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Featured The Study of Revelation

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Harvest 1874, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    Revelation Chapter 12

    Having we believe established the fact that the scriptures clearly imply both LITERAL heavens as well as SYMBOLIC heavens, we will now proceed in our study of Rev 12:1 to determine which of these “heavens” is being referred to in our text. We believe that the answer will be made quite clear upon a further explanation of the “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars” that seen found in these “heavens”.

    Note: If you have not yet examined our study on the key word, “heaven”, please do it can be found under our blog post, “How to study the book of Revelation”. The word “heaven” as used in the scriptures carries various meanings both literal and symbolic and unless you are aware of these various meanings it is easy to get confused.

    We now continue with,

    Verse 1Now a great sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet and on her head a garland of twelve stars.”

    In the Bible a woman can represent either the true Church, if she’s a virgin, (See Matt 25), or the false [apostate] church, if she’s a harlot (Rev 17:1, 18)

    “Now notice in Rev 17:18 that the “woman” being referred to there by the angel of the Lord, was likewise referred to as a “Great City”, i.e. “Babylon the Great” the great counterfeit or apostate church (See Chapter 18 which speaks of “her” fall and final demise). Then turn to Rev 21:9, 10 and notice this same angle speaks of the TRUE Church, the “bride, the Lambs wife” also as a “Great City”, i.e. “The Holy Jerusalem”.

    You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.” (Matt 5:14)

    A woman as used in the scriptures can also represent a covenant.

    As a covenant she pictures the “Sarah Covenant” (“The New Jerusalem Covenant” of Gal 4:26, the “Covenant of sacrifice” of Psa 50:5). Some call her the “Grace Covenant”. She is the Covenant under which the Church is developed. (Rom 6:14)

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bond-WOMAN, the other by a free-WOMAN. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are symbolic (an allegory, a type): FOR THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; the one from the Mount Sinai, which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem, which now is, and is in bondage with her children (i.e. Israel after the flesh, the natural seed). But Jerusalem (the city) which is above is free, which is the mother of us all (“The Church is developed under the same Covenant-Mother as was Christ. His was a Covenant of sacrifice”. Gal 4:22-26

    Regardless of whether she be considered as representing the true Church or the Covenant of Grace,
    (for in truth they are one in the same); she is clothed with the sun (the Gospel) but has her standing upon the moon (the Law and prophets) as a foundation. Her head (the part which thinks) is crowned by the 12 light-bearers (the 12 Apostles, her divinely appointed and inspired teachers).

    As the moon symbolized "the Law," so the sun symbolizes the Gospel light. The former was but a shadow or reflection of the latter. The Law, which supports her, is nevertheless not the source of her light. She is not under (developed by) the Law (the moon), but under Grace (sunlight, the Gospel light); yet she is supported by the teachings of the Law and rested on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

    The moon is pictured as being under the feet of the woman because she is (a) above the Law, and yet (b) in harmony with its principles. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” (Rom 8:4). Just as the sun is superior to the moon in the natural heavens, and is the greater of the two lights (Gen. 1:16), so the illumination of the Gospel is superior to that of the Law.”

    Now before we present our final interpretation of the First Verse of Chapter 12 we should like (in our next post) to go back and review some of the facts we have learned thus far, filling in some of the blanks if you will which we may have overlooked.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  2. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    Revelation Chapter 12

    Now as you recall we broke down the “heavens” into two distinct groups, the literal heavens and the symbolic heavens, and then further went on to show how each of these two groups were subsequently divided into three parts. Now however we would like to consider another view of the “heavens” take from another perspective one which we believe might shed further light upon our subject, this view is expressed by another fine brother in his book ("The Revelation Decoded and Explained", Page 160)

    The thought expressed is that the heavens are divided into three parts which he designates as follows:

    1) The far off “heaven of heavens” the abode of God all Mighty and the heavenly host,

    2) The unseen, invisible heaven; in the atmosphere of this earth, the abode of Satan and his cohorts the fallen angels, and

    3) That which we find most enlightening the heaven in the society of our world. This third heaven consists of the “powers that be”; the political, the financial, and the ecclesiastical organizations, which are the controlling elements in our society, although in the verse under discussion we are concerned primarily with the ecclesiastical arrangement during its inception into the heavenly society.

