not knocking the obedience to be water baptized. I'm knocking the belief that the water itself is what redeems us.

Water itself does not redeem us, but water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ redeems us. There is a difference.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul was kidding?

Paul is talking about his old life, particularly that of trying to keep the law in his natural self. He goes on to explain that it is the Holy Spirit that delivered him from not being able to live for God. Chapter 8 is the answer to the frustration and defeat of chapter 7.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Are you a spirit?

I have a spirit.

 

[Truther]

Paul is talking about his old life, particularly that of trying to keep the law in his natural self. He goes on to explain that it is the Holy Spirit that delivered him from not being able to live for God. Chapter 8 is the answer to the frustration and defeat of chapter 7.

No he was not talking about his old life. Romans 7 was present tense. How can you not see that?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Water itself does not redeem us, but water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ redeems us. There is a difference.

It might happen at your water baptism, and it might happen before. Might even happen after. You're turning water baptism into a legalistic ritual, like the Israelites did with the worship commands of the old covenant.

 

[Truther]

I have a spirit.

You have a carnal flesh man and a spirit man....you have a carnal nature and a spiritually imparted divine nature attached to your spirit man.

 

[Truther]

It might happen at your water baptism, and it might happen before. Might even happen after. You're turning water baptism into a legalistic ritual, like the Israelites did with the worship commands of the old covenant.

No, Peter turned water baptism into a legal binding document into the future covenant given to Israel. You can’t skip Acts 2:38.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No he was not talking about his old life. Romans 7 was present tense. How can you not see that?

Chapter 8 explains this. Anytime a person does not walk in the Spirit they are in the defeat of the flesh. When a person walks by the Spirit they are delivered from that defeat. But surely, Paul is talking about his experience with the law and the frustration of his inability to obey God. Read the whole chapter...."I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death." Romans 7:10. He's relating his past experience with the frustrations of the law and his desire to serve God, speaking of it from the perspective of real time using the present tense .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No, Peter turned water baptism into a legal binding document into the future covenant given to Israel. You can’t skip Acts 2:38.

Like I say, some people get saved before they get baptized. Some after. Some during. The wind blows where it wants, when it wants. The Holy Spirit is not legalistic. Ask Cornelius and his family.

 

[Truther]

Chapter 8 explains this. Anytime a person does not walk in the Spirit they are in the defeat of the flesh. When a person walks by the Spirit they are delivered from that defeat. But surely, Paul is talking about his experience with the law and the frustration of his inability to obey God. Read the whole chapter...."I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death." Romans 7:10. He's relating his past experience with the frustrations of the law and his desire to serve God, speaking of it from the perspective of real time using the present tense .

Is this an admission that Christians have both flesh and spirit battling within them?

 

[Truther]

Like I say, some people get saved before they get baptized. Some after. Some during. The wind blows where it wants, when it wants. The Holy Spirit is not legalistic. Ask Cornelius and his family.

So Mark 16, Jesus says he that believeth and is saved shall be baptized?

 

[Curtis]

Compare the parts I emboldened above to this passage.↓↓↓

"Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. ...he will be great in the sight of the Lord. ...he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb. Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah" Luke 1:13-17
​

This is a good example of why I do not read commentaries. I learn far more from the scriptures themselves and by talking about them with other believers who also read the scriptures for themselves.

It's interesting how you're viewing the kingdom of God as being something yet to come, and so you're comparing the greatness of John to the least of believers at a future time. But Jesus said the least in the kingdom of God IS (present tense) greater than John the Baptist. He was speaking in the present tense. The church has changed that to the future tense—that the least of believers in the future in the New Covenant will be greater than John the Baptist. I don't see anything in those passages to signify a future context of this greatness of the least in the kingdom of God over and above that of John the Baptist.

Because at this time the physical kingdom is in heaven, and hasn’t come to earth yet, which happens at His second advent.

John had the Holy Spirit but as the commentators rightly said, John lived under the law, not under the spiritual or physical kingdom of Christ.

The greatest under the law is not as great as the least in the kingdom, is my view of it.

But I’m done debating it.

 

[Curtis]

Romans 7 is Paul when still under the law as a Pharisee. Romans 8 is the solution to the chapter 7 dilemma.

But Paul starts out in Romans 8 with the conditional statement that having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, and warns in that chapter, that if we choose to live according to the flesh, it is enmity with God. and brings death - spiritual death.

 

[Curtis]

One is baptized into Christ by water baptism in Jesus' name into his death.

The Holy Ghost raises the dead man from that point in his or her life.

Those that are calling themselves alive without dying are spirit zombies that must die(be killed by repentance) and buried deep in the watery tomb(baptism).

The Spirit does not cancel the death/burial part of our born again experience.

Only theologians practice this modern day "baptism cancel culture" by cancelling baptism.

No one cancels it - they cancel UPC and RCC errors about it, though.

And BTW Jesus gave the apostles a measure of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost:

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

And in Acts 10 the gentiles had their own Pentecost experience and spoke in tongues, and Peter said, can any man forbid water for these who have received the Holy Ghost, as did we?

They had the HS before water baptism.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Is this an admission that Christians have both flesh and spirit battling within them?

The born again Christian is free to walk according to the sinful desires of the flesh if he wants to.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You can’t skip Acts 2:38.

Very, very few in the church skip it. You're getting all excited over nothing.

 

[Addy]

Very, very few in the church skip it. You're getting all excited over nothing.

those who do not follow are..... Acts skippers.... OH my goodness... that gets me every time... HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Ferris Bueller]

those who do not follow are..... Acts skippers.... OH my goodness... that gets me every time... HAHAHAHAHA

I understand the argument that we don't present the gospel the way Peter did anymore. But I also see it isn't legalistically necessary to present it the way Peter did. That's the part Truther doesn't get. But since 99% of the church has obeyed Christ's command to be water baptized his contention is pretty meaningless.

 

[Addy]

I understand the argument that we don't present the gospel the way Peter did anymore. But I also see it isn't legalistically necessary to present it the way Peter did. That's the part Truther doesn't get. But since 99% of the church is water baptized his contention is pretty meaningless.

Honestly.... the forums have reinforced my belief of NOT listening to ANYONE.... truly... I have learned to guard my heart like a fortress... It boggles my mind that there is ONE JESUS and 50 million different reports on how to be a CHRISTIAN... Disturbing to say the least.

 

[Truther]

No one cancels it - they cancel UPC and RCC errors about it, though.

And BTW Jesus gave the apostles a measure of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost:

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

And in Acts 10 the gentiles had their own Pentecost experience and spoke in tongues, and Peter said, can any man forbid water for these who have received the Holy Ghost, as did we?

They had the HS before water baptism.

The HS was not given to vindicate one's beliefs, but to lead them to the truth of Acts 2:38 and remission of their sins.

Anti-baptismalists only see the HS outpouring in Acts 10, hitting the power brakes, and ignoring the COMMAND of Peter to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as per Acts 2.....


47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.


Suggested or COMMANDED?