The Study of Revelation

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Harvest 1874

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This may all well be true. But Harvest has cut any of this out of the equation. He's basically said that it doesn't matter if you have sought God and have gained a Spiritual understanding on these matters. If, when push comes to shove, you and he disagree on something he is teaching here, he will fall back on what he has said...and claim you do not have a 'true spiritual enlightenment that comes from God'...that only he does.
How does he propose to back that claim? How does he propose to disabuse others of their claim to careful prayer and spiritual study of the same scripture? He doesn't, he just says "i'm of the true, you are not".

I'm pretty sure I've made it clear from the start that what I was presenting here is what we Bible Students have gleamed from the study of this chapter.

It is what we have come to believe to be true based on our studies of the scriptures, you are however free to disagree and post your own thoughts. Nor did we say or imply that those who differ from us were not spirit begotten, that was wholly something you have concocted. We have tried to explain ourselves (See post#37), but it appears you are still hung up on this and unwilling to move on.

If you believe we have erred in our interpretation of Verse 1 please feel free to post your own viewpoint, we stand by ours as we believe it to be in harmony with the scriptures. You may believe the same as regards your own.
 

Harvest 1874

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Revelation Chapter 12

Verse 2Then (that is later) being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.”

“If we locate it aright, the woman (as depicted in Verse 2) is seen in this vision about 308 A.D., and has been in the "Smyrna" stage of the Church as described in Rev 2:8-10.”

Persecuted and reviled, she was pained to be delivered, and longed for the completion of the promisedseed of the woman, which should bruise the servants head” (Gen 3:15)

“She wants to be delivered of her true seed (the Wheat class). Unfortunately, as we shall see, and as we know from Jesus’ parable of the Wheat and the Tares, there will also be a false seed (Tares). That her seed is plural may be seen by the reading of Verse 17 where it refers to the “remnant of her seed.”

As The Apostle’s Paul and John had warnedthe mystery of lawlessness was already at work” (2 Thess 2:7; 1 John 4:3) a very small yet persistent and determined minority of the early Church membership possessed an impatient and inordinate desire for the promised Kingdom power. At first these individuals were vastly outnumbered and buried in proportional obscurity within the sincere majority body membership of the Ephesian stage of the Church. During that era, when their deeds surfaced, the brotherhood resented and responded to their impious behavior. The risen Lord commended the righteous majority, “I know… how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles (teachers), and are not, and hast found them liars (false prophets): … this thou hast, that thou hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans (those who would lord it over God’s people), which I also hate” (Rev 2:2, 6).

Nevertheless, that which began with certain individuals later, in the Smyrna Church era or stage, significantly increased in size and influence; and in Pergamos, the third era, this class constituted a clear and open majority, publicly representative of the whole. This distressing circumstance and progressive development in the professed Church of Christ caused those faithful and true to the Lord to experience pain and suffering, as pictured by the woman herself being in travail, crying out in pain, longing to be delivered of her internal agony.

Not only did the woman long to be delivered, but the growing numbers of the false element in her midst were also equally frustrated by the restricting influence of the holy class. Alas! The woman robed with the sun, and in labor, was somewhat comparable to the white horse of the First Seal, which was destined to come under the control and leadership of the rider bent on pursuit and conquest (Rev 6:2).”

“This woman cried and the baby grew in her womb and a birth was eminent. There was suffering and pain among these people, the “wheat and the tares”, alike. A separation was coming in the future; it was already in the works. These verses depict it as the birth of a human child, but a child it is not, but rather something else, something new, something different created out of the Church. Like as Jesus was born to a virgin, unmarried, but an espoused woman; so this picture shows that a new thing is to be created out from the virgin, unmarried, but espoused woman, espoused to Christ, the Christian Church.

The true Church, the wheat, was desirous of being freed from these factions of “tares”, but Jesus had said; “Let both (wheat and tares) grow together till the harvest.” So no separation of the work was expected way back then, nevertheless, The woman was pained to be delivered; she desired to be rid of the loathsome babe that Satan had planted in her womb (Matt 13:25).

The birth of the Antichrist from the early Church was a counterfeit of the birth of Christ from the Virgin Mary. But the birth was slow and other things happen…

John has seen this pregnant woman, in heaven (amongst the controlling elements of society); what an astounding sight for him, a great wonder” indeed. She was right up there among the ecclesiastical powers of the time,the powers that be, a place where the true Church of Christ should never have been, not yet, not in this age. (“The Revelation Decoded and Explained”, Page 163)

In this last statement a very important point is mentioned, the true Church has no part in the affairs of this world, the present order of things, or “powers that be” we are in the world yes, but not to be a part of it, and so we should not be found aspiring for a say or for a position in the affairs of this world whether they be political, economic or religious. This system or order of things is doomed, “Babylon is fallen” so what have we to do with her or any of her works, which are destined to come to not?