    I personally find this most enlightening as this takes in the full spectrum of the woman, the “Great City”, the great counterfeit or apostate churchBabylon the Great” with consideration for her three parts (Rev 16:19) the political, the financial, and the ecclesiastical parts the controlling elements of our society.

    Keeping this in mind will aid in our interpretation of the text.

    Now a great sign appeared in heaven; a woman ...”

    It is important here that we clearly grasp what is being stated, “a great sign appeared in heaven; a woman”, the woman IS the sign; her appearance in the heavens at this particular time gives sign evidence or proof to something. Just as in Matt 24:29 a sign appeared in heaven which gave evidence or proof to something, in that particular instance the sign was the thing which testified or verified to us the presence of the Son of Man (his Parousia). What was this thing this proof? There were many proofs, but what was the one central proof or evidence which testified to us that the Lord was present, the sign?

    And then he shall send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, [even] Jesus: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old.” (Acts 3:20, 21)

    The dispensational change, from the Gospel Age to the Millennial Age this was the sign, the sign which likewise marked the end of the 6,000 year reign of evil and beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ. The date marked by the Jubilee cycles as the beginning of the Times of Restitution.

    Some brethren likewise consider the appearance of the man with the “writer’s ink-horn” (the “Seventh Messenger”) at this time, who was likewise told to “Go in among the wheels” to be associated with this “sign” (Ezek 9:2; 10:2) as an additional evidence of the Lord's Parousia.

    And so too in regards to our texts, with a slight adjustment we see it thusly viz.

    Now a great sign; a woman clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet and on her head a garland of twelve stars appeared in heaven (in the controlling elements of society, the ecclesiastical element or realm), the appearance of this sign the “woman”, the true Church, marked the end of the Jewish Age and the beginning of the Gospel Age, a dispensational change.)

    “Thus John, in vision, witnessed the first stage of the Church, the Ephesian (stage: meaning “First” or “desirable”) as a woman in “heaven”, the ecclesiastical heavens in strikingly beautiful array.

    Initially seen in such favorable light, the scene swiftly changes into one of perplexing anxiety.”

    We will take a look at Verse 2 in our next post.
     
  3. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with saying that we need the Spirit to lead us in understanding.
    I have a problem with you anointing yourself in the role of the one who has superior understanding excluding all others. If you truly think your understanding is from the Lord, present your case, complete with bible verses and let people judge for themselves, through their own Spirit guided understanding and careful study of the scriptures. Standing up and outright announcing that 'all who cometh forth and disagreeth with your teaching is not of the Lord...eth'
    That's a little on your high horse, isn't it?
     
  4. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    Apparently you missed our response to your previous post, Please see Post#20
     
  5. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Harvest,
    How many people are helping you with your posts? Just about everything you say is, "We" or "Us" or "Our."
     
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  6. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    You said:
    So...only those (which seems to be you, as you are stepping up as teacher) have "true" enlightenment.
    This blatantly means that those who mean to appeal against your teaching, according to you, do not have "true" enlightenment sent by God.
    You show from the very opening post that while people are 'free' to disagree with you, no matter how they express their view or what verses they may have in hand to show their point, in the end, you'll essentially fall back on your superior "in" with God and his knowledge, which dismisses everything but your enlightenment.

    Sometimes happens when you are writing a response at the same time.
     
  7. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I've always wondered about that! Is it the "royal we?" Or is Harvest actually a couple? Or...is he talking on behalf of his group of faith? Which is still a bizare way to express yourself...
     
  8. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    No one is helping me; (save the Lord), I live by myself and make all my own post. As for my reference to “we”, “us” or “our” when stating such I am referring specifically to what we Bible Students believe, although it’s true that not in every detail (especially in regards to prophecies yet fulfilled) are Bible Students in agreement, but in respects to the basics of the Divine Plan of the Ages as expressed in the scriptures we are of one faith.

