The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Zao is life]

Imagine the day when Jesus returns.All the media blocked the news.It was that day that Jesus came and was treated as a thief.I think maybe he came, but he was guarded like a thief.that day may be darker as night.

All Jesus means is He will come unexpectedly - not only unexpectedly to the unbelievers, but also to the saints - and those who were not ready, waiting and watching for His return, but allowed themselves to be preoccupied with the things of the world and if this life will be caught naked without their wedding garments on.

 

[Zao is life]

Why don't FINISH QUOTING what I wrote (post #235), and you just might understand it by His Holy Spirit.

At the judgment seat of Christ Jesus will reward those who were faithful with what they were given, with much more, and those who were unfaithful with what they were given, with much less - and many are going to be embarrassed.

Without the judgment seat of Christ, you are not going to really know who's who in the Kingdom of God - but the time for appearances and pretenses will have passed because the judgment seat of Christ will have made appearances and pretenses ineffective.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So am I.

Neither do I. Nor did I deny it.

I never said that. Read my post again.

You said "IMO your OP is taking two different subjects and combining them into one.". In my OP I quoted two passages in support of what I was saying, which are 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, your comment came across as if you were claiming that those two passages refer to two different subjects.

In the Revelation you see that those who went through the events at the end of the age are seated on thrones. You see how in chapter 15, those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

You see how in chapter 20, those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen seated on thrones, and they are alive [zao], and reigning with Christ for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6), where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

They are not said to have part in the firstfruits of the resurrection, because Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4).

These are individual saints that John is talking about. No individual saint has ever lived a thousand years or reigned with Christ a thousand years.

"This is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis]. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:5b-6).

They are not said to have part in the firstfruits of the resurrection, because Christ alone is the firstfruits of the resurrection. It is through the power of His resurrection that the first resurrection of the body in the case of those who belong to Him at the time of His return, will occur.​

I already addressed all of this in my previous post. Think about what Revelation 20:6 is saying. To me, it's saying that having part in the first resurrection is a requirement in order to be a priest of God and of Christ, which we are right now (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6) and in order for the second death to have no power over us and over the dead in Christ, which is true right now. So, tell me how those who are alive when Jesus returns can avoid the second death when Revelation 20:6 indicates that having part in the first resurrection is necessary to avoid the second death?

If you took note of my post and read it noting the fact that I separated only Revelation 20:9 from the other posts in the New Testament which talk about the destruction of the rudiments of the world and the works of men at the time of the return of Christ, you would have understood why I was giving biblical facts which should tell any reader that Revelation 20:9 cannot be talking about the time of the return of Christ.

LOL. It's always funny when someone tries to insist that their opinions are facts. Thanks for the laugh.

Besides that, as you know unlike yourself I cannot hold myself ignorant and in denial of the biblical facts that torpedo any theory about the "binding of Satan", in any form till now.

LOL. Again you are confusing facts with your opinions. Too funny.

Even if you stand on your head and whistle Auld Lang Syne through your nose, you will never be able to change the fact that there are two witnesses in Revelation 20 regarding the timing for the commencement of the thousand years which you hold yourself in ignorance and denial of - the binding of Satan, and what Revelation has to say about when exactly it came about that saints had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.

If only it were that easy for me to do the same I could agree with the title of the subject of your thread as I do with almost everything else you say to others in your posts.​

And, once again, you confuse facts with your faulty opinions. Your lack of understanding of what the beast represents is a major reason why you don't understand the timing of Satan's binding. Your denial that passages like Hebrews 2:14-15 relate to his binding also prevents you from seeing the truth of the matter. Also, your insistence on interpreting text within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible as literally as you possibly can is a deterrent for you seeing the truth of this matter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Imagine the day when Jesus returns.All the media blocked the news.It was that day that Jesus came and was treated as a thief.I think maybe he came, but he was guarded like a thief.that day may be darker as night.

Jesus has not come yet. Where do you get that idea from that He already came? I mean, He obviously came once long ago, but Him coming like a thief in the night is talking about His return in the future.

 

[Zao is life]

You said "IMO your OP is taking two different subjects and combining them into one.". In my OP I quoted two passages in support of what I was saying, which are 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, your comment came across as if you were claiming that those two passages refer to two different subjects.


