The soon coming rapture?
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No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
IMHO, you are right by saying Israel is not replaced. The church doesn’t supersede Israel.
Then what? There is Israel of the flesh and of the spirit. Concerning the spirit, the Ekklesia is joined to, not replacing, Israel. Just as Abraham is our father in the spirit and not the flesh. And those accounted worthy of the promises are of the spirit and not the flesh. The wild olive is grafted in to an already existed tree. And once aliens of the commonwealth of Israel, we are now citizens of it.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Rom 11
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. And yet bearing witness to the scriptures, you think there is not going to be a rapture before the 70th week. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have it's blindness removed. The 144,000 first fruits before the throne are the accepted wave offering and there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman. Before that can happen there must be a harvest of the Church.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Verse 1 sets the topic already. Do you wish to be dead? Paul is willing to die, not live. Not that Paul is suicidal. Paul is not wishing to be "immediately". That is understood. Paul is wishing to be with the Lord, because that is what happens at death. Paul did not wish in verse 1. Paul stated a fact. Paul already went to and met people in the third heaven/Paradise. He knew they had permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is why he stated that in verse 1. Of course Paul would rather be in Paradise than in sin on this earth. Don't you?
Paul was not wishing to kill himself. Paul was not wishing to arrive 3,000 years later. You all really are not thinking this through very well, but jumping to conclusions.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Answering questions with questions? That's not how discussions are supposed to work. Why didn't you answer my questions? Is Jesus your King now? Is He not the King of all of us who believe in Him right now? Yes or no will suffice.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I have never stated otherwise. Yet Zechariah 14 has never happened in history. The point you keep avoiding. Christ reigns on earth from Jerusalem over all nations.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, we agree that Jesus is the King now. He reigns now. So, why is your focus on a supposed future reign of Christ on earth when He is already reigning now? Please explain that.
I have never avoided discussing Zechariah 14. Why are you lying? I have said many times that I'm not sure how to interpret Zechariah 14, but a verse like Zechariah 14:8 does remind me of John 7:37-39, which would mean that Zechariah 14 is likely highly symbolic and relates to the first coming of Christ rather than the second coming.
I have pointed out many times that verses in Zechariah 12 and 13 that futurists like yourself think relate to the future and the second coming actually relate to the first coming. Such as Zechariah 12:10, which is quoted by Jesus as having a first coming fulfillment in John 19:37. And Zechariah 13:7, which is quoted by Jesus as having a first coming fulfillment in Matthew 26:31. If Premils like you can be so wrong about Zechariah 12 and 13, then how can you be taken seriously with how you interpret Zechariah 14?
I have repeatedly pointed out that if Zechariah 14 is about Jesus reigning on earth after His return then you would have to conclude that animal sacrifices will be reinstated, based on Zechariah 14:16-21. So, do you believe animal sacrifices will be reinstated?
Also, where does Satan's little season fit in Zechariah 14? In other words, what in Zechariah 14 matches up with Revelation 20:7-9?
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If Jesus is reigning now on earth, then the 7th Trumpet happened in the first century, along with Jesus landing on the mount of Olives.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
As for sacrifices, there is a temple and alter in Heaven. Do you think God offers sacrifices on it? God can do whatever God pleases.
You don't get to dictate what God will do. I have no clue in regards to sacrifices. You don't even accept they can procreate with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Why would you accept if I said sacrifices will happen?
When do you think God placed an alter in the Garden of Eden? If perfect sons of God can procreate, why not in the Millennium. You seem to just pick and choose verses that imply your bias, but forget there are other verses besides your's.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He's obviously not on the earth, but He reigns over the earth. What else did He mean when He said all power/authority was given to Him in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)?
This talks about the kingdom of this world becoming the kingdom of our Lord, which is the Father, and of His Christ. This is talking about when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, which will happen at His return.
You acknowledge that you "have no clue in regards to sacrifices". If Zechariah 14:16-21 will be fulfilled in the future in a literal way, as you believe, then that implies that animal sacrifices would be reinstated. What you seem to be saying here is "So what if that is the case? God can do what He wants". Yes, God can do what He wants, but He also wouldn't do something contradictory like that. He didn't have His Son make the once for all sacrifice for all of our sins while taking away animal sacrifices and offerings only to reinstate them again later as if Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is all your opinion.
Does God offer sacrifices on the alter and temple in Heaven?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, we're all giving our opinions here. That goes without saying. I don't recall saying that what I said was a proven fact. But, if I'm wrong, explain why. Just saying that God can do what He wants is not a sufficient explanation when what you think He will do (or might do) would contradict what He has done in the past.
No, I'm pretty sure He doesn't. What is the point of this question?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The coming of the glorious LORD does indeed draw nigh . And HE shall indeed come quickly .
The only thing i can add to that is ...............EVEN SO COME GLORIOUS LORD JESUS .
Now put those hands up , for its LORD praising and thanking time .
DO be prepared to lose all for JESUS sake . cause so long as we are in this world , its hatred is only gonna increase against us .
Be winning souls , be building one another up with sound bible doctrine and be ye watching
for ye know not the day nor hour the LORD does come . Again i say As did john , EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS .
The only thing i can add to that is ...............EVEN SO COME GLORIOUS LORD JESUS .
Now put those hands up , for its LORD praising and thanking time .
DO be prepared to lose all for JESUS sake . cause so long as we are in this world , its hatred is only gonna increase against us .
Be winning souls , be building one another up with sound bible doctrine and be ye watching
for ye know not the day nor hour the LORD does come . Again i say As did john , EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS .
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Are you saying there is not an alter and temple in heaven?
The point being any sacrifices will not be from the Law of Moses from Mt. Sinai. Those did not replace the Atonement any way. Those redeemed in the OT still were looking at the future Lamb, not their failed experience as sinners and daily sacrifices.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did I say that? No, I clearly did not. So, why are you asking me this?
What would be the point of any future animal sacrifices? Keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices. And you believe people will be required to observe the feast of tabernacles in the future. So, what would be the purpose of that exactly?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The same purpose an alter and temple are found in heaven. Just because you think sacrifices are not necessary, does not mean God has no purpose involving an alter and temple. Ask God what the point is. Your point does not rule out a Millennium. There is not even sin in the Millennium. So any sacrifices would not cover sin as sin is not around to cover. Surely there is more to a sacrifice than sin.
Romans 12:1
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The sacrifices done in relation to observing the feast of tabernacles were done for sin. Why would that ever need to be done again when Christ made His "once for all" sacrifice long ago? You keep trying to say they would be done for some other reason. Where does scripture say that? Read about the feast of tabernacles yourself instead of making up your own rules about what is done to observe the feast of tabernacles.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
First off, the Feast of Tabernacles is not a sin offering. Certainly during the week at least when they were serious about their sins, it had within the framework sin offerings. Certainly you don't think the Feast of Tabernacles for the last 1992 years had legitimate sin offerings.
It was a celebration of the ingatherings each year. In fact Zechariah 14 does not mention sin offerings at all. So if you want to stick to your guns and jump to conclusions, go ahead and knock yourself out.
Certainly the Feast of Tabernacles can go on year after year without sin offerings and not change a thing. Zechariah 14:16-21
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts."
You can force sin offerings into the text all day long, but that may be considered making stuff up, if I were to do it. Obviously it is OK for Amil, but pre-mill get called out for doing that.
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