The Ten Commandments modified?!!

[liafailrock]

I'm surprised that this is only being spoken of now. I have been writing of this for years on this forum...I guess my fan base isn't as wife as wide as I thought
That said, that isn't the only change. While it has been recognized over the years by various Protestants, and viewed as an horrendous offense to biblical truth, the failure to recognize the change in the 4th commandment, and the mental gymnastics needed to defend it, is even more horrendous.
Even the council of Trent defeated Luther on that premise, with the bishop spokesman claiming that even Protestants therefore agree with tradition as being a legitimate ground for faith and practise, they themselves practicing Sunday sacredness, a tradition that is the sole creation of the Catholic Church.

I was reading this thread and while others are appalled at the idea of the Catholics merging the first two commandments and then splitting the last, I am equally appalled at the idea that the Sabbath is rationalized away. Both Catholics and Protestants celebrate nine commandments, not 10. But as the Bible says, if you are guilty of breaking one (e.g. the Sabbath) you are guilty of breaking all. But, we must remember that Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So if people despise the Sabbath, I take them to mean.. "I'm a workaholic and not worth enough to take one day off first for God, and then myself..." Of course you have those who come back and then say, "The day is not important." Oh really? Then why does most of Christendom worship on Sunday? What biblically does a weekly Sunday worship mean? (clue: nothing). If the day did not matter, then I would expect some Christians to be worshiping on Tuesdays, others on Fridays, etc etc. But is that what we see? So, one should stop deceiving oneself. The day DOES matter, and it's not the day the Lord picked. I can tolerate those who genuinely believe the day does not matter and thus worship ANY day IN A GATHERING if they interpret the apostle Paul's writings as such. But again, that's not what I see. They go around and say "The day does not matter" and then go on to have their convocations on a Sunday. Yes, it does. Don't lie.

 

[Heart2Soul]

It's a well put together article with detailed explanations, backed up with Protestant sources. It's in reply to your OP: "but I question why is the Catholic Church always the leader of change and reform concerning the written Word of God." That is a rant, and demonstrably false, if you bother to READ my posts rather than REACT.

The prohibitions relating to false worship are not excluded in any version or listing. The charge that Catholics changed the 10 commandments is a stupid conspiracy theory promoted by well-meaning Christians who don't know any better.

The claim is that Catholics “deleted” the Commandment about “graven images” and “idols.” But this is understood (by Augustine, Luther, and Catholics) as included within the first commandment. It’s not excluded. There is merely a “shorthand” to remember the first commandment, in the shorter version, just as “Thou shalt not covet” in the non-Lutheran Protestant versions is shorthand for the longer, more explicit biblical version.

There is no subterfuge here at all. We can go back to the 16th-century Catechism of the Council of Trent to prove this. "“The First Commandment” is written out in a very long form: it covers the entirety of Exodus 20:2-6. This is quite strange if the Council of Trent was in on this conspiracy to keep the Catholic unwashed, ignorant masses ignorant of the basic theology of monotheism and prohibition of idolatry.

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.

www.catholic.com

As to what I know about the Catholic Church is very little...but I am pretty certain the Protestant church came from the Catholic Church.
Regardless of the purpose or reason to alter the 10 commandments, I personally would be terrified of changing anything that was written by the hand of God. And regardless of whether God numbered them or not there are 10 commandments. I am certain they were numbered in the order they were written.

 

[Illuminator]

As regards the behavior of BoL, when I last read their posting it was clear the peace of Christ is absent there.
Perhaps by the language employed and in subsequent posts too no doubt, we may infer we are dealing with a minor child's intellect due to the language and ad homs they employ.

Rather than encourage further derogatory behavior and expression of bad character we might consider holding them in prayer. Rather than proceed further in inviting them to continue down that road.

And for our sake as well. We don't deserve to suffer written personal attacks upon us

The information regarding the RCC are a matter of record.