How often have you heard some saying, ‘There needs to be a revival in the church, a revival in the country, if we’re going to save this country?’ These fell to realize that even this once great nation is part of Babylon, a part of Christendom, that in stating such they are working against God, vainly attempting to repair that which God has already condemned.

The nominal church would have us believe that we have erred in our interpretation of these texts, that it is they who suffer and travail in birth, and indeed the Lord through the prophet Isaiah so pictures it, but not quite as they envision it. The prophet puts the following words in their mouth when at last they awake to the knowledge of the Lord’s presence.

As a woman with child is in pain and cries out in her pangs, when she draws near the time of her delivery, so have we (i.e. the nominal church) been in your sight O Lord. We have been with child, we have been in pain; we have, as it were brought forth wind; we have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth, nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.” (Isa 26:17, 18)

The nominal Church expects to convert the whole world eventually, but instead the percentage of Christians in the world is shrinking. The nominal Church has “brought forth wind [gas, emptiness].” The inhabitants of the world have not “fallen” prostrate in acknowledging that they are sinners and in recognizing Jesus as their only hope.

They claim that their principal object and aim is to convert sinners; to (spiritually) beget children, but alas their efforts have proven fruitless, they have only succeeded in bringing forth more “tares”, the blind that follow the blind, as stated their efforts have brought forth nothing butwind. (R 505)

We will continue our study with Verse 3 in our next post.
 

Willie T

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I'm pretty sure I've made it clear from the start that what I was presenting here is what we Bible Students have gleamed from the study of this chapter.

It is what we have come to believe to be true based on our studies of the scriptures, you are however free to disagree and post your own thoughts. Nor did we say or imply that those who differ from us were not spirit begotten, that was wholly something you have concocted. We have tried to explain ourselves (See post#37), but it appears you are still hung up on this and unwilling to move on.

If you believe we have erred in our interpretation of Verse 1 please feel free to post your own viewpoint, we stand by ours as we believe it to be in harmony with the scriptures. You may believe the same as regards your own.
No, just like most "enlighteners" here, you are only presenting what THEY have "gleaned" and told you to believe.

And it is no more valid nor orthodox than any other organization's "discoveries." You would have been a lot better off to have offered it in that light to begin with.... rather than being of an attitude seemingly no different than *Bol* who is also here to enlighten the rest of this forum of "unwashed and ignorant peasants" he looks down on as poor inferiors, as he obviously deems us to be.

It would seem wiser to have said: "Here is what the particular group I listen to says..... What do you think of their impressions?" Since that is, in essence, all you are ending up admitting. Because, in truth, the group calling themselves Bible Students is no more right or wrong than anyone else just putting their guess out there. They are just exercising the Protestant belief that each of us has the right to interpret the Bible as we see it. (Except that most of us end up exalting our own esoteric "popes" or "organizational magisterial papacies" that we accept as authorities.)
 
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bbyrd009

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No, just like most "enlighteners" here, you are only presenting what THEY have "gleaned" and told you to believe.
amen. Well that wouldn't be so bad if they were presented as beliefs, right, only they are not. they are now Absolute Truths presented by the latest Fascist, so of course there will be no discussion, no matter how many posts are made, only it takes a while to figure out you are talking to teflon lol huh, go ahead reader, post an objection and then read the deflection, and if you do miraculously get a reply that is actually pertinent pls tag me ty

isn't there some way we could herd all these oracles onto some eschatology thread and let them all duke it out until there's maybe only one or two left?
 

Willie T

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Harvest doesn't seem to be aware of this, but I actually agree with much of the boilerplate he copy/pastes. But, that is all it is, just some of my own opinions (that I was originally shown by someone else, in the first place) happening to align with some of theirs. There is not one bit of a way to ever claim any of us got it right...… only what WE think is more accurate than another person or group thinks.
 