I already addressed all of this in my previous post. Think about what Revelation 20:6 is saying. To me, it's saying that having part in the first resurrection is a requirement in order to be a priest of God and of Christ, which we are right now (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6) and in order for the second death to have no power over us and over the dead in Christ, which is true right now. So, tell me how those who are alive when Jesus returns can avoid the second death when Revelation 20:6 indicates that having part in the first resurrection is necessary to avoid the second death?


LOL. It's always funny when someone tries to insist that their opinions are facts. Thanks for the laugh.


LOL. Again you are confusing facts with your opinions. Too funny.


And, once again, you confuse facts with your faulty opinions. Your lack of understanding of what the beast represents is a major reason why you don't understand the timing of Satan's binding. Your denial that passages like Hebrews 2:14-15 relate to his binding also prevents you from seeing the truth of the matter. Also, your insistence on interpreting text within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible as literally as you possibly can is a deterrent for you seeing the truth of this matter.

Well IMO your linking the words "for a thousand years, which will be undone for a short period when the thousand years is completed" to Hebrews 2:14-16 and linking it to Satan's deceit of the nations speaks volumes about how long you think it will be that Christ's death and resurrection overcame Satan for.

It also speaks volumes about what you think about Christ's defeat of Satan's power over death, it "lasting only a thousand years and all" (which is what you imply by linking Hebrews 2:14-16 to Revelation 20:1-3).

Your lack of being able to see the ridiculous implications of your linking scriptures together that do not fit together speaks volumes about the reason for your lack of understanding.

 

[Earburner]

I never said otherwise! Unbelievable...

All Jesus means is He will come unexpectedly - not only unexpectedly to the unbelievers, but also to the saints - and those who were not ready, waiting and watching for His return, but allowed themselves to be preoccupied with the things of the world and if this life will be caught naked without their wedding garments on.

The "wedding garment" is the Holy Spirit.
Anyone and everyone who does NOT HAVE the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Rom. 8:9.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit leaves a born again Christian, if they are consciously unaware of the Lord's sudden return???

 

[Zao is life]

The "wedding garment" is the Holy Spirit.
Anyone and everyone who does NOT HAVE the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Rom. 8:9.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit leaves a born again Christian, if they are consciously unaware of the Lord's sudden return???

No but Jesus says the same thing to the church in Laodicea that He does to His churches in Revelation 16:15, So if you can explain what Jesus means by "keeping your garments" and what the destiny of the five foolish virgins and of those who never kept their garments is, and why this implies that they once had oil in their lamps and once were clothed with wedding garments (but somehow no longer by the time of the return of Christ),

then maybe you can also explain to me why both groups were found in His church at the time of His return.

 

[Earburner]

At the judgment seat of Christ Jesus will reward those who were faithful with what they were given, with much more, and those who were unfaithful with what they were given, with much less - and many are going to be embarrassed.

Nope!
Because we repented towards God through faith in Jesus, born again Christians are at the judgement seat of Christ RIGHT NOW, NOT ONLY in the future

Therefore, now that we have become his children, we are declared to be NOT condemned, but we are subject to His correction/chastisement at anytime,...as I did say in post #235

Without the judgment seat of Christ, you are not going to really know who's who in the Kingdom of God - but the time for appearances and pretenses will have passed because the judgment seat of Christ will have made appearances and pretenses ineffective.

I'll be blunt. There are many religious christians in the pulpits, pews and Bible colleges that do NOT HAVE the Holy Spirit.
Though they may not know it, we know them as the "tares".

 

[soberxp]

Jesus has not come yet. Where do you get that idea from that He already came? I mean, He obviously came once long ago, but Him coming like a thief in the night is talking about His return in the future.

What's the point of me saying or not? Anyway, you believe in the future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well IMO your linking the words "for a thousand years, which will be undone for a short period when the thousand years is completed" to Hebrews 2:14-16 and linking it to Satan's deceit of the nations speaks volumes about how long you think it will be that Christ's death and resurrection overcame Satan for.

It also speaks volumes about what you think about Christ's defeat of Satan's power over death, it "lasting only a thousand years and all" (which is what you imply by linking Hebrews 2:14-16 to Revelation 20:1-3).