    But there is an even greater significance to our referring to ourselves as we, us, or our and that is that it is the scriptural correct term to use by all who are joined to the body.

    Who are “We”?

    WE” are the church, the body of Christ, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are ONE BODY: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For THE BODY IS NOT ONE MEMBER, BUT MANY.” (1 Cor 12:12-14)

    The same thought is pictured by “grapes” Grapes are produced by the branches, which abide in the vine for their life. "Ye are the branches . . . the same brings forth much fruit" (John 15:5). This blood is the offering of the church. "If any man shall be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24);

    "For if we be dead with him we shall also live with him" (2 Tim 2:11); "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord" (2 Cor 4:10); " appointed unto death . . ." (1 Cor 4:9; " . . . a witness [martyr] of the sufferings of Christ" (1 Peter 5:1); " . . . ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings" (1 Peter 4:13); "And fill up [Strongs #466, `supplement’ or `complete’] that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ for his body’s sake" (Col. 1:24); "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection" (Rom. 6:5); "We are all members of Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12; 6:15); "Else . . . why then are they (we) baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor 15:29).

    As the branches have no life except they be in the vine, so all merit comes from our Lord Jesus Christ. The church has no intrinsic merit at all. It is Christ’s merit that passes through the church giving her justification, making her right in God’s eyes. It is one cup, though it be the juice of many grapes, even as it is one loaf, though it be from many grains. The grains cannot maintain their INDIVIDUALITY and their own life if they would become bread for others; the grapes cannot maintain THEMSELVES as grapes if they would constitute the life-giving spirit; and thus we see the beauty of the apostle's statement that the Lord's people are participants in the one loaf and cup.... There is no other way that we can attain the new nature than by accepting the Lord's invitation to drink of His cup, and be BROKEN with Him as members of the one loaf, and to be buried with Him in baptism into His death, and thus to attain with Him resurrection glory, honor and immortality.

    Thus when I refer toweI am speaking of the body as a whole, not as any one member, for there is no schism in the body of Christ.

    Notice the way in which the Apostle Paul addresses those to whom he is speaking in his epistles,

    For we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, of our trouble which came to us in Asia: that we were burdened beyond measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life. Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us, you also helping together in prayer for us, that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the gift granted to us through many.” 2 Cor 1:8-11

    Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” 2 Cor 5:20

    Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.” 1 Cor 4:1

    For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.” 1 Thess 2:13

    You get the idea.

    The Apostles rarely mentions himself if avoidable, as “self” is to be crucified (deaden with Christ), “I die daily” (1 Cor 15:31) thus he addresses the church in the plural sense, as the body is composed of many members and no individuals save that of the head of the body which is Christ.

    Thus there is no "me", "myself" or "I" only "we", "us" or "our".

    The only exception being when stating a personal viewpoint or opinion.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    But you will not find any Scriptural basis for making such a claim. What you will find is (a) the heavens are plural and (b) Paul calls God's Heaven (the ultimate heaven) "the third heaven".

    Which implies that there are two other heavens. We know that the atmosphere will therefore be "the first heaven", while outer space will be "the second heaven".

    AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING *SYMBOLIC about any of these heavens.
     
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  10. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I think you would find that the reason plural pronouns are used in Pauls letters is that he is actually dicctating them because of his poor sight. So there are at least two people there, the writer, and Paul who signed off on them.
     
  11. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    Your literalist interpretation of Revelation blinds you of the facts, I refer you to our study on Heaven as found in our blog post.
     
  12. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    That may be equally so but it does not detract from the point made.

    Do you imagine the Apostles statement in 2 Cor 5:20 was only in reference to himself and Timothy or to any others which were with him at the time and not to all the saints called to be Ambassadors of Christ?