Your DISINFORMATION and MISREPRENTATIONS are a matter of record. Your mind was already made up BEFORE you walked into the Catholic church. "holding them in prayer", yes, please. I need all the prayers I can get. I'm not a professional apologist, and neither is BofL. Us Catholics are instructed to be patient and charitable at all times. I can't always live up to that requirement because I am a sinner in need of prayers. Last I checked, persecuting ANY faith system you disagree with is NOT a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You're so self-righteous you don't even know your are persecuting us. It's an automatic feature of prejudice. I have to put you on ignore in order that I avoid the near occasion of sin (thinking of punching your foul mouth). Please forgive me.

I prefer to use links in order to avoid flooding the thread with walls of text that few people will read. It's for people who want the truth because our whole culture is in opposition to the CC. Do you think God wants you to be a cog in THAT machine??? Is invincible ignorance a blessing??? St. Augustine once said, "I've met a lot of people who were deceived, but I never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic

Anti-Catholicism (Index Page For Apologist Dave Armstrong)

Collection of papers by Dave Armstrong refuting anti-Catholicism: the absurd, self-defeating notions that Catholicism is not Christianity at all.

www.patheos.com

This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the world’s largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. text and/or videos.

Catholic Faith, Beliefs, & Prayers | Catholic Answers

Explore the Largest Catholic Database: Beliefs, Practices, Articles, Books, Videos.

www.catholic.com

key in your question or topic and click FIND. It's that easy. You may discover 3 things:
1) Almost everything you have read about the CC is false.
2) Everything that is true in your church is found in the CC. (i.e. Jesus is both God and man)
3) We are not your enemy.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Your DISINFORMATION and MISREPRENTATIONS are a matter of record. Your mind was already made up BEFORE you walked into the Catholic church. "holding them in prayer", yes, please. I need all the prayers I can get. I'm not a professional apologist, and neither is BofL. Us Catholics are instructed to be patient and charitable at all times. I can't always live up to that requirement because I am a sinner in need of prayers. Last I checked, persecuting ANY faith system you disagree with is NOT a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You're so self-righteous you don't even know your are persecuting us. It's an automatic feature of prejudice. I have to put you on ignore in order that I avoid the near occasion of sin (thinking of punching your foul mouth). Please forgive me.

I prefer to use links in order to avoid flooding the thread with walls of text that few people will read. It's for people who want the truth because our whole culture is in opposition to the CC. Do you think God want you to be a cog in THAT machine??? Is invincible ignorance a blessing??? St. Augustine once said, "I've met a lot of people who were deceived, but I never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

Futility: Explaining Anti-Catholicism to an Anti-Catholic

Anti-Catholicism (Index Page For Apologist Dave Armstrong)

Collection of papers by Dave Armstrong refuting anti-Catholicism: the absurd, self-defeating notions that Catholicism is not Christianity at all.

www.patheos.com

This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the world’s largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. text and/or videos.

Catholic Faith, Beliefs, & Prayers | Catholic Answers

Explore the Largest Catholic Database: Beliefs, Practices, Articles, Books, Videos.

www.catholic.com

key in your question or topic and click FIND. It's that easy. You may discover 3 things:
1) Almost everything you have read about the CC is false.
2) Everything that is true in your church is found in the CC. (i.e. Jesus is both God and man)
3) We are not your enemy.

I know Roman Catholics. You are mistaken in your slur.

I am not anti-Catholic. Otherwise I would not be friends with Roman Catholics.

I'm informed by them and the practices of their church.
There's no false information on my part.

That you consider yourself to be a sinner has my deepest sympathy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Relics is another matter in the RCC that I find to be grotesque as pertains to veneration of their dead saints body parts.

I believe it was Constantine's mother, perhaps wife, that sought throughout the world such things to obtain and bring into the church.

Yet another practice not at all taught by Jesus.

This show how little you know of Scripture . . .

Relics have been a part of the people of God since the beginning.
The bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life:

2 Kgs. 13:20-21
“So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet”

You anti-Catholics are fond of claiming that the Early Church wasn’t Catholic.
St. Polycarp – a Bishop – was martyred by being burned at the stake.

In the written account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156 - the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake:
“We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom.”

The woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22)

Sick people who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16).