Your lack of being able to see the ridiculous implications of your linking scriptures together that do not fit together speaks volumes about the reason for your lack of understanding.

Why did you not address what I said about Revelation 20:6 in my post? Can you tell me how those who are alive when Jesus returns will avoid the second death, keeping in mind that Revelation 20:6 says that the second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection?

As for what you said here, I don't think you have any understanding of Hebrews 2:14-15, just like you have no understanding of Revelation 20:1-3.

Jesus taking the power of death away from Satan by means of His own death gave the hope of eternal life after death to people who in Old Testament times had no hope of anything after death and who were in bondage to the fear of death because of that. The gospel of Christ gave the people of the world hope that they never had before. Paul said about the Gentiles of Old Testament times that they were "without Christ" while "having no hope" and being "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). Jesus's death brought them near (Ephesians 2:13) and gave them hope.

The gospel of Christ gives people the hope of eternal life because the power of death was taking away from Satan. But, during Satan's little season, which I believe is the time Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, the gospel is silenced. Wickedness will not be restrained during that time and a mass falling away from the faith will occur. Satan will be allowed a short time to wreak havoc and again be allowed to enslave the world with the fear of death.

What speaks volumes is your lack of understanding of what Christ's death and resurrection accomplished in relation to Satan and your lack of understanding that Satan will get a short time before Jesus returns to go back to having the same kind of power he had before Christ came. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the deceptive activities that go on during that time are "after the working of Satan". So, that shows that Satan's power is restrained before that time and then loosed during that time. Your lack of ability to discern that passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 relate to Satan's little season speaks volumes. You think he will get two little seasons in the future to do as he pleases, but that will not happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope!
Because we repented towards God through faith in Jesus, born again Christians are at the judgement seat of Christ RIGHT NOW, NOT ONLY in the future

Therefore, now that we have become his children, we are declared to be NOT condemned, but we are subject to His correction/chastisement at anytime,...as I did say in post #235

So, you are bowing down to Jesus and giving an account of yourself to Him at His judgment seat right now? How does that work exactly?

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Earburner]

No but Jesus says the same thing to the church in Laodicea that He does to His churches in Revelation 16:15, So if you can explain what Jesus means by "keeping your garments" and what the destiny of the five foolish virgins and of those who never kept their garments is, and why this implies that they once had oil in their lamps and once were clothed with wedding garments (but somehow no longer by the time of the return of Christ),

then maybe you can also explain to me why both groups were found in His church at the time of His return.

Mat. 25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps [biblical doctrine], and took no oil [no Holy Spirit teaching] with them:

4 But the wise took oil [the Holy Spirit in their [earthen] vessels with their lamps [biblical doctrine]. (Please see 2 Cor. 4:7)

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him [the Great Awakening-1800s?].

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed [sought to see more clearly by] their lamps.[Biblical doctrines]

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [understanding by the Holy Spirit]; for our lamps [our biblical doctrines by men] are gone out [give no light].
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough [oil] for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.[through the wisdom of men].

 

[Earburner]

I never said otherwise! Unbelievable...

The fact that you didn't say it, led me to think that you didn't know. Try to take the guess work out of what you say, by saying what you mean more often, and I would view you as being more believable.

 

[Earburner]

So, you are bowing down to Jesus and giving an account of yourself to Him at His judgment seat right now? How does that work exactly?

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

If I had sinned in such away, and bowed my head to the Lord, seeking His forgiveness, I can expect His forgiveness by my repentance.

 

[rvmb]

LOL. You are a child. You have no ability to debate whatsoever. Are you afraid to address what I've already said about this several times? Do you understand that Paul referenced Isaiah 45:22-24 in Romans 14:11? Is there something you don't understand about Isaiah 45:22-24 indicating that even those who are incensed against Jesus having to bow before Him? That's an obvious reference to unbelievers. Do you deny that unbelievers will have to stand before Jesus and confess that He is Lord?

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You said >>>>"""Paul was referring to both believers and unbelievers in Romans 14:10-12""
Rom 14:10.... for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
You believe we = believers and UNbelievers
In that case we in 2 Cor 5:6-10 must also include UNbelievers
You are really clever CeeCee
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Earburner]

All Jesus means is He will come unexpectedly - not only unexpectedly to the unbelievers, but also to the saints - and those who were not ready, waiting and watching for His return, but allowed themselves to be preoccupied with the things of the world and if this life will be caught naked without their wedding garments on.