    The Apostle was not only speaking of himself and those with him, but he was likewise referring to all the consecrated Church as able ministers, qualified ministers or servants of God’s grace, Ambassadors of Christ, representatives of Jesus in making known to the world the blessings which he has to offer, secured through his sacrifice?

    Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.” 1 Cor 4:1

    Do you not equally consider yourself a servant of Christ and a steward of the mysteries of God?
     
  13. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    God gives men His understanding of His Word.<---- Scripture I agree with.

    ^ Your words I do not agree with.

    Okay.

    Okay.

    People converse, people agree and disagree.
    Everyone can participate in a conversation.

    Scripture reveals how a man arrives at enlightenment and understanding.

    Scripture reveals there is:
    Worldly enlightenment and:
    .....Worldly understanding.
    Spiritual enlightenment and:
    ......Spiritual understanding.

    I don't know WHO knows that, or even considers that.

    Until...an other speaks for themselves.

    I, like everyone else, make my own choices to believe what I do.
    I, have no obligation to be IN Agreement with what every other believes.
    I, have no obligation to prove or disprove what others say or believe.
    I, simply speak for myself.

    Paying attention to WHAT others say, is revealing, to the point of WHAT THEY rely on FOR enlightenment and understanding.

    Worldly enlightenment and Worldly understanding is rampant in the World and on this forum.

    Spiritual enlightenment and Spiritual understanding is scarce in the World and on this forum.

    World enlightenment and understanding ~
    Applies to Everyone, to a degree.

    The degree IS, determined by What an individual chooses to Learn and Understand concerning ANY particular Subject.
    (For example if one chooses to Learn (be enlightened) to basic math, and Understands (Comprehends) basic math.....but does not
    Learn (become enlightened) to Algebra, nor Understands (comprehends) Algebra.....that person is limited to a DEGREE, pertaining to the Subject of Math, by that persons OWN choosing.


    Spiritual enlightenment and Spiritual understanding ~
    Does NOT apply to Everyone. It is a Gift from God, to Particular people, For Particular things, For Particular reasons.

    Particular people ~ are the people WHO choose to hear and read Scripture. (The knowledge of God; the word of God; that Enlightens men.)
    The Englightenment is based on the individuals own choice of What and How much the person is willing to HEAR, READ, and BELIEVE.

    Particular things ~ are the Specific things ANY one person IS Hearing, Reading, Believing.
    ( The Scriptures are thousands of word and specific Subjects. If one is hearing and reading and believing ONE subject and another is hearing and reading and believing another subject, Trying to have a Conversation between the two, is moot.)

    Particular reasons ~ Is more specific as to HOW (in what manner) hears, reads, What Scriptures Say.

    Manner ~ A Headline reader? Hears a claim?
    Believes it without verifying? Relies on others to do the reading, comparing, verifying FOR them? Reads like a novel chapter after chapter and content with remembering the basic highlights, but not the details?
    Unable to KNOW what IN Scripture applies to THEM personally, and what doesn't?

    And WHAT? A facade of content that one is "enlightened".....BY THE word of God?........ When in FACT it is an elementary effort? On the part of the person?

    ^ That is Acceptable TO the World, For Worldly enlightenment (Learning).

    That is NOT Acceptable TO God.
    It is Gods desire to Give men His Spiritual Understanding OF HIS WORD.

    How IS that possible FOR God TO GIVE a man His Spiritual Understanding of His Word, TO A MAN, Who doesn't Know IF it IS Gods Word, they heard, or doesn't remember what the man heard or read, or skimmed the details to know what they said?

    It is not complicated.

    If one is given...(enlightened, learned)

    2 + 2 = ___

    But do not remember what + or = is...
    They are not prepared for the understanding.

    It is the SAME with God.
    If one is not PREPARING themselves WITH His Knowledge (enlightenment)....they are NOT preparing themselves to Receive His Understanding.

    Without being OFFENDED, little children have no problem with hearing, learning, admitting they do not know, they do not remember, they forgot, they were not diligent, they do not understand.....UNLIKE ADULTS.