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Willie T

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Please excuse me relapsing into worldly teachings, but it is a bit ingrained. (No, these are not original thoughts)

One of the most important findings of modern social psychology concerns the mechanisms by which ideas and values are absorbed and assimilated so that they appear “natural,” despite actually being nothing of the sort. It is widely conceded that the plausibility, legitimacy, and coherence of belief systems are created through social and cultural means. For religious believers of any persuasion, their faith engenders a sense of what is “natural” or “real” that structures their engagement with and understanding of the world. Yet the transmission and validation of religious ideas depend on a complex process of socialization in which certain institutions, authorities, and networks of relationships shape the way in which people think about and engage the world. It is impossible to understand any religious movement, including Catholicism or Protestantism, without exploring at least some aspects of this socialization and the mechanisms it involves.


Any movement — whether religious, political, or cultural — has both its “standard bearers” and its “scouts.” The standard bearers are those who see themselves as charged with the responsibility of maintaining traditional values and ideas; the scouts are those who are anxious to explore new frontiers and develop new ideas. Both are necessary, in that no movement can retain its core identity by freezing its ideas and values; there is a need for dynamic review in which the creative work of discernment of earlier ages is continued in the future. Paradoxical though it may appear at first sight, to stay the same a movement must change. So what are the dynamics of this process within Protestantism? Above all, who are the “guardians” of its ideas and values?


Any thoughts or ideas on those two questions in your own awareness?
 
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Willie T

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Some thoughts I have been studying..... No "rules", just stuff to fill your "Hummm box" (brain) with.

I have already noted the fundamentally democratic nature of Protestant theology: it is an enterprise that may be undertaken by any person, on the basis of a publicly available resource — the Bible. There is no question of any one interpretation being “privileged” or of any secret additional sources of divine knowledge that are accessible only to the initiated and upon which salvation ultimately depends. Nor is there any idea of a spiritual elite: no group of believers has the right to impose its views, whether on account of academic qualifications (the German Lutheran writer Martin Kähler described this as “a papacy of the professors”) or institutional seniority. Protestantism is adamant that the officeholders of the church are accountable to the church’s members for the interpretations of the Bible they offer in their preaching and teaching and that they may be challenged and corrected on its basis.

This approach is subversive of the authority of individual preachers and theologians, no matter how venerable, in that it insists that their views must be judged in the light of the Bible. Protestantism ultimately grounds itself in the Bible alone, not in any specific interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps anxious that some might come to regard Martin Luther as an infallible guide to Christian doctrine, Lutherans drafted the “Formula of Concord” (1577), which insists that no interpretation of scripture can be defined as normative. “Other writings, whether of the fathers or more recent theologians, no matter what their names may be, cannot be regarded as possessing equal status to Holy Scripture. All must be considered to be subordinate to it, and to witness to the way in which the teaching of the prophets and apostles was preserved in post-apostolic times and in different parts of the world.”

So how can any Protestant claim to speak with “authority” when Protestantism subverts that claim by insisting that all Christians are priests and that no case can be made for the present existence or future emergence of any kind of “spiritual elite” who are placed above others? The Protestant understanding of the place of the Bible in the Christian life is utterly and irreconcilably opposed to placing any human figure, agency, or institution above it. This would seem to lead to the conclusion that Protestantism is a democratic faith: because the views of every believer are of equal value, it is impossible for authority figures to emerge.

The logic may be sound, but the reality is somewhat different. In practice, authority figures play an important role in Protestantism. The denominations in which the “priesthood of all believers” is most vigorously upheld as a matter of principle, such as the “Open Brethren,” tend to lie outside the mainstream of Protestantism. The Open Brethren movement does not recognize an ordained ministry, although the New Testament offices of elder and deacon are retained. “Gifted brothers” and “gifted sisters” play an important role in the leadership of these communities, but these persons are not understood to be ordained. Yet even in such a denomination, certain figures emerge and come to be regarded as authoritative by others.
 
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bbyrd009

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without exploring at least some aspects of this socialization and the mechanisms it involves.
imo this is essential, and it is also why we don't teach any like Psych 101 or Human Nature 101 in High School, bc then ppl would learn terms like Hegelian Dialectic and etc and actually be able to discuss their beliefs cogently
Paradoxical though it may, at first sight, appear to stay the same, a movement must change. So what are the dynamics of this process within Protestantism? Above all, who are the “guardians” of its ideas and values?
Any thoughts or ideas on that question in your own awareness?
ah well the first one that comes to mind is "come out of her, my ppl" lol, but as you say human movements must evolve/change, and after all that is what we are called to do too, change our minds, right.