Acts 19:11-12 explicitly states:
“And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them”.

The fact that YOU disapprove of something that God approves of – speaks VOLIMES about you . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I know Roman Catholics. You are mistaken in your slur.

I am not anti-Catholic. Otherwise I would not be friends with Roman Catholics.

I'm informed by them and the practices of their church.
There's no false information on my part.

That you consider yourself to be a sinner has my deepest sympathy.

That's like the racist who claims he's NOT a racist because he works with a black guy . . .

The reason you’re a liar is because with the internet – ALL of our teachings are available on the Vatican website on the Catechism pages. Every encyclical, every Ex Cathedra statement – every document – everything.
Yet, YOU choose to perpetuate filthy LIES because that suits you better than the truth.

Here are a few excerpts of your garbage from post #22, which you conveniently attribute to a “Catholic friend: -

“ . . Paganism is impossible to miss! Idols. Necromancy “

“”. . . he pagan temple erected over top of a pagan graveyard in Rome.”

“. . . False! The RCC is false. The neo-evolution of Christo-Paganism. T “

“ . . . a cult wherein a sovereign nation, Holy See, is ruled by the dictator pope who is a new age rendering of Caesar”

Would you care to substantiate any of this?
As I pointed out earlier – you don’t even understand what “Necromancy” is – let alone “Paganism” . . .

 

[Mr E]

I believe the problem stems from the fact the majority of Catholics are initiated into the church begins as infants.
By the time they reach adulthood they're fully indoctrinated into the RCC's ideology.


Those I know also went through the RCC school system.

After all that programming the only thing that will bring them to the knowledge of the truth is God working on their heart to bring him into their grace.

Relics is another matter in the RCC that I find to be grotesque as pertains to veneration of their dead saints body parts.

I believe it was Constantine's mother, perhaps wife, that sought throughout the world such things to obtain and bring into the church.

Yet another practice not at all taught by Jesus.

As parents we think we are doing a good thing to put kids in Sunday School, in Catholic or Christian schools and to instruct them young in the ways that we ourselves may have been taught. It can be unfortunate.

It can be like a little virus we inject them with, that keeps them from catching the real thing and it might take many years for them to get it out of their system. Who knows what damage is done when the Christian inoculation is nothing more than indoctrination.

 

[Ziggy]

I was reading this thread and while others are appalled at the idea of the Catholics merging the first two commandments and then splitting the last, I am equally appalled at the idea that the Sabbath is rationalized away. Both Catholics and Protestants celebrate nine commandments, not 10. But as the Bible says, if you are guilty of breaking one (e.g. the Sabbath) you are guilty of breaking all. But, we must remember that Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So if people despise the Sabbath, I take them to mean.. "I'm a workaholic and not worth enough to take one day off first for God, and then myself..." Of course you have those who come back and then say, "The day is not important." Oh really? Then why does most of Christendom worship on Sunday? What biblically does a weekly Sunday worship mean? (clue: nothing). If the day did not matter, then I would expect some Christians to be worshiping on Tuesdays, others on Fridays, etc etc. But is that what we see? So, one should stop deceiving oneself. The day DOES matter, and it's not the day the Lord picked. I can tolerate those who genuinely believe the day does not matter and thus worship ANY day IN A GATHERING if they interpret the apostle Paul's writings as such. But again, that's not what I see. They go around and say "The day does not matter" and then go on to have their convocations on a Sunday. Yes, it does. Don't lie.

Hello,
Tradition. Most people are brought up one way.

Jesus fed multitudes, we don't know what day it was but they were hungry and he fed them.
Jesus healed on many days including the Sabbath which got the Jews who lived by tradition very angry. But he healed them nevertheless.
Not because Jesus was a workaholic and didn't feel he could afford a day off.
It was because it was His way of life.