    My perspective, Worldly and Spiritually.
    It doesn't matter IF you or anyone else agrees or not.

    I am content with my relationship with Lord.
    My relationship(S) with people OF and IN the world is the challenge. Sometimes content, sometimes not....full well expected, when I chose to DRINK from the SAME CUP of INDIGNATION that Jesus did.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  14. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Who precisely is "we" ?

    Thanks,
    Glory to God,

    Taken
     
  15. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    See Post#28
     
  16. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Thank you,

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  17. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    Your words not mine.

    It is obvious that you have gotten all hung up on our earlier statement:

    “Only those who possess true spiritual enlightenment, (the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit) will be able to grasp the true significance of this chapter, others will most likely continue to believe the various imaginings of men as taught by the church nominal.”

    The significance of this statement was that only those in possession of the spirit, guided by the spirit would be able to properly grasp the true significance of this chapter, that it is to be view as seen through the eyes of orthodoxy (the professing church) and not the true church, many having been fully indoctrinated into the teachings of the false church would continue to believe it as it is taught by them.

    This does not imply that all that hold to this erroneous view point are not spirit enlightened merely that some have so long been fed off the husk of the doctrines and traditions of men that even though they be spirit begotten they still have difficulty rightly dividing the word (distinguishing truth and error). Or as the Apostle Paul expresses it such are “unskilled in the word of righteousness” being that they are still “babes in Christ”.

    Do you imagine that all the spirit begotten are of the same level of development and understanding? Certainly a “youth” would possess greater understanding than a babe, and a mature Christian greater understanding than a youth. Understand I am not implying that I myself am a mature Christian, a copy of God’s dear son, fully grown in both the knowledge and the graces of our Lord Jesus Christ, far from it, but I have been privileged to be in the truth for quite some time now following the Lord’s great mercy when he called me out of darkness into his marvelous light.

    I once held many of the erroneous doctrines espoused by the professing church, but like Paul following his conversion I now consider most of these former things as dung, the worthless babblings of men. (Phil 3:8)

    Time to move on my sister, and not let words mistakenly misunderstood bog you down.
     
  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, God grants me wisdom and understanding as they read his word, as they pray for it and seek it when they want him with all their heart. I agree with this as well.
    What I do not agree with is someone standing at the front of the class, so to speak, and declaring to all and sundry that 'his' particular understanding is superior, nay, the only true wisdom from God, and those who disagree with him only have the pitiful understanding of men.

    So, you disagree with my statement that I disagreed with his disagreeing that we have wisdom from God?

    Except you now agree, apparently that I question his interpetation of things. So, wouldn't that mean you agree to my disagreeing?

    This may all well be true. But Harvest has cut any of this out of the equation. He's basically said that it doesn't matter if you have sought God and have gained a Spiritual understanding on these matters. If, when push comes to shove, you and he disagree on something he is teaching here, he will fall back on what he has said...and claim you do not have a 'true spiritual enlightenment that comes from God'...that only he does.
    How does he propose to back that claim? How does he propose to disabuse others of their claim to careful prayer and spiritual study of the same scripture? He doesn't, he just says "i'm of the true, you are not".
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Yes, perhaps. But note that the letter to the Corinthians begins...
    "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church....". Simple grammatical accuracy demands the plural pronouns.
     
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  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Can't say I read him make that claim.

    Agree.

    Agree. And HAVE heard men make their own declarations that their interpretations and understanding IS what they have logically concluded, what commentaries have said, what philosophers have said, and also denominations who encourage personal interpretations.
    And the WORST, people who blatenly claim there are "portions" of Scripture they DO NOT believe, believe they ARE "prepared" to accounted as Teachers of Gods Word.

    ..."his", specifically the "OP" writer...after reading his FIRST opening post, I was not in agreement with him, or continued reading all his postings.

    In general I responded to you, without realizing you were making specific comments about something he said. Sorry.

    Gotcha.

    Hope you clearly get I am not in agreement with him...thus on that we agree.

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
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