So imo the dynamics are basically Strong Men with agendas--the ones we seek to be our kings iow--Incorporate the latest sect, the one that was just created to escape the Incorporation, and thus alter many of the ideas and values too, which also evolve over time imo.

But being as how the central idea, the starting point we all believe, and all hold in common--the Cult of Sol Invictus, iow--is so entrenched now, imo it would be pretty hard to even define these ideas and values to mutual satisfaction i guess, although i expect some oracle in here any second who either isn't quite sure what "mutual" means or just doesn't care to be posting a detailed list i guess. And being as how their focus is on their stomach i don't have to worry about this paragraph even being seen, as long as i bury it in a little more text like i'm doing right now. Of course i would much prefer to not invoke them at all but they are the subject here, and strange as it seems they serve God, too.

if one is susceptible to charismatic ppl who claim to have a crystal ball and who are completely focussed on tomorrow, after all of the warnings in Scripture, then the best thing for them is to become a believer, Catholic or Prot is irrelevant imo. Especially if they are determined to become an Immortal, i guess
 
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Willie T

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I posted all that verbiage to say...… Please don't any of us try to sell a view of something we may have found cool or interesting as some sort of Biblical fact that is "THE Truth" we are graciously imparting to others.
 
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bbyrd009

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So how can any Protestant claim to speak with “authority” when Protestantism subverts that claim by insisting that all Christians are priests
well, followers are priests i guess, even if all of those IDing as Christian are not
The Protestant understanding of the place of the Bible in the Christian life is utterly and irreconcilably opposed to placing any human figure, agency, or institution above it.
This would seem to lead to the conclusion that Protestantism is a democratic faith: because the views of every believer are of equal value, it is impossible for authority figures to emerge.
1 Samuel 8 outlines how we trade a spiritual monarchy for an earthly one. Imo the illusion of democracy persists bc as older seekers get hip that their initial beliefs were not as accurate as they had at first thought, via reap what you sow, then new seekers eager to enforce the democracy have arisen to perpetuate the myth
In practice, authority figures play an important role in Protestantism.
as in any affair of the world, yes
 
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Jay Ross

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If you believe we have erred in our interpretation of Verse 1 please feel free to post your own viewpoint, we stand by ours as we believe it to be in harmony with the scriptures. You may believe the same as regards your own.

A very new age thing to do, I believe.
 
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Harvest 1874

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No, just like most "enlighteners" here, you are only presenting what THEY have "gleaned" and told you to believe.

No it’s what I believe. When I stated what I present here is what we Bible Students have gleamed from the study of this chapter that means I include myself in this we. I myself am a Bible Student.

Before one accepts any teaching from another they are admonished to follow the example of the Bereans, to “prove all things” for themselves, to “try the spirits” to prove the testimony to see whether it be from God or men. The church did not sit at the feet of the Apostles with blank unreasoning minds, but with a disposition to try the spirits to prove their testimony so intern we too follow this principle.


And it is no more valid nor orthodox than any other organization's "discoveries." You would have been a lot better off to have offered it in that light to begin with.... rather than being of an attitude seemingly no different than *Bol* who is also here to enlighten the rest of this forum of "unwashed and ignorant peasants" he looks down on as poor inferiors, as he obviously deems us to be.

You totally miss the point, the true Church is not orthodox, thus its teachings are generally at odds with those held and taught through the creeds of men. As for the validity of what we present that’s for the discriminating student of the word to decide for him or herself. Let he who has an ear hear what the spirit is saying.


It would seem wiser to have said: "Here is what the particular group I listen to says..... What do you think of their impressions?"


I’m pretty sure the statement, “here is what we Bible Students have gleamed from the study of this chapter” implies the same thing.



As for the latter part of your statement, isn’t this a forum? Why should someone ask others for their impressions, isn’t this to be expected on a forum?


Why would someone make a post if they did not expect to receive the thoughts and impressions of others, whether positive or negative?


"...the group calling themselves Bible Students is no more right or wrong than anyone else just putting their guess out there..."

A “guess” is nothing more than unsubstantiated thoughts and or conjectures, Bible Students do not engage in hunches or guesswork, we study the scriptures thoroughly to substantiate facts not guesses.
 
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Willie T

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hmm, besides facts? like what else iyo?
Well, let's take the "Caravan" as an example, that's a "biggie" these days.
The only "fact" is that people are walking through Mexico.
One faction says the truth is that their eventual arrival will hurt America.
The other says the truth is that this is a great benefit to America.


Proponents of either side are almost willing to die on the hill of their belief in what they think is "The Truth."