Some say this day some say that day, but it's by tradition not need.
The Sabbath should be a way of life, and everyday someone needs healing or encouragement or to be fed either physically or spiritually.
Most people are burdened and heavy laden all days of the week.
God set a day aside for those to rest who had just come out of great bondage having no rest for 400 years.
God gave them rest freely.
It reminds me of the part where Jesus' disciples are asking why they do not fast like the Pharisees, and Jesus said the Pharisees fast and disfigure their faces to be seen of others of their dedication and devotion. He also said that in this life they have their reward.
I don't believe the Sabbath should be a particular display but rather when the need arises it is adddressed on any day of the week.
Jesus didn't come to "rest" on the Sabbath day, on the contrary he worked to give others rest.
Isn't that what we were called to do also?
I can't help you today because it is Saturday or Sunday and by tradition I am required to abide by the law.
I didn't hear Jesus say that. I heard that whatever day a need arises, if we are walking as he walked, then no day is not a good day to do the works God gave us to do.

I don't believe it is about a particular day, but rather a way of life.

Hugs

 

[ButterflyJones]

As parents we think we are doing a good thing to put kids in Sunday School, in Catholic or Christian schools and to instruct them young in the ways that we ourselves may have been taught. It can be unfortunate.

It can be like a little virus we inject them with, that keeps them from catching the real thing and it might take many years for them to get it out of their system. Who knows what damage is done when the Christian inoculation is nothing more than indoctrination.

I knew a woman who was devoted to the RCC. Unfortunately, she was a terrible person and parent. Verbally and physically abusive to her children whom she believed were her responsibility to attain their crowns in heaven. She justified her abuse as necessary to that end.

Her children were terrified of her temper even as adults. Because she not only would hold a grudge against those who made her angry, she'd also command her children to assume the same grudge against whomever she targeted. Even among their siblings.


Her daughter angered her once by living her own life and refusing to concede to her mother's wishes. Her mother learning of this called all the woman's sisters and brothers, her children, and told them to ignore Karen's existence. Don't take her calls, help her if she asks, nothing of the like.

They obeyed because if they didn't they knew her next calls would be about them.

A dreadful woman and a horribly selfish parent.

But she was proud to call herself a good Catholic.
Protestant or Catholic, only God changes hearts and minds. Absent that, assuming a label is not and can never be a substitute.

We shall know them by their fruits. I. E what they display when calling themselves by his name.

From experience I know when in the presence of a true born again believer, there's a feeling, a presence that surrounds them. Like an invisible coat,aura, that radiates like heat.

Hard to describe in words however, when in that presence of one indwelt by Holy Spirit God, even if one is not in the faith I expect, that radiance is impossible to miss.

Walking into a structure, a building also called a church, when Christ's true church is the individual and the assembly of Christ's own, where that radiance is gathered as a number of persons is an unforgettable experience.
It's like coming home and never wanting to leave that assembly, Eklesia.

It provides an experiential understanding of the passage that tells the Christian, we are in the Spirit of Christ. In world but not of the world.
Glorious.
And it cannot be faked. You'll know it when you become his. And when gathered together in one name.

The greatest name in creation and eternity.



I really have to work on making shorter posts.

 

[Illuminator]

As to what I know about the Catholic Church is very little...but I am pretty certain the Protestant church came from the Catholic Church.

I'm pretty certain the Protestant church separated from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

Regardless of the purpose or reason to alter the 10 commandments, I personally would be terrified of changing anything that was written by the hand of God. And regardless of whether God numbered them or not there are 10 commandments.

It's been proven the 10 Commandments have not been altered or changed because the content is still there, no matter what numbers game you play. The Septuagint isn't wrong. Augustine isn't wrong. Luther's catechism isn't wrong. The CCC isn't wrong.

I am certain they were numbered in the order they were written.

We've been over that. Twice. There is nothing unbiblical or heretical about organizing the commandments differently. What works for you is fine by me because I know, no matter how one wishes to slice and dice, the content is still there. Nothing has changed or been deleted. . It's the LIE of "deletion to justify idolatry" that is stupid and offensive. That's the real issue, isn't it?

 

[Illuminator]

I knew a woman who was devoted to the RCC. Unfortunately, she was a terrible person and parent. Verbally and physically abusive to her children whom she believed were her responsibility to attain their crowns in heaven. She justified her abuse as necessary to that end.

