The Son of Man returns with and for his people

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Spiritual Israelite

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But you are wrong about what Joel said and meant. Do you understand that?
LOL. You can't be serious with this question. Do you think I'd actually answer "yes" to this? LOL.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. But you are wrong. Why? Because you believe that all of Joel is in our past.
This shows again your poor reading comprehension skills. I have never said that I believe that all of Joel is in our past. I have said several times that I see Joel 2:28-32 as having an ongoing fulfillment for as long as people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and receive the Holy Spirit. That will happen up until the day of the Lord's return in the future.

Do you not remember me saying this to you (which you even replied to):

He (Joel) wasn't only predicting Pentecost. Which I've made clear. You understand that, right? His prophecy relates to the entirety of "the last days" which began on the day of Pentecost but continue until the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4).
 

CadyandZoe

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So, tell me again where the OT makes it clear that the fact that God's promises to Abraham and his seed apply to Jesus Christ and those who belong to Christ.
It doesn't. Don't you see? Paul is telling his readers the significance of God's promise to Abraham. This is a completely different thing than exegeting Genesis. Everyone reading Genesis can understand what Moses meant to say. Everyone reading Galatians can understand what Paul has to say. Galatians is adding NEW revelation, not explaining extant revelation.
They were slow to understand and believe. You aren't reading the text.

Luke 24:
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
And again, this proves that the Holy Spirit is the one who helps a person understand. It isn't the NT that is helping them understand.
 

CadyandZoe

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LOL. You can't be serious with this question. Do you think I'd actually answer "yes" to this? LOL.


This shows again your poor reading comprehension skills. I have never said that I believe that all of Joel is in our past. I have said several times that I see Joel 2:28-32 as having an ongoing fulfillment for as long as people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and receive the Holy Spirit. That will happen up until the day of the Lord's return in the future.

Do you not remember me saying this to you (which you even replied to):

He (Joel) wasn't only predicting Pentecost. Which I've made clear. You understand that, right? His prophecy relates to the entirety of "the last days" which began on the day of Pentecost but continue until the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4).
Okay, if you don't believe all of Joel is in our past, what parts are left to be fulfilled?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It doesn't. Don't you see?
I see that you don't know what you're talking about. That's what I see.

Paul is telling his readers the significance of God's promise to Abraham. This is a completely different thing than exegeting Genesis. Everyone reading Genesis can understand what Moses meant to say. Everyone reading Galatians can understand what Paul has to say. Galatians is adding NEW revelation, not explaining extant revelation.

And again, this proves that the Holy Spirit is the one who helps a person understand. It isn't the NT that is helping them understand.
That was before the NT was written, obviously. The Holy Spirit gave Paul understanding which he then wrote down in his letters. But we have the NT now and it can help us understand the OT. Galatians 3:16-29 is in the NT and it helps me understand what God's promises made to Abraham and his seed, as recorded in the OT, are all about.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Okay, if you don't believe all of Joel is in our past, what parts are left to be fulfilled?
Goodness sakes. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I said that I see Joel 2:28-32 as having an ongoing fulfillment for as long as people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and receive the Holy Spirit. And I said that will happen up until the day of the Lord's return in the future. So, obviously, what I'm saying is left to be fulfilled is for the rest of those who will call on the name of the Lord and be saved while receiving the Holy Spirit during whatever time is left from now until the future day of Christ's return arrives.
 

CadyandZoe

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I see that you don't know what you're talking about. That's what I see.
No. I don't know what YOU are talking about. But you don't seem to know or understand the distinction between what a text says, and commentary on a text. Paul is not helping us understand Genesis. Paul is making commentary on Genesis to add new revelation.

Galatians 3:16-29 is in the NT and it helps me understand what God's promises made to Abraham and his seed, as recorded in the OT, are all about.
Of course, Paul is letting us know what it is all about. That's what I have been saying all along. Paul is not exegeting Genesis in the book of Galatians; he is expounding on it, adding new revelation to it. We learn from the book of Genesis that God intends to bless Abraham and his seed. We understand that part from Genesis. Paul argues that the "seed" is Christ. This part is new revelation.

There is nothing hidden or mysterious in Genesis such that we can't understand what Moses said. Even if Paul never wrote Galatians, we would still understand that the promise will go to Abraham and his seed. Paul doesn't need to interpret Genesis; he assumes that all of his readers are already familiar with Genesis.

Agree or no?
 