Every born again Christian IS READY!
They have the Holy Spirit within themselves.
2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure [God Himself] in [our] earthen vessels [mortal bodies] that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[rvmb]

I can tell that you have never studied Romans 14:10-12 closely. Also, do you deny that the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 are unbelievers? They clearly are. It refers to Jesus sitting on His throne for judgment. How can that not be His judgment seat?

Do you understand that Paul was referencing Isaiah 45:22-24 in Romans 14:11?

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Here is the passage Paul is referencing in verse 11...

Isaiah 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

Can you see here that even those "who are incensed against Him" will be appearing before Him and bowing down to Him? That's a clear reference to unbelievers. So, how can you deny that unbelievers will also have to stand before His judgment seat and give an account of themselves while bowing down to Him and confessing that He is Lord? You are not thinking about this carefully at all. I can't force you to see what the text indicates. Just read it and think about what it's saying. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). I'm done with this. You are unteachable.

You said >>>>"""Paul was referring to both believers and unbelievers in Romans 14:10-12""
Rom 14:10.... for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
You believe we = believers and UNbelievers
In that case we in 2 Cor 5:6-10 must also include UNbelievers
>>>>You are really clever CeeCee<<<<<<
2 Cor 5:6-10
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[rvmb]

Absolutely not!! Unbelievers are never shown to be involved with the Judgment Seat of Christ. They refuse to come to Him, as shown in John 3:18; 2 Thes. 1:7-9; Luke 17:28-30; Mat. 13:30. Rev. 9:21.

You are ignorantly confusing the two figurative, spiritual judgments, of which each generate a separate spiritual culmination (climax), but neither are a physical manifestation of a "judging" process.
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ is now, during this present figurative period of 1000 years .
2. The Great White Throne Judgment is upon the 24 hour Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven.
(Again, neither event of a "judging" process take place physically, but rather spiritually/figuratively, in order to generate an outcome/conclusion).

So then,
1. For all faithful born again Christians, WHO HAVE come to Christ, they ARE Eternally saved.
2. For all those that do NOT willing "appear" before Christ  during their lifetime, and refuse to do so, their judgment is total destruction for eternity, without explanation. Aka the GWTJ.

Spiritually, Jesus explained it THOROUGHLY in John 3:18.

STOP making a religious quagmire out of it!!

Spiritual Israelite​

2 Cor 5 :6-10 totally destroys his incorrect WE understanding.
Spirit Israel said >>>>"""Paul was referring to both believers and unbelievers in Romans 14:10-12""
Rom 14:10.... for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
He believes Rom 14:10 we = believers and UNbelievers
In that case we in 2 Cor 5:6-10 must also include UNbelievers according to Spir Isra logic.
2 Cor 5:6-10
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[rvmb]

I can tell that you have never studied Romans 14:10-12 closely. Also, do you deny that the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 are unbelievers? They clearly are. It refers to Jesus sitting on His throne for judgment. How can that not be His judgment seat?

Do you understand that Paul was referencing Isaiah 45:22-24 in Romans 14:11?

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Here is the passage Paul is referencing in verse 11...

Isaiah 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

Can you see here that even those "who are incensed against Him" will be appearing before Him and bowing down to Him? That's a clear reference to unbelievers. So, how can you deny that unbelievers will also have to stand before His judgment seat and give an account of themselves while bowing down to Him and confessing that He is Lord? You are not thinking about this carefully at all. I can't force you to see what the text indicates. Just read it and think about what it's saying. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). I'm done with this. You are unteachable.

>>>>"Also, do you deny that the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 are unbelievers?
At least you got that part right
Now all you have to do is accept that the WE in Rom 14:10 is ONLY believers
Hopefully 2 Cor 5:5-10 clears up your UNBELIEVER = WE error
2 Cor 5:6-10
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fact that you didn't say it, led me to think that you didn't know.

LOL. Are you for real?

Try to take the guess work out of what you say, by saying what you mean more often, and I would view you as being more believable.

Try to learn how to read and not make assumptions and then you won't embarrass yourself by misrepresenting what others believe.