Her children were terrified of her temper even as adults. Because she not only would hold a grudge against those who made her angry, she'd also command her children to assume the same grudge against whomever she targeted. Even among their siblings.


Her daughter angered her once by living her own life and refusing to concede to her mother's wishes. Her mother learning of this called all the woman's sisters and brothers, her children, and told them to ignore Karen's existence. Don't take her calls, help her if she asks, nothing of the like.

They obeyed because if they didn't they knew her next calls would be about them.

A dreadful woman and a horribly selfish parent.

But she was proud to call herself a good Catholic.
Protestant or Catholic, only God changes hearts and minds. Absent that, assuming a label is not and can never be a substitute.

We shall know them by their fruits. I. E what they display when calling themselves by his name.

From experience I know when in the presence of a true born again believer, there's a feeling, a presence that surrounds them. Like an invisible coat,aura, that radiates like heat.

Why is it so necessary for you to judge all of Catholicism by comparing one of its worst members with a true born again believer?
Is that fair???
How would you like it if I compared St. Francis of Assisi or St. Mother Teresa with your worst "born again believer"???

​

For Catholics: How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead? SOURCE GARY HOGE Several people wrote to me recently to express their skepticism about Catholicism based on their experience with actual Catholics. Most of the Catholics I know don’t take it seriously. They’re worldly and secular and they...

longhaircareforum.com

@Webers_Home , take note.

 

[Mr E]

Why is it so necessary for you to judge all of Catholicism by comparing one of its worst members with a true born again believer?
Is that fair???
How would you like it if I compared St. Francis of Assisi or St. Mother Teresa with your worst "born again believer"???

View attachment 29721
​

For Catholics: How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead? SOURCE GARY HOGE Several people wrote to me recently to express their skepticism about Catholicism based on their experience with actual Catholics. Most of the Catholics I know don’t take it seriously. They’re worldly and secular and they...

longhaircareforum.com

@Webers_Home , take note.

Catholics follow their leaders as do other sects and denominations.

In your next breath if anyone mentions some misconduct of some particular pope, you’ll stomp your feet and demand that Catholics not be judged by their leadership.

 

[Ziggy]

Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Sis the people believe in the image on the pole or God's word?

Num 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Was it the serpent that healed them or the people who had faith in God's word?

2Ki 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

What happened to their faith in God's word? It became a tradition and no longer had any power.

I was born into Catholicism only until I made my first communion. I later joined a Southern Baptist church around the age of 18.
I've attended many other denominations in my almost 58 years of life but I don't belong to any of them.
I believe God's church is on earth as it is in heaven but not consolidated under a particular roof.

There will always be division. Always one saying this way is the only way. I don't believe that.
I believe the right way is the way God plants his seed in your own heart to follow and not any other man's way to lead you.
Throughout the OT the Jews kept falling away after other gods and other idols. They worshipped them as if they had the power of the gods in them.
They were reprimanded many times and even punished with famines and wars, to prove that the power of God does not reside in images made with mans hands.
I understand Catholics do not have this admiration or devotion to images. I like to believe they do not put their hope and faith in idols which can not see or hear or speak and have no life within themselves.
What I don't understand is why they have them to begin with, knowing that in time that understanding can become a very slippery slope for a new generation that does not understand.

History repeats itself. And one day a new generation will only understand idolatry and they will forget to have hope and faith in the one that does see and does hear and does speak and holds all life within himself.

Act 17:22
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Act 17:23
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Act 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Act 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Someday there will come a time when that fiery serpent on the pole will have to be removed, so the people will understand to put their hope and faith in more than images, they will have to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

There is a reason for each denomination to be in it's place in this time in this age.
Some are true and some are false. Some are blended with some truth and some lies.
It's up to the individual to follow what has been placed in their heart.