CadyandZoe

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Goodness sakes. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I said that I see Joel 2:28-32 as having an ongoing fulfillment for as long as people call on the name of the Lord and are saved and receive the Holy Spirit.
Okay. But that is NOT what Peter said. He said, "this is that." Both of our views need to add information in order to understand what Peter is actually saying. You are adding the bit about ongoing fulfillment, which makes your view work but is NOT what Joel said.
And I said that will happen up until the day of the Lord's return in the future. So, obviously, what I'm saying is left to be fulfilled is for the rest of those who will call on the name of the Lord and be saved while receiving the Holy Spirit during whatever time is left from now until the future day of Christ's return arrives.
Okay, but Joel prophesied more than an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Aspects of his prophecy did NOT take place at all. Ever. According to Joel "In those days . . ." What days? The days when God pours out his spirit on all flesh. In THOSE days the entire third chapter of Joel will take place. Did Joel chapter three come to pass during Pentecost? No. Joel 3 is still in our future. Isn't it? Yes, it is.

So your interpretation, being focused on one verse, makes no sense of Joel at all. He is focused on one specific and unique moment in our future when he will pour out his spirit and at THAT time the entire third chapter of Joel will take place.
 

Timtofly

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You did not answer the question.
So you think they are ongoing if you are asking people if they still offering sacrifices?

Your question is pointless if you are trying to make a statement.

That is like me asking you, "when did you stop beating your wife?". It is a pointless question.
 

Timtofly

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The Pharisees and scribes were still a part of the nation of Israel even after the kingdom of God was taken from them, so they had to have been cut off from a different Israel than that. And that would be Spiritual Israel.
Were they though? They lost it all in death. You can split up their literal Israel and their spiritual Israel if that helps your understanding, but they failed in life, and suffered the consequences in death. That was the point Paul was making. They thought they were Israel too. So if you agree with them, you are refuting your own point that Israel was taken away from them as that was the "kingdom" they were in charge of.

If you think it is ok to think you are still part of something after God tells you are not, it is totally your imagination that keeps you that way. You are the one claiming they were still Israel. There were so many revolting leaders which revolt were you rooting for was the actual Israel? The last one who was not dead?
 

covenantee

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So you think they are ongoing if you are asking people if they still offering sacrifices?

Your question is pointless if you are trying to make a statement.

That is like me asking you, "when did you stop beating your wife?". It is a pointless question.
Since you refuse to answer, it can only be presumed that you are offering sacrifices.

How many animals per day?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Were they though?
Yes, of course they were. Being part of the nation of Israel did not require having faith in Christ. That is a requirement for spiritual Israel.

They lost it all in death. That was later, but the kingdom of God had already been spiritually taken away from them well before 70 AD. They thought they were Israel too. So if you agree with them, you are refuting your own point that Israel was taken away from them as that was the "kingdom" they were in charge of.

That was the point Paul was making. They thought they were Israel too. So if you agree with them, you are refuting your own point that Israel was taken away from them as that was the "kingdom" they were in charge of.

If you think it is ok to think you are still part of something after God tells you are not, it is totally your imagination that keeps you that way. You are the one claiming they were still Israel. There were so many revolting leaders which revolt were you rooting for was the actual Israel? The last one who was not dead?
The kingdom of God is not the nation of Israel. The only thing required for being part of the nation of Israel was being a natural citizen or descendant of that nation. Their citizenship in the nation of Israel wasn't taken away, their place in the kingdom of God, the spiritual Israel, was taken away. You're not even thinking about this.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, of course they were. Being part of the nation of Israel did not require having faith in Christ. That is a requirement for spiritual Israel.


The kingdom of God is not the nation of Israel. The only thing required for being part of the nation of Israel was being a natural citizen or descendant of that nation. Their citizenship in the nation of Israel wasn't taken away, their place in the kingdom of God, the spiritual Israel, was taken away. You're not even thinking about this.
Of course I am. Abraham and Jacob were promised a Holy Nation set apart to God. That is why God changed his name from Jacob to Israel. You are not paying attention to who is Israel, and who was cut off.

You are thinking of the physical Jacob as the only part of who Jacob is. The nation is called Israel, not Jacob.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Yes, of course they were. Being part of the nation of Israel did not require having faith in Christ. That is a requirement for spiritual Israel.


The kingdom of God is not the nation of Israel. The only thing required for being part of the nation of Israel was being a natural citizen or descendant of that nation. Their citizenship in the nation of Israel wasn't taken away, their place in the kingdom of God, the spiritual Israel, was taken away. You're not even thinking about this.
Spiritual Israel is Israel, i.e. populated by sanctified descendants of Jacob. Reference Revelation 7. The 144K are the Spiritual Israel of Romans 9.
 

covenantee

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Spiritual Israel is Israel, i.e. populated by sanctified descendants of Jacob. Reference Revelation 7. The 144K are the Spiritual Israel of Romans 9.
Spiritual Israel are the faithful and obedient of OT Israel, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; et al).

The 144K includes Spiritual Israel, but is far more great and glorious.


The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
 

CadyandZoe

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Spiritual Israel are the faithful and obedient of OT Israel, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; et al).

The 144K includes Spiritual Israel, but is far more great and glorious.


The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
Only 144,000 people in the church? I don't think so. Two groups in Revelation 7, 144k and a multitude that no one can count.