We are not here to judge one another's depth of faith, we are here to hold each other up when the scales fall off.
Psa 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

And as the discussion continues, the elephant is ignored. The Catholic Church, by its own admission, did change the 4th commandment from the 7th day to the 1st, believing she had the authority to do so. There are a number of reasons why this was done and how it came about, nevertheless the truth remains, there is no biblical justification for setting aside God's Sabbath day. The 7th day is still blessed, still sanctified, still set aside for holy use, still set apart from all other days of the week by God's own declaration at creation... Any day of the week... Sunday... Spiritual "rest in Christ"... Whatever reason one comes up with for disobeying the 4th commandment is merely human reasoning and the preference of tradition over truth and God's explicit instruction.
You decide if the Catholic Church has the authority to change God's Commandments. Will you rationalize and honor a day established by man, or humbly accept the word of God and submit to His authority over your life?

 

[Mr E]

And as the discussion continues, the elephant is ignored. The Catholic Church, by its own admission, did change the 4th commandment from the 7th day to the 1st, believing she had the authority to do so. There are a number of reasons why this was done and how it came about, nevertheless the truth remains, there is no biblical justification for setting aside God's Sabbath day. The 7th day is still blessed, still sanctified, still set aside for holy use, still set apart from all other days of the week by God's own declaration at creation... Any day of the week... Sunday... Spiritual "rest in Christ"... Whatever reason one comes up with for disobeying the 4th commandment is merely human reasoning and the preference of tradition over truth and God's explicit instruction.
You decide if the Catholic Church has the authority to change God's Commandments. Will you rationalize and honor a day established by man, or humbly accept the word of God and submit to His authority over your life?

And 500 hundred years after that pole had done it's job, there were people bowing down in front of it in worship.

Removed it was... in King Hezekiah's reforms-

He also demolished the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been offering incense to it; it was called Nehushtan.

Most fascinating is that Jesus said of himself--- I'm just like that Nehushtan. (John 3:14)

Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

I knew a woman who was devoted to the RCC. Unfortunately, she was a terrible person and parent. Verbally and physically abusive to her children whom she believed were her responsibility to attain their crowns in heaven. She justified her abuse as necessary to that end.

Her children were terrified of her temper even as adults. Because she not only would hold a grudge against those who made her angry, she'd also command her children to assume the same grudge against whomever she targeted. Even among their siblings.

Her daughter angered her once by living her own life and refusing to concede to her mother's wishes. Her mother learning of this called all the woman's sisters and brothers, her children, and told them to ignore Karen's existence. Don't take her calls, help her if she asks, nothing of the like.

They obeyed because if they didn't they knew her next calls would be about them.

A dreadful woman and a horribly selfish parent.

But she was proud to call herself a good Catholic.
Protestant or Catholic, only God changes hearts and minds. Absent that, assuming a label is not and can never be a substitute.

We shall know them by their fruits. I. E what they display when calling themselves by his name.

From experience I know when in the presence of a true born again believer, there's a feeling, a presence that surrounds them. Like an invisible coat,aura, that radiates like heat.

Hard to describe in words however, when in that presence of one indwelt by Holy Spirit God, even if one is not in the faith I expect, that radiance is impossible to miss.

Walking into a structure, a building also called a church, when Christ's true church is the individual and the assembly of Christ's own, where that radiance is gathered as a number of persons is an unforgettable experience.
It's like coming home and never wanting to leave that assembly, Eklesia.

It provides an experiential understanding of the passage that tells the Christian, we are in the Spirit of Christ. In world but not of the world.
Glorious.
And it cannot be faked. You'll know it when you become his. And when gathered together in one name.

The greatest name in creation and eternity.

I really have to work on making shorter posts.

The fact that this woman may have been a Catholic had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she was a rotten person.

Some of the worst people I've ever known claimed to be faithful Protestant Christians. I don't hold their denominations responsible for THEIR behavior.

That's the problem with people like you. You foolishly paint everybody with the same broad brush because - like every other bigot.

 

[Brakelite]

And 500 hundred years after that pole had done it's job, there were people bowing down in front of it in worship.

Removed it was... in King Hezekiah's reforms-

He also demolished the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been offering incense to it; it was called Nehushtan.

Most fascinating is that Jesus said of himself--- I'm just like that Nehushtan. (John 3:14)

Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

You replied to the wrong post, but you are right. Hezekiah reduced what had become an idol into scrap metal.
The Catholics here though would suggest that burning incense before it was merely asking it to pray for you. What they fail to realize, due to other false doctrines, is that there isn't anyone in heaven yet that can pray for anyone. Unless the resurrection has taken place already... Have I missed it?

 

[Ziggy]

Whatever reason one comes up with for disobeying the 4th commandment is merely human reasoning and the preference of tradition over truth and God's explicit instruction.

The Pharisees said the same thing to Jesus.
Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden and I will give thee rest.
And Lo, I am with you always.
Jesus is the Sabbath God gave man to rest in.
or God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This IS that Sabbath of rest that God GAVE to mankind.
Just as Jacob's well could not satisfy one's thirst, One day of the week can not satisfy ones soul.
It's like people that go to church on Sunday morning all righteous that they are keeping the day for the Lord, and then go out and do whatever they wish the other 6 days of the week, only to return again to their self righteousness.
It is a form of hypocrisy, no?

If it is in your heart to keep a certain day by all means keep it.
I myself am at peace and resting with Jesus every day.
I don't even have a calendar. And most days all blend in together so much so I sometimes don't know what day of the week it is, or sometimes even the month.

Thou shalt honour thy father and mother.... one day or everyday?
Thou shalt not lie or steal... one day or every day?
Thou shalt not commit adultery... one day or everyday?
Thou shalt not kill or covet thy neighbors goods... one day or everyday?
Thou shalt Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and mind and soul... one day or everyday?

I believe in my heart the Sabbath Day is an everlasting day to the one who rests in it.

I understand the commandment to keep it. I just believe it is much more than a day to observe, rather it is a way of daily life.
Shalom
Hugs

 

[BreadOfLife]

And as the discussion continues, the elephant is ignored. The Catholic Church, by its own admission, did change the 4th commandment from the 7th day to the 1st, believing she had the authority to do so. There are a number of reasons why this was done and how it came about, nevertheless the truth remains, there is no biblical justification for setting aside God's Sabbath day. The 7th day is still blessed, still sanctified, still set aside for holy use, still set apart from all other days of the week by God's own declaration at creation... Any day of the week... Sunday... Spiritual "rest in Christ"... Whatever reason one comes up with for disobeying the 4th commandment is merely human reasoning and the preference of tradition over truth and God's explicit instruction.
You decide if the Catholic Church has the authority to change God's Commandments. Will you rationalize and honor a day established by man, or humbly accept the word of God and submit to His authority over your life?

There you go again whining about the Sabbath – because you have NO understanding of God’s fulfillment of prophetic shadows and it has made you a 1-Trick-Pony . . .

The Church didn’t “change” the Sabbath. The Sabbath was FULFILLED in Jesus Christ:
Col. 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon OR A SABBATH. These are a SHADO of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even HE stated this to the Pharisees:
Matt. 12:7-8
“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

It was a SHADOW of things to come, whereas HE is the reality.

And the Church didn’t change the CONTENT or the ORDER of the Commandments either. I laid it ALL out in post #20.
I’ve seen a LOT of whining since that post – but NOBODY has actually challenged one IOTA of what I wrote . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Sis the people believe in the image on the pole or God's word?

The bottom line here is: you can't stand the fact that people were healed by looking at a physical object, so you draw a false dichotomy between Moses and God's word. People did what Moses told them to and they got healed. Get over it.

Num 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Was it the serpent that healed them or the people who had faith in God's word?

2Ki 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

What happened to their faith in God's word? It became a tradition and no longer had any power.

Wrong. King Hezekiah had the bronze serpent destroyed because they worshipped it as an idol. They lost the original meaning, just like anti-Catholic iconoclasts lose the meaning of Sacred Scripture in art form. Show me in the Bible where THAT is forbidden. Chapter and verse; explicit proof text please, or stop with the man made tradition of radical iconoclasm.

Logically, an image of your grandmother on your wall is not an idol. The image represents your grandmother, in honor of your grandmother. The image itself is not your grandmother. An image of Jesus is not Jesus. It represents Jesus. It's not that hard